The sign of the Cross/ Spiritual Weapon or attention getter?

[Fidelibus]

To be certain, we have much in common, but I also have much in common with my Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox friends and that does not make me Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, does it?

Nope, as long as you are protesting against the Catholic Church, it still makes you Protestant.

Again.........

"By whose or what AUTHORITY (names ?) in the non-denominational sects decides what teachings of the Reformers like Sola Scriptua, Sola fide, ect. are to be followed, and others like making the sign of the Cross, the veneration of Mary, Mary's Perpetual Virginity, ect. are to be ignored, and when did this take place? (dates?)"

 

[bbbbbbb]

Nope, as long as you are protesting against the Catholic Church, it still makes you Protestant.

Again.........

"By whose or what AUTHORITY (names ?) in the non-denominational sects decides what teachings of the Reformers like Sola Scriptua, Sola fide, ect. are to be followed, and others like making the sign of the Cross, the veneration of Mary, Mary's Perpetual Virginity, ect. are to be ignored, and when did this take place? (dates?)"

It must not have been significant, because nobody seems to have had enough interest to record it for us.

 

[Fidelibus]

It must not have been significant, because nobody seems to have had enough interest to record it for us.

And you don't find nothing wrong with it? Wow!

Like I've said before, and as you have just found out...... history is not your churches friend.

 

[bbbbbbb]

And you don't find nothing wrong with it? Wow!

Like I've said before, and as you have just found out...... history is not your churches friend.

Nor does history seem to be your Church's (churches is plural for church and is not possessive, but, then, grammar and spelling do not seem to be your friends) friend either. Your own Church's history, which has been recorded for all humanity to read, is really hardly anything to brag about.

 

[Fidelibus]

Nor does history seem to be your Church's (churches is plural for church and is not possessive, but, then, grammar and spelling do not seem to be your friends) friend either.

Ha..ha... churches is exactly what I was talking about 7-b. How many different non-denominational churches do you think there are in say,,,,,,,, the U.S. alone?

So you see 7-b, there was no need to toss flaming zingers criticizing my grammer just because your "Church's/Churches" history (good or bad) is limited.

Your own Church's history, which has been recorded for all humanity to read, is really hardly anything to brag about.

You are correct, being the Catholic Church is the longest-enduring institution in the world, (2000 plus yrs.) there is going to be some bad history. What always amazes me though, is that fundamentalists as yourself alway focus on the negative and never on the many good things the Catholic Church has brought upon the world, like being the largest charitable organization on earth for one.

How about you start a new thread comparing your churches/church's postive accomplishments to the world compared to the Catholic Church's. Which reminds me, what is the name of your non-denominational church? When was it founded? And by whom? I hope you don't respond with silence like so many others when asked these simple questions.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Ha..ha... churches is exactly what I was talking about 7-b. How many different non-denominational churches do you think there are in say,,,,,,,, the U.S. alone?

So you see 7-b, there was no need to toss flaming zingers criticizing my grammer just because your "Church's/Churches" history (good or bad) is limited.

You are correct, being the Catholic Church is the longest-enduring institution in the world, (2000 plus yrs.) there is going to be some bad history. What always amazes me though, is that fundamentalists as yourself alway focus on the negative and never on the many good things the Catholic Church has brought upon the world, like being the largest charitable organization on earth for one.

How about you start a new thread comparing your churches/church's postive accomplishments to the world compared to the Catholic Church's. Which reminds me, what is the name of your non-denominational church? When was it founded? And by whom? I hope you don't respond with silence like so many others when asked these simple questions.

Your knowledge of history also seems to be quite limited. Judaism, Hinduism in its many branches, Bhuddism in its many varied branches, and Zoroastrianism, to mention but four major religions all vastly predate Christianity in its many varied branches.

 

[Fidelibus]

Your knowledge of history also seems to be quite limited. Judaism, Hinduism in its many branches, Bhuddism in its many varied branches, and Zoroastrianism, to mention but four major religions all vastly predate Christianity in its many varied branches.

Nice attempt at a dodge 7-b, but you very well know we are talking about Christianity. Sheesh!

Sooooo.... could you please stop running long enough to answer what I asked.

Which reminds me, what is the name of your non-denominational church? When was it founded? And by whom? I hope you don't respond with silence like so many others when asked these simple questions.

p.s. Have you given it any thought about starting a new thread comparing your churches/church's positive accomplishments to the world compared to the Catholic Church's?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Nice attempt at a dodge 7-b, but you very well know we are talking about Christianity. Sheesh!

Sooooo.... could you please stop running long enough to answer what I asked.

p.s. Have you given it any thought about starting a new thread comparing your churches/church's positive accomplishments to the world compared to the Catholic Church's?

To answer your questions.

High Point Bible Chapel
1937 (when was your parish founded?)
Founded by God
No

 

[Fidelibus]

To answer your questions. High Point Bible Chapel

Nice name, who came up with it?

1937 (when was your parish founded?)

Well, history shows the visible Church I belong to was established by Jesus Christ, over two thousand years ago. The parish I attend has been around since 1923, but my family have only been attending this parish since 1949. We are already preparing for our for our parish Golden Jubilee.

Founded by God

Soooooo.... we are to just take your word for that, or can you show any proof?

Which brings something to mind. What if the non-denominational church on the other side of town from your High Point Bible Chapel also claims to be founded by God, but it's teachings on a certain bible passage contradicts what your Pastor and church teaches. Now if both your church, and this other church claim to be founded by God, which of the two are in error, the High Point Bible Chapel, or the other non-denom church?

No

Any reason why?

 

[Fidelibus]

To try and steer this thread back on track, I'd like to make a couple of observations, and red folk's views on them. Now I would hope that Catholics and Protestants agree that the cross is a unique symbol of Christianity. Right? For example, I've see seen the cross on bibles, pulpits, steeples, and car bumpers of Protestants and Catholics alike.

Being this is the case, and what I don't understand is why most Protestants (not all) reject the idea of placing the sign of the cross upon themselves. Why is that? Is it because of the Reformation principle of sola scriptura? History shows that even Martin Luther urged his followers to use the sign. In his Catechism of 1529 he instructed fathers to teach their households the following: "In the morning, when you rise from bed, sign yourself with the holy cross and say, 'In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.'...At night, when you go to bed, sign yourself with the holy cross and say, 'In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.'"

So when in Protestant history, and by whom was the making the sign of the cross on oneself taught it is to be rejected?

Thank you for your responces in advance

 

[bbbbbbb]

bbbbbbb said: ↑
To answer your questions. High Point Bible Chapel
Nice name, who came up with it?
The elders of the church named it after the subdivision in which the chapel is located.

1937 (when was your parish founded?)
Well, history shows the visible Church I belong to was established by Jesus Christ, over two thousand years ago. The parish I attend has been around since 1923, but my family have only been attending this parish since 1949. We are already preparing for our for our parish Golden Jubilee.
Okay. So your parish is slightly older than mine. Will it actually be a Golden Jubilee and not a centennial celebration?

Founded by God
Soooooo.... we are to just take your word for that, or can you show any proof?
Of course. Jesus Christ Himself has promised to be where two or three are gathered in His name (Matthew 18:19,20)

Which brings something to mind. What if the non-denominational church on the other side of town from your High Point Bible Chapel also claims to be founded by God, but it's teachings on a certain bible passage contradicts what your Pastor and church teaches. Now if both your church, and this other church claim to be founded by God, which of the two are in error, the High Point Bible Chapel, or the other non-denom church?
Fortunately, we do not have a pastor, so that eliminates one issue. Nor do we claim to be infallible. Thus, we recognize other churches, including your own, as having been founded by God.


No
Any reason why?
Yes. It would serve no real purpose other than to lead to further arguments.

 

[bbbbbbb]

To try and steer this thread back on track, I'd like to make a couple of observations, and red folk's views on them. Now I would hope that Catholics and Protestants agree that the cross is a unique symbol of Christianity. Right? For example, I've see seen the cross on bibles, pulpits, steeples, and car bumpers of Protestants and Catholics alike.

Being this is the case, and what I don't understand is why most Protestants (not all) reject the idea of placing the sign of the cross upon themselves. Why is that? Is it because of the Reformation principle of sola scriptura? History shows that even Martin Luther urged his followers to use the sign. In his Catechism of 1529 he instructed fathers to teach their households the following: "In the morning, when you rise from bed, sign yourself with the holy cross and say, 'In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.'...At night, when you go to bed, sign yourself with the holy cross and say, 'In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.'"

So when in Protestant history, and by whom was the making the sign of the cross on oneself taught it is to be rejected?

Thank you for your responces in advance

I am not aware that any of the Protestant churches ever made a concerted decision to reject this practice. There were, and are, various iconoclasts within Protestantism who reject all images as being a violation of the second commandment and that includes crucifixes as well as empty crosses.

I think folks ceased this practice because it serves no particular purpose.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Recently after Mass, my fiance' and I stopped for breakfast. As usual, we cross ourselves before giving thanks to God for our breakfast. A short time later, this Evangelical Christian lady come up to our table and said, " You two must be Catholics" and I said yes we were. She goes on to say she thought so because we crossed ourselves, and that only Catholics do it.

She also asked why we cross ourselves. When I explained why, as I did in my opening statement here, she just rolled her eyes and said that she thinks the only reason Catholics do it is to bring attention to themselves. When I told her that was not the case at all, she just huffed and puffed as she walked away saying she would never dream of doing such a thing, in public no less.

Ignorant, disrespectful people are everywhere. One is probably generally benefited by wiping the dust off one's shoes and continue on, praying and hoping that the Spirit will continue to work in and upon such people.

I also can't help but note the irony of making a scene in a public place and then accusing others, quietly minding their own business, of trying to bring attention to themselves.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Like putting your hands together and closing your eyes while bowing it is a physical expression of the inward spirit. It is a recollection of the cross for even the laziest of those who pray and reminder of just what it took for us to receive the gifts from God that we have.

If other people see it, then fine, if the person is doing it for attention God knows and they themselves know their own impure motives. Yet if they do it out of a sincere desire to pray and people happen to see it, it is good and testifies to a specific belief of the individual.

 

[Fidelibus]

Making the sign of a cross with one's hand is probably not much different than wearing a cross on a necklace around one's neck. The only difficulty I see is that, in certain cases, such practices become superstitions. It has not been that long ago when very devout Catholics felt the necessity of wearing St. Christopher's medals or having a statuette of the saint in their car to provide protection from accidents.

Fr. Vincent Serpa O.P. from 'Catholic Answers.com believes different and actually refutes your belief.

"It would be a matter of superstition if we believed that a piece of metal had the power to protect us from harm. But this not what we believe. It is only the power of God that can protect us. It so happens that at times God has revealed either directly or through one of his saints that he will grant protection or healing by the wearing of a medal that represents our faith in his love for us."

Remember 7-b..... History...... Look at history! Something 'High Point Bible Chapel' doesn't have much of. (compared to the Catholic Church that is)

The practice of wearing devotional medals began very early in the history of the Church. (The Catholic Church) Archeologists have discovered one medal bearing images of Saints Peter and Paul that from the second century. They have found another medal portraying a martyr, probably Saint Lawrence that is from the 300s. The medal shows the martyr being roasted over a fire on a grill.There are many other medals dating from the period of the 300s through the 700s. In the later part of the Roman Empire, after the emperors had become Christian, there are many coins that were stamped with the image of Christ or with the chrismon, the white gown worn by children in baptism signifying cleansing from sin. Scholars are certain that many of these coins were used as devotional medals.


In the use of religious medals, the early Church redefined the pagan practice of wearing amulets, pieces of metal or other material that were thought to ward off evil or disease. The Church sanctified the practice, removing the perception that the charm had "power" and replacing that with the understanding that wearing a medal is intended to remind the wearer of the power of Jesus in their life. Within the Church the practice of wearing medals for religious reasons reminds Christians of their bond with Jesus Christ. One example of this is from the 400s when Saint Germain gave to the young Saint Genevieve a medal of the sign of the cross as a remembrance of her vow of virginity.

On that topic, it is still common in my area for Catholics to use statuettes of St. Joseph to perform all manner of tricks.

Any person having a serious claim to the Catholic faith should disavow such practices. I sure do. In fact, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, No. 2111 says, “Superstition is the deviation of religious feeling and of the practices this feeling imposes. It can even affect the worship we offer the true God, e.g., when one attributes an importance in some way magical to certain practices otherwise lawful or necessary. To attribute the efficacy of prayers or of sacramental signs to their mere external performance, apart from the interior dispositions that they demand, is to fall into superstition.”

I've only heard of this being considerd one time when I overheard a parishioner ask our Priest about the practice, and Fr. responded "If you really would like St.Joseph's help in selling your house, Then go about it the right way. Ask for his intercession with God on your behalf. No burying of his statue."

With that 7-b, please try to stay on the topic of "The Sign of the Cross."

 

[bbbbbbb]

Fr. Vincent Serpa O.P. from 'Catholic Answers.com believes different and actually refutes your belief.

Remember 7-b..... History...... Look at history! Something 'High Point Bible Chapel' doesn't have much of. (compared to the Catholic Church that is)

The practice of wearing devotional medals began very early in the history of the Church. (The Catholic Church) Archeologists have discovered one medal bearing images of Saints Peter and Paul that from the second century. They have found another medal portraying a martyr, probably Saint Lawrence that is from the 300s. The medal shows the martyr being roasted over a fire on a grill.There are many other medals dating from the period of the 300s through the 700s. In the later part of the Roman Empire, after the emperors had become Christian, there are many coins that were stamped with the image of Christ or with the chrismon, the white gown worn by children in baptism signifying cleansing from sin. Scholars are certain that many of these coins were used as devotional medals.

In the use of religious medals, the early Church redefined the pagan practice of wearing amulets, pieces of metal or other material that were thought to ward off evil or disease. The Church sanctified the practice, removing the perception that the charm had "power" and replacing that with the understanding that wearing a medal is intended to remind the wearer of the power of Jesus in their life. Within the Church the practice of wearing medals for religious reasons reminds Christians of their bond with Jesus Christ. One example of this is from the 400s when Saint Germain gave to the young Saint Genevieve a medal of the sign of the cross as a remembrance of her vow of virginity.

Any person having a serious claim to the Catholic faith should disavow such practices. I sure do. In fact, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, No. 2111 says, “Superstition is the deviation of religious feeling and of the practices this feeling imposes. It can even affect the worship we offer the true God, e.g., when one attributes an importance in some way magical to certain practices otherwise lawful or necessary. To attribute the efficacy of prayers or of sacramental signs to their mere external performance, apart from the interior dispositions that they demand, is to fall into superstition.”

I've only heard of this being considerd one time when I overheard a parishioner ask our Priest about the practice, and Fr. responded "If you really would like St.Joseph's help in selling your house, Then go about it the right way. Ask for his intercession with God on your behalf. No burying of his statue."

With that 7-b, please try to stay on the topic of "The Sign of the Cross."

I am pleased that you admit that the practice of burying a statue of St. Joseph to aid in the rapid sale of property is not only known to you, but was confirmed by another sincere Catholic in your presence. My friend and her husband are quite sincere and genuine in their faith and I am sorry that they did not have the benefit of going to your priest prior to their going to the monastery in Missouri where they purchased their statue.

Now, back to the topic of the thread. Please tell me all the reasons one ought to be making a sign of the cross with one's hands. Thus far I have gleaned the following reasons -

1. It is effective in spiritual warfare (undefined).
2. It is an outward display of one's piety.
3. It impresses people in restaurants.

I am sure there must be more reasons. Please tell me. Thank you.

 

[Fidelibus]

I am pleased that you admit that the practice of burying a statue of St. Joseph to aid in the rapid sale of property is not only known to you, but was confirmed by another sincere Catholic in your presence.

I am pleased you are warming up to Saintly Intercession with God on our behalf.

Now, back to the topic of the thread. Please tell me all the reasons one ought to be making a sign of the cross with one's hands.

First off 7-b, it's 'hand', singular. Secondly, the Sign of the Cross is not simply an action but a prayer in itself. Not only that, just like Holy Water, Rosaries, and Medals, ect. it is a Sacramental.

Thus far I have gleaned the following reasons -

Okay

1. It is effective in spiritual warfare (undefined).

Undefined? Really? I thought Catholics on this thread have defined it clearly. In case you've missed it, in the Sign of the Cross, we profess the deepest mysteries of the Christian Faith: the Trinity....Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--and the saving work of Christ on the Cross on Good Friday. The combination of the words and the action are a creed—a statement of belief. We mark ourselves as Christians through the Sign of the Cross.

2. It is an outward display of one's piety.

Surley you are not suggesting that one's devotion to worship God is a bad thing?

3. It impresses people in restaurants.

Nope.... it has nothing to do with "impressing" other people. Do you not pray (witness your faith) in public, say before a meal at restaurants? For Catholics, the Sign of the Cross is a simple way to witness our faith to others. As St. Cryil so wisely say's:

“Let us not then be ashamed to confess the Crucified. Be the Cross our seal made with boldness by our fingers on our brow, and on everything; over the bread we eat, and the cups we drink; in our comings in, and goings out; before our sleep, when we lie down and when we rise up; when we are in the way, and when we are still.”

I am sure there must be more reasons. Please tell me.

Yes, there are. Remember.... you asked!


1. It's a prayer.

2. We open ourselves to grace.

3. We sanctify the day.

4. We commit our whole self to Christ.

5. We recall the Incarnation.

6. We remember the Passion of Our Lord.

7. We affirm the Trinity.

8. We focus our prayer on God.

9. We affirm the procession of Son and Spirit.

10. We confess our faith.

11. We invoke the power of God’s name.

12. We crucify ourselves with Christ.

13. We ask for support in our suffering.

14. We reaffirm our baptism.

15. We reverse the curse.

16. We remake ourselves in Christ’s image.

17. We mark ourselves for Christ.

18. We soldier on for Christ.

19. We ward off the devil.

20. We seal ourselves in the Spirit.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I am pleased you are warming up to Saintly Intercession with God on our behalf.

First off 7-b, it's 'hand', singular. Secondly, the Sign of the Cross is not simply an action but a prayer in itself. Not only that, just like Holy Water, Rosaries, and Medals, ect. it is a Sacramental.

Okay

Undefined? Really? I thought Catholics on this thread have defined it clearly. In case you've missed it, in the Sign of the Cross, we profess the deepest mysteries of the Christian Faith: the Trinity....Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--and the saving work of Christ on the Cross on Good Friday. The combination of the words and the action are a creed—a statement of belief. We mark ourselves as Christians through the Sign of the Cross.

Surley you are not suggesting that one's devotion to worship God is a bad thing?

Nope.... it has nothing to do with "impressing" other people. Do you not pray (witness your faith) in public, say before a meal at restaurants? For Catholics, the Sign of the Cross is a simple way to witness our faith to others. As St. Cryil so wisely say's:

Yes, there are. Remember.... you asked!

1. It's a prayer.
2. We open ourselves to grace.
3. We sanctify the day.
4. We commit our whole self to Christ.
5. We recall the Incarnation.
6. We remember the Passion of Our Lord.
7. We affirm the Trinity.
8. We focus our prayer on God.
9. We affirm the procession of Son and Spirit.
10. We confess our faith.
11. We invoke the power of God’s name.
12. We crucify ourselves with Christ.
13. We ask for support in our suffering.
14. We reaffirm our baptism.
15. We reverse the curse.
16. We remake ourselves in Christ’s image.
17. We mark ourselves for Christ.
18. We soldier on for Christ.
19. We ward off the devil.
20. We seal ourselves in the Spirit.

You're welcome.

You may be pleased to learn that making the sign of the cross with one's hand is neither forbidden nor unknown among Protestants. Last night I attended a 500th anniversary service of Luther's posting of the 95 theses at a local Lutheran Church. At several points during the service the pastor and/or the congregation made the sign of the cross. In fact, the name of the church is Holy Cross Lutheran Church.

 

[Fidelibus]

You may be pleased to learn that making the sign of the cross with one's hand is neither forbidden nor unknown among Protestants.

I never said that 'all' Protestant sects frowned upon making the sign of the cross 7-b, just most. And yes.....I am pleased. What puzzles me though is why the other Protestant sects refuse to use one of the many tools available in our tool box against Satan and his minions.

Last night I attended a 500th anniversary service of Luther's posting of the 95 theses at a local Lutheran Church.

Last night, (Nov.1) I attended Mass to celebrate the feast of "All Saints' Day." The day that is dedicated to the saints of the Church, that is, all those who have attained heaven. Did you know All Saints' Day is also commemorated by members of the Eastern Orthodox Church as well as some protestant churches, such as Lutheran and Anglican churches?

At several points during the service the pastor and/or the congregation made the sign of the cross.

Including yourself? If not....why not?

In fact, the name of the church is Holy Cross Lutheran Church.

Nice!

 

[ViaCrucis]

Last night, (Nov.1) I attended Mass to celebrate the feast of "All Saints' Day." The day that is dedicated to the saints of the Church, that is, all those who have attained heaven. Did you know All Saints' Day is also commemorated by members of the Eastern Orthodox Church as well as some protestant churches, such as Lutheran and Anglican churches?

Technically the Orthodox celebrate All Saints on the first Sunday after Pentecost, the celebration of All Saints on November 1st is the Western tradition dating back to the high middle ages--so yes Lutherans and Anglicans celebrate the Feast of All Saints on November 1st too. But we Lutherans also have Reformation Day on October 31st, which coincides with the Eve of All Saints; generally the celebration of Reformation Day tends to fall on the Sunday on/before October 31st, and is honored as Reformation Sunday.

-CryptoLutheran