Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

[Der Alte]

At last you realized i had posted the reference to you, yet again.
Guessing or not, as a native Greek speaker & scholar, Origen indicates there can be/is both an "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life" in the same context. Whether or not these statements are merely possibilities or facts in Origen's mind is unclear from this translation, as is the meaning of the word "it":
13:19 "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life".
Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32
By Origen
Commentary on the Gospel According to John

You're kidding right? Is this some kind of joke? The word "perhaps" does NOT indicate anything but speculation, native Greek speaker or not. Now let's jump to your objection to paragraph 60 which I quoted from the same source.

As i posted to you before:
Christ Himself speaks of aionios life being obtained in the eon to come (Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30), yet Scripture speaks of multiple eons to come (Eph.1:21; 2:7; Rev.11:15; etc). At their resurrection believers recieve olam life (Dan.12:2), yet the context speaks of them shining brightly beyond olam (Dan.12:3), thereby limiting the olam life of verse 2. So arguably there is not only an interpretation of "life after aionios life" found in Origen but, more significantly, in the Scriptures.

Without the original Greek/Latin words that opinion is nothing more than a guess.

Can you not see the total hypocrisy of this argument? You quoted para. 19 from Origen's commentary on John as an irrefutable source. But when I quote para. 60 from the same source you reject it saying "Without the original Greek/Latin words that opinion is nothing more than a guess."

13:19 "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life"​

I think we can safely assume that Origen used the same Greek or Latin word for eternal in both 13:19 and 13:60. So your argument applies to your quote from 19 "Without the original Greek/Latin words that opinion is nothing more than a guess." Therefore Origen proves absolutely nothing! Or my quote from Origen soundly trumps your quote because, in 60 Origen does not use any speculative language. You can't have it both ways.

(6o) And he has explained the statement, But “he shall not thirst forever:” as follows with these very words: for the life which comes from the well is eternal and never perishes, as indeed, does the first life which comes from the well,; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.​

Here Origen defines "eternal life" as "never perishes,""remains,"""not taken away,""not consumed,""does not perish.""

 

[Der Alte]

According to you v.4 proves there is no more death anywhere in the universe, including the lake of fire. Then you should also believe v.4 proves there is no more pain anywhere in the universe, including the lake of fire.
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4)
Verse 4 speaks of no more death & pain? Do you suppose that refers to the whole universe, including the lake of fire? Or just the New Jerusalem.
Death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26) when all the dead in the lake of fire are made alive in Christ (v.22) and God becomes all in all (v28).
"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."
AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)
1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Rev.21:5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.”
Is "all" already made completely new (21:5), immortal & incorruptible when nations still need healing from the leaves of trees (22:2; Ezek.47:12)? Has death and reigning been abolished (1 Cor.15:24-26) while reigning continues (22:3-5 & 21:23,24)? No.
"AS in Adam ALL die
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
BUT each in his own order:
1. Christ the Firstfruit;
2. Then they that are Christ's, at His coming;
3. Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver
up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN He shall
have abolished ALL rule and ALL authority and power.
For He must reign. TILL He hath put all His enemies
under His feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED
IS DEATH. (1 Cor. 15:22-26, R.V.)."
"...But each in his own order. Not a "but" of exception,
rather a "but" of order. ALL are to be made alive but at
different times. "Each in his own order." Three orders
are enumerated and located in relation to other events:
1. Christ the Firstfruit — Three days alter His death.
2. Then those who are Christ's — At His coming.
3. Then the end [order] — WHEN He shall deliver up the
kingdom."
"It is the third or "end" order that many overlook. A
thoughtful reading of this passage will enable most be-
lievers to see clearly that the words "then cometh the
end" refer to this end order to be made alive. The sub-
ject the apostle is elucidating is: The order in which
all who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ (vs. 22-
24). Christ the firstfruit (order one) and those who
are Christ's at His coming (order two) comprise only
a small part of the all who die in Adam. A third order
is necessary to make all alive. To refer the "end" to
anything else is to ignore the context and to introduce
something foreign to the subject. It cannot possibly
refer to an end of the kingdom, for though the kingdom
will be "delivered up" to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24), it
will never end (Luke 1:33)."
"Four statements in this passage indicate that the
words "then cometh the end" refer to the making alive
of an end order.
1. "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made
alive. But each in his own order" (vs. 22. 23).
2. "The last enemy that shall be abolished is death" (vs. 26).
It is the making alive of ALL that will abolish death. As long
as any remain dead, death has not been abolished.
3. "When all things have been subjected unto the Son" (vs.
27, 28). The dead must ALL be made alive if all are to be subjected unto the Son. The only exception in this subjection is God the Father.
4. "That God may be All in all" (vs. 28). This requires that
all be made alive. As long as any remain dead God cannot be ALL in ALL, for He is not the God of the dead (Luke 20:37, 38)."
Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

Please explain to me now all these random verses and associated arguments address the passage I posted from Rev?

Revelation 21:4-8
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

This is one continuous narrative, vs. 4 "no more death," vs. 5, "I make all things new," yet in vs. 8 there are still groups of people being thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death.

 

[ClementofA]

While this is true in the cited verses it does not change the verse which does in fact say "eternal punishment." Matthew 25:46 and other verses which mention a similar fate. e.g. Mark 3:29, Revelation 14:11 Revelation 20:10

There's no "eternal punishment" in the Scriptures. That's a misleading deceptive rendering promoted by those who support the idea that Love Omnipotent will keep beings alive forever to torment them without end.

Here where we are now the only dead seen are inanimate dead. But there where they go afterward the dead can be animate, they will still be experiencing what is appointed for them.

It is ultimately as Christ told his followers shown in Matthew 25:46.
"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The everlasting punishment is with suffering. The redeemed don't have to face that, with being in Christ, who bore the justice for them on him.

Some alternate translations have:

Young‘s Literal Translation: ―punishment age-during.
Rotherham Translation: ―age-abiding correction.
Weymouth Translation: ―punishment of the ages.
Concordant Literal Translation: ―chastening eonian."

eonian, "αἰώνιος...lasting for an age...partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting... (also used of past time, or past and future as well) Derivation: from G165;" G166 αἰώνιος - Strong's Greek Lexicon

"2851. kolasis...Short Definition: chastisement, punishment..."

"In the late 2nd century/early 3rd century, Clement of Alexandria clearly distinguished between kólasis and timoria: “For there are partial corrections [padeiai] which are called
chastisements [kólasis], which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord’s people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father,
so are we by Providence. But God does not punish [timoria], for punishment [timoria] is retaliation for evil. He chastises, however, for good to those who are chastised collectively
and individually” (Strom. 7.16)."

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2013/09/15/from-here-to-eternity-how-long-is-forever/

The "eternal" (eonian) fire that burned Sodom went out long ago:

Jude 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."

The fire wasn't eternal & neither is the "eternal fire" or punishment in Mt.25:41,46.

As regards the fate of the Jewish people, earlier in the same gospel of Saint Matthew Jesus' word does correct them re the false teachings of endless torments and annihilation, as follows:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

That includes the murderous Pharisees, Judas Iscariot & all other Jews. And since God is no respecter of person, the Gentiles will also be saved, as the Scriptures reveal.

There is the description starting in Revelation 20:10.
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)

But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:

24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)

So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.

Chapter Five

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

And then there are the further things shown in Revelation 20:12-15.
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

All will suffer with the one called the beast in Revelation, and the false prophet, this will be for day and night forever and ever. Such duration corresponds with the promise of everlasting life to the redeemed in the bliss with Yahweh and with Christ prepared for them.

Compare:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

-----------------------------


1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

You're kidding right? Is this some kind of joke? The word "perhaps" does NOT indicate anything but speculation, native Greek speaker or not. Now let's jump to your objection to paragraph 60 which I quoted from the same source.


Can you not see the total hypocrisy of this argument? You quoted para. 19 from Origen's commentary on John as an irrefutable source. But when I quote para. 60 from the same source you reject it saying "Without the original Greek/Latin words that opinion is nothing more than a guess."

13:19 "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life"​

I think we can safely assume that Origen used the same Greek or Latin word for eternal in both 13:19 and 13:60. So your argument applies to your quote from 19 "Without the original Greek/Latin words that opinion is nothing more than a guess." Therefore Origen proves absolutely nothing! Or my quote from Origen soundly trumps your quote because, in 60 Origen does not use any speculative language. You can't have it both ways.

(6o) And he has explained the statement, But “he shall not thirst forever:” as follows with these very words: for the life which comes from the well is eternal and never perishes, as indeed, does the first life which comes from the well,; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.​

Here Origen defines "eternal life" as "never perishes,""remains,"""not taken away,""not consumed,""does not perish.""

I reject your obfuscation by putting words in my mouth which i didn't say.

As to your opinion from the English translation, why would Origen contradict what he had just said about "after eternal (aionios) life"?

Ramelli confirms that authors translation of "after eternal life", & that the word used is aionios.

Additionally i have given you the Greek text of the passage with "after eternal life" in it already, at post #168, here in this topic:

LAKE OF FIRE (eternal pain)

But you have - never - provided a single Greek text of any church father you have ever quoted, including that of Origen in section "60" that you posted above in English only.

Here again Origen refers to what is after eternal life, as well as after "the ages", beyond "ages of the ages" [often mistranslated forever & ever] and all ages:

Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika

Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika: A New Translation of the Unreformed Text from ... By Ilaria L.E. Ramelli (pages 10- 11)

Further re Origen & aionios:

"That threats of aionios punishment are helpful for those immature who abstain from evil out of fear and not for love is repeated, e.g. in CC 6,26: "it is not helpful to go up to what will come beyond that punishment, for the sake of those who restrain themselves only with much difficulty, out of fear of the aionios punishment"; Hom. in Jer. 20 (19), 4: for a married woman it is better to believe that a faithless woman will undergo aionios punishment and keep faithful, rather than knowing the truth and becoming disloyal;" (p.178-9).

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Celsus, Book VI (Origen)

Links to the Works of Origen in English, Greek, and Latin

 

[he-man]

According to you v.4 proves there is no more death anywhere in the universe, including the lake of fire. Then you should also believe v.4 proves there is no more pain anywhere in the universe, including the lake of fire. "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4) Verse 4 speaks of no more death & pain? Do you suppose that refers to the whole universe, including the lake of fire? Or just the New Jerusalem. Death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26) when all the dead in the lake of fire are made alive in Christ (v.22) and God becomes all in all (v28).
1. Christ the Firstfruit — Three days alter His death. 2. Then those who are Christ's — At His coming. 3. Then the end [order] — WHEN He shall deliver up the kingdom."
The order in which all who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ (vs. 22-24). Christ the firstfruit (order one) and those who are Christ's at His coming (order two) comprise only a small part of the all who die in Adam.
1. "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order" (vs. 22. 23). 2. "The last enemy that shall be abolished is death" (vs. 26). 3. "When all things have been subjected unto the Son" (vs. 27, 28). 4. "That God may be All in all" (vs. 28).

"So, also, in CHRIST shall all be made alive. which means you must be a follower in Christ in order to have your name in the book of Life, or be one of the First Fruits, else you will be annihilated as in 2 Thessalonian 1:9 "who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction..." [DARBY]

 

[Der Alte]

I reject your obfuscation by putting words in my mouth which i didn't say.

Please show me where I put any words in your mouth? I quoted your words exactly. Did you forget what you said?

As to your opinion from the English translation, why would Origen contradict what he had just said about "after eternal (aionios) life"?

It is not my opinion I quoted YOUR source exactly. I like how unis hold up Origen as a poster boy for ECF universalism but when something Origen says contradicts universalism, as does Comm John 13:60, they have all kinds of arguments why Origen is wrong. This is trying to eat your cake and have it too. There is no contradiction! In 13:19 there was one speculative comment "after [eternal life,] perhaps it will also leap into the Father." In 13:60 Origen makes five definitive, NOT speculative, statements about eternal life. "eternal life," "[1] never perishes,""[2]remains.""[3]is not taken away,""[4] is not consumed,"[5] does [not] perish."

Ramelli confi rms that authors translation of "after eternal life", & that the word used is aionios.

\
So why don't you consult pope Ramelli and see what she confirms about the word translated "perhaps"comm John 13:19, and "eternal" in Comm John 13:60 since you are presenting her work as the end all be all authority here.
.....It appears to me that "pope" Ramelli is pushing her agenda and ignoring everything in Origen which contradicts her.

Additionally i have given you the Greek text of the passage with "after eternal life" in it already, at post #168, here in this topic:
LAKE OF FIRE (eternal pain)

Where can I review the complete text of Origen Comm John to verify that the alleged quotes are correct? What I have found shows that Ramelli cannot be trusted.

But you have - never - provided a single Greek text of any church father you have ever quoted, including that of Origen in section "60" that you posted above in English only.

Go to the same source from which you quoted all the Greek in the other thread. The Greek for comm John 13:60 will be right there.

Here again Origen refers to what is after eternal life, as well as after "the ages", beyond "ages of the ages" [often mistranslated forever & ever] and all ages:

Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika
Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika: A New Translation of the Unreformed Text from ... By Ilaria L.E. Ramelli (pages 10- 11)
Further re Origen & aionios:
"That threats of aionios punishment are helpful for those immature who abstain from evil out of fear and not for love is repeated, e.g. in CC 6,26: "it is not helpful to go up to what will come beyond that punishment, for the sake of those who restrain themselves only with much difficulty, out of fear of the aionios punishment"; Hom. in Jer. 20 (19), 4: for a married woman it is better to believe that a faithless woman will undergo aionios punishment and keep faithful, rather than knowing the truth and becoming disloyal;" (p.178-9).
Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)
CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Celsus, Book VI (Origen)
Links to the Works of Origen in English, Greek, and Latin

Not relevant! I don't see any Greek here. What exactly do you think this proves?

 

[ClementofA]

It is not my opinion I quoted YOUR source exactly.

You did in fact state an opinion about what Origen was saying.

I like how unis hold up Origen as a poster boy for ECF universalism but when something Origen says contradicts universalism, as does Comm John 13:60, they have all kinds of arguments why Origen is wrong. This is trying to eat your cake and have it too.

What contradiction? There's no contradiction to universalism there.

Origen makes it clear that "eternal fire" (Mt.25:46) is remedial, corrective & temporary:

"Chapter 10. On the Resurrection, and the Judgment, the Fire of Hell, and Punishments."

"1. But since the discourse has reminded us of the subjects of a future judgment and of retribution, and of the punishments of sinners, according to the threatenings of holy Scripture and the contents of the Church's teaching— viz., that when the time of judgment comes, everlasting fire, and outer darkness, and a prison, and a furnace, and other punishments of like nature, have been prepared for sinners— let us see what our opinions on these points ought to be."

"...nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire."

"...And when this dissolution and rending asunder of soul shall have been tested by the application of fire, a solidification undoubtedly into a firmer structure will take place, and a restoration be effected."

[De Principis Book 2]

CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book II (Origen)

There is no contradiction! In 13:19 there was one speculative comment "after [eternal life,] perhaps it will also leap into the Father." In 13:60 Origen makes five definitive, NOT speculative, statements about eternal life. "eternal life," "[1] never perishes,""[2]remains.""[3]is not taken away,""[4] is not consumed,"[5] does [not] perish."

If you say [a] "it looks like it will rain today, maybe it will rain" & then say "it won't rain today", then [c] you are contradicting yourself. Both statements cannot be true.

As to aionios life, if it refers to life during the aions and, as Origen says, the aions end, then when all will leap into the Father, who is "beyond eternal life", then it "remains" & is "not taken away" during the aions. It isn't "consumed" but, as Origen said "leaps" into the Father who is "beyond eternal life". Notice BTW that it doesn't say "maybe" the Father is "beyond eternal life", but that He - is - "beyond eternal life".

"And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life".

The word "perhaps" is related to the "it will also leap", whatever "it" refers to. Not to the statement before which definitively speaks of there being an "after eternal life", nor to the phrase after it, "beyond eternal life".

What is the Greek word for "never" in "never persishes"? In some bible translations it involves a deceptive rendering of the word aion which means literally eon, not "never". So your opinion about what Origen said in section 60 can be easily explained away. And be in harmony with what he said earlier in statements about after/beyond "eternal life".

.....It appears to me that "pope" Ramelli is pushing her agenda and ignoring everything in Origen which contradicts her.

What gives you that idea & why speak of her as pope? She has read Origen in the original Greek & Latin. You haven't. She is a partistic scholar, especially of Origen. You are not. Have you even read her tome on universalism in the early church. Or any of her other book(s) & articles?

Where can I review the complete text of Origen Comm John to verify that the alleged quotes are correct?

As you've been previously informed, this is where i got the Greek text of Origen that i posted:

TLG - Home

Go to the same source from which you quoted all the Greek in the other thread. The Greek for comm John 13:60 will be right there.

I may do that. Although when i checked last year most texts of Origen were unavailable in the ancient koine Greek language.

Not relevant! I don't see any Greek here. What exactly do you think this proves?

It opposes your opinions based on English translations alone, such as in section 60 above & your claims re Origen's "definition" of aion & aionios as "eternal". And it opposes your claims that the definition of aion/ios & olam in the Scriptures is "eternal" & always means "eternal" except when used in hyperbole.

Clearly your arguments don't have even half a leg to stand on.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

 

[he-man]

You did in fact state an opinion about what Origen was saying. What contradiction? There's no contradiction to universalism there. Origen makes it clear that "eternal fire" (Mt.25:46) is remedial, corrective & temporary: "never" in "never persishes"?.. aion which means literally eon, not "never".
where i got the Greek text of Origen that i posted: TLG - Home

TLG Home also lists Liddell-Scott-Jones (LSJ) as the source for Matthew 25:46. It is defined by the attached file, so you are incorrect in your assumptions;

 

[he-man]

Origen's commentary on John has 32 "books". Your site only lists 6 of them. Origen spoke of "after aionios life" in book 13, section 19, which your site doesn't have and which i already gave you via an online link to so you could read it for yourself. I've also previously given it to you from other multiple online sources.

Evangical hokey-pokey. Your own reference to TLG refutes your ill conspired own theory and is close to preaching an anti-Christ doctrine. Here is the digital (LSJ) Liddell-Scott-Jones commentary in the attached file:

 

[Der Alte]

You did in fact state an opinion about what Origen was saying.

No I did not! I only emphasized what Origen said here it is again.

(6o) And he has explained the statement, But “he shall not thirst forever:” as follows with these very words: for the life which comes from the well is eternal and never perishes, as indeed, does the first life which comes from the well,; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.​

In this paragraph Origen describes or defines "eternal life" as "eternal,""never perishes,""remains.""is not taken away,"""is not consumed,""[does not] perish."
Commentary on the Gospel According to John

What contradiction? There's no contradiction to universalism there.

Origen comm John 13:60 contradicts the universalist argument that aionios does not mean eternal. And OBTW this is not the only place where Origen describes/defines aionios.

Origen makes it clear that "eternal fire" (Mt.25:46) is remedial, corrective & temporary:
"Chapter 10. On the Resurrection, and the Judgment, the Fire of Hell, and Punishments."
"1. But since the discourse has reminded us of the subjects of a future judgment and of retribution, and of the punishments of sinners, according to the threatenings of holy Scripture and the contents of the Church's teaching— viz., that when the time of judgment comes, everlasting fire, and outer darkness, and a prison, and a furnace, and other punishments of like nature, have been prepared for sinners— let us see what our opinions on these points ought to be."
"...nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire."
"...And when this dissolution and rending asunder of soul shall have been tested by the application of fire, a solidification undoubtedly into a firmer structure will take place, and a restoration be effected."
[De Principis Book 2]

Then De Principiis contradicts commentary on John.

Your quote

As to aionios life, if it refers to life during the aions and, as Origen says, the aions end, then when all will leap into the Father, who is "beyond eternal life", then it "remains" & is "not taken away" during the aions. It isn't "consumed" but, as Origen said "leaps" into the Father who is "beyond eternal life". Notice BTW that it doesn't say "maybe" the Father is "beyond eternal life", but that He - is - "beyond eternal life".

End

Everything in red is misrepresenting Origen trying to support your agenda. You have twisted the words of Origen.

"And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life".
The word "perhaps" is related to the "it will also leap", whatever "it" refers to. Not to the statement before which definitively speaks of there being an "after eternal life", nor to the phrase after it, "beyond eternal life".

Since you do not know what "it" refers to how can you cite this paragraph as evidence of anything? Try reading the paragraph in-context at your link maybe you will understand it then. I suggest you read para.18

What is the Greek word for "never" in "never persishes"? In some bible translations it involves a deceptive rendering of the word aion which means literally eon, not "never". So your opinion about what Origen said in section 60 can be easily explained away. And be in harmony with what he said earlier in statements about after/beyond "eternal life".

Irrelevant! We are not talking about what word is translated "never" in "some Bible translations" but "never perishes" in a source which you have posted/linked to as authoritative. Either your source is authoritative or it is not, you don't get to pick and choose. Origen did NOT say there was a beyond eternal life.

What gives you that idea & why speak of her as pope? She has read Origen in the original Greek & Latin. You haven't. She is a partistic scholar, especially of Origen. You are not. Have you even read her tome on universalism in the early church. Or any of her other book(s) & articles?

What is a "partistic scholar?" Why should I read anything written by "pope" Ramelli? I have already proved that she selectively quoted Origen to support her agenda. As long as people quote and link to Ramelli as if she is the be all end all authority on Greek and the NT I will refer to her as "pope."

As you've been previously informed, this is where i got the Greek text of Origen that i posted:

TLG - Home

I couldn't find it at TLG.

I may do that. Although when i checked last year most texts of Origen were unavailable in the ancient koine Greek language.

If most texts of Origen were unavailable how were you able to copy from Origen's commentary on John?

It opposes your opinions based on English translations alone, such as in section 60 above & your claims re Origen's "definition" of aion & aionios as "eternal". And it opposes your claims that the definition of aion/ios & olam in the Scriptures is "eternal" & always means "eternal" except when used in hyperbole.
Clearly your arguments don't have even half a leg to stand on.

You keep saying my "opinion" but you have not shown me how I have misrepresented Origen at the link you provided? Did Origen use one word for "eternal life" in 13:19 and a different word for "eternal life" in 13:60. Since you claim to have access to Origen's commentary on John in the Greek you need to prove your assertion.

 

[ClementofA]

Then De Principiis contradicts commentary on John.

How is that? One topic is aionios life, the other aionios punishment. Apples & oranges.

Since you do not know what "it" refers to how can you cite this paragraph as evidence of anything? Try reading the paragraph in-context at your link maybe you will understand it then. I suggest you read para.18

Whatever "it" refers to doesn't change the fact of Origen speaking of "after eternal life" and "beyond eternal life", which was supported also by:

Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika

Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika: A New Translation of the Unreformed Text from ... By Ilaria L.E. Ramelli (pages 10- 11)

Where again Origen refers to what is after eternal life, as well as after "the ages", beyond "ages of the ages" [often mistranslated forever & ever] and all ages.

Further re Origen & aionios:

"That threats of aionios punishment are helpful for those immature who abstain from evil out of fear and not for love is repeated, e.g. in CC 6,26: "it is not helpful to go up to what will come beyond that punishment, for the sake of those who restrain themselves only with much difficulty, out of fear of the aionios punishment"; Hom. in Jer. 20 (19), 4: for a married woman it is better to believe that a faithless woman will undergo aionios punishment and keep faithful, rather than knowing the truth and becoming disloyal;" (p.178-9).

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Celsus, Book VI (Origen)
CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Celsus, Book VI (Origen)

Furthermore re Origen & aionios, Origen makes it clear that "eternal fire" (Mt.25:46) is remedial, corrective & temporary:

"Chapter 10. On the Resurrection, and the Judgment, the Fire of Hell, and Punishments."

"1. But since the discourse has reminded us of the subjects of a future judgment and of retribution, and of the punishments of sinners, according to the threatenings of holy Scripture and the contents of the Church's teaching— viz., that when the time of judgment comes, everlasting fire, and outer darkness, and a prison, and a furnace, and other punishments of like nature, have been prepared for sinners— let us see what our opinions on these points ought to be."

"...nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire."

"...And when this dissolution and rending asunder of soul shall have been tested by the application of fire, a solidification undoubtedly into a firmer structure will take place, and a restoration be effected."

[De Principis Book 2]

CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book II (Origen)

Links to the Works of Origen in English, Greek, and Latin
Links to the Works of Origen in English, Greek, and Latin

And yet more re Origen & aion/ios:

"Origen, the greatest exegete of the early Church, was well aware of the polysemy of aión and its adjectival forms. In Hom. in Ex. 6.13 he writes: “Whenever Scripture says, ‘from aeon to aeon,’ the reference is to an interval of time, and it is clear that it will have an end. And if Scripture says, ‘in another aeon,’ what is indicated is clearly a longer time, and yet an end is still fixed. And when the ‘aeons of the aeons’ are mentioned, a certain limit is again posited, perhaps unknown to us, but surely established by God” (quoted in Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p. 161). And Comm. in Rom. 6.5: “In Scriptures, aión is sometimes found in the sense of something that knows no end; at times it designates something that has no end in the present world, but will have in the future one; sometimes it means a certain stretch of time; or again the duration of the life of a single person is called aión” (quoted in Ramelli, p. 163).

Sometimes Eternity Ain’t Forever: Aiónios and the Universalist Hope

Origen did NOT say there was a beyond eternal life.

He did. You saw the English translation saying so. And the Greek as well. Sorry to disappoint you, but the vast majority of people are not going to be kept alive by Love Omnipotent only so they can be tortured forever.

I couldn't find it at TLG.

Did you pay for the service?

If most texts of Origen were unavailable how were you able to copy from Origen's commentary on John?

John's commentary of the portion i quoted was available. AFAIK the site has many Greek works, but no Latin. Much of what Origen wrote is in Latin.

 

[ClementofA]

Evangical hokey-pokey. Your own reference to TLG refutes your ill conspired own theory and is close to preaching an anti-Christ doctrine. Here is the digital (LSJ) Liddell-Scott-Jones commentary in the attached file:
View attachment 211746

Thanks for the LSJ entry. What's an "anti-Christ doctrine"?

TLG Home also lists Liddell-Scott-Jones (LSJ) as the source for Matthew 25:46. It is defined by the attached file, so you are incorrect in your assumptions;View attachment 211743

How is it i am "incorrect in your assumptions"?

Here are examples of how aionios is used of finite duration in the LXX:

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient(aionios) times. (Psa.77:5)

Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone, which your fathers have set up. (Prov.22:28)

Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone. Don’t encroach on the fields of the fatherless: (Prov.23:10)

Those from among you will rebuild the ancient(aionios) ruins; You will raise up the age-old(aionios) foundations;... (Isa 58:12a)

Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because the enemy has said against you, Aha! and, The ancient(aionios) high places are ours in possession; (Ezek.36:2)

Because of thy having an enmity age-during(aionios)... (Ezek.35:5a)

They will rebuild the perpetual(aionios) ruins and restore the places that were desolate; (Isa.61:4a)

I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever(aionios): yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. (Jonah 2:6)

He beat back His foes; He gave them lasting(aionios) shame. (Psa.78:66)

Will you keep the old(aionios) way, which wicked men have trodden (Job 22:15)

Will it make an agreement with you for you to take it as your slave for life(aionios)? (Job 41:4)

’Will you not fear me?" says The Lord "will you not be cautious in front of my face? The One who appointed the sand to be the boundary to the sea, by perpetual(aionios) decree, that it will not cross over though it will be agitated it is not able and though the waves resound within her yet she will not overstep it. (Jer.5:22)

Their land will be an object of horror and of lasting(aionios) scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake their heads. (Jer.18:16)

Behold I will send, and take all the kindreds of the north, saith the Lord, and Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon my servant: and I will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all the nations that are round about it: and I will destroy them, and make them an astonishment and a hissing, and perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:9)

And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:12)

In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual(aionios) sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (Jer.51:39)

When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old(aionios), with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek.26:20)

I will make you a perpetual(aionios) desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited; and you shall know that I am Yahweh. (Ezek.35:9)

From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian(aionios) life and these to reproach for eonian(aionios) repulsion. (Daniel 12:2)

Thus says Yahweh, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old(aionios) paths, ‘Where is the good way?’ and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (Jer.6:16)

For my people have forgotten me, they have burned incense to false gods; and they have been made to stumble in their ways, in the ancient(aionios) paths, to walk in byways, in a way not built up; (Jer.18:15)

Then he remembered the days of old(aionios), Moses and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock?where is he who put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (Isa.63:11)

*******************************************


"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

 

[he-man]

Thanks for the LSJ entry. What's an "anti-Christ doctrine"? How is it i am "incorrect in your assumptions"?
Here are examples of how aionios is used of finite duration in the LXX: I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient(aionios) times. (Psa.77:5) .. ancient(aionios) ruins; You will raise up the age-old(aionios) foundations;... (Isa 58:12a) ...and sleep a perpetual(aionios) sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (Jer.51:39)
From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian(aionios) life and these to reproach for eonian(aionios) repulsion. (Daniel 12:2)

H5769 owlan from H5956 1 Samuel 2:30 "all the time until their destruction.." also by hyperbole. Don't you know the difference between Niphil, Hiphiil, or Hithpael? Why do you ignore what LSJ says? You have exposed your ignorance by asking, "what is an anti-Christ doctrine?", that is why YOUR assumptions are false. see 1 John & 2 John for Αντιχριστος.

 

[Der Alte]

How is that? One topic is aionios life, the other aionios punishment. Apples & oranges.

However both use the Greek word aionios. Does Origen mean one thing when he says "aionion zoe" and another when he says "aionion kolasis?"

Whatever "it" refers to doesn't change the fact of Origen speaking of "after eternal life" and "beyond eternal life", which was supported also by:

Here is your quote from Origen.

21. ORIGENES Theol. Commentarii in evangelium Joannis (lib. 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 10, 13, 19-20, 28-32) {2042.005} Book 13 chapter 3 section 18 line 5
ἡ γενομένη ἐν τῷ πιόντι ἐκ τοῦ ὕδατος, οὗ δίδωσιν ὁ Ἰησοῦς, πηγὴ ἅλλεται εἰς τὴν αἰώνιον ζωήν. (19) Τάχα δὲ καὶ πηδήσει μετὰ τὴν αἰώνιον ζωὴν εἰς τὸν ὑπὲρ τὴν αἰώνιον ζωὴν​

Note the word Τάχα/taxa immediately after (19). Here is the definition from BAG online.

Τάχα adv. ( Hom. +) perhaps, possibly, probably ( Aeschyl. , Hdt. et al .; pap. , Wsd., quite predom. w. an and the opt. Rarely, as in both NT passages, w. the indic. and without an : Dio Chrys. 15[32], 33; Ps.-Demetr. , El. c. 180; BGU 1040, 41 [II AD ] taxa dunasai; POxy. 40, 7; Wsd 13:6 auti taxa planontai; Philo , Aet. M. 54; Jos. , Ant. 6, 33; 18, 277.—MArnim, De Philonis Byz. dicendi genere, Diss. Greifswald ’12, 86; JScham, Der Optativgebrauch bei Klemens v. Alex, ’13, 83; Bl-D. §385, 1) Ro 5 7; Phlm 15 . M-M. B. 965.*
A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker​

Regardless how attractive it may be nobody can make "perhaps, possibly, probably" a definitive statement about anything after eternal life."
Paragraph 60 in the same source is a definitive statement. Origen describes/defines "eternal life" as "never perishes,""remains,""is not taken away,""is not consumed" and "[does not] perish"
Copy/pastes from tents-r-us omitted.

Primary Sources
A primary source provides direct or firsthand evidence about an event, object, person, or work of art. Primary sources include historical and legal documents, eyewitness accounts, results of experiments, statistical data, pieces of creative writing, audio and video recordings, speeches, and art objects. Interviews, surveys, fieldwork, and Internet communications via email, blogs, listservs, and newsgroups are also primary sources. In the natural and social sciences, primary sources are often empirical studies—research where an experiment was performed or a direct observation was made. The results of empirical studies are typically found in scholarly articles or papers delivered at conferences.
Secondary Sources
Secondary sources describe, discuss, interpret, comment upon, analyze, evaluate, summarize, and process primary sources. Secondary source materials can be articles in newspapers or popular magazines, book or movie reviews, or articles found in scholarly journals that discuss or evaluate someone else's original research.
Primary and Secondary Sources​

Did you pay for the service?

No and don't intend to. "Evidence" which is not readily available to the average person is not evidence.

John's commentary of the portion i quoted was available. AFAIK the site has many Greek works, but no Latin. Much of what Origen wrote is in Latin.

I'll try again.

 

[ClementofA]

H5769 owlan from H5956 1 Samuel 2:30 "all the time until their destruction.." also by hyperbole. Don't you know the difference between Niphil, Hiphiil, or Hithpael? Why do you ignore what LSJ says? You have exposed your ignorance by asking, "what is an anti-Christ doctrine?", that is why YOUR assumptions are false. see 1 John & 2 John for Αντιχριστος.

Where does 1 John & 2 John support your claim that i am "close to preaching an anti-Christ doctrine"?

What makes you think that i "ignore what LSJ says"? Is there something in LSJ that you think supports your opinion or refutes mine?


Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists
Statement of Faith -- Please Read

7 Myths About Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

However both use the Greek word aionios. Does Origen mean one thing when he says "aionion zoe" and another when he says "aionion kolasis?"

Why couldn't aionios have different meanings in various contexts, when applied to things that are not the same? Or even in the same context when applied to different things? Is the aion of an ant of the same duration as the aion of a tree? Is a tall man of the same height as a tall building? Does aionios have the same meaning in both of its occurrences in Hab.3:6? Or in both of its occurrences in Rom.16:25-26? Even your beloved JPS translation does not render olam (aionios, LXX) as eternal when applied to God's goings, but as "of old" in Hab.3:6:

"He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting mountains are dashed in pieces, The ancient[OLAM] hills do bow; His goings are as of old.[OLAM]" (Hab.3:6, JPS)

No and don't intend to. "Evidence" which is not readily available to the average person is not evidence.​

For something that you consider "not evidence", you've gone to great lengths to try to refute it.

That definition would rule out much of what you post, including lexicons, encyclopedias, etc, when they cite references to writings in ancient languages that are unavailable to the average person.

Moreover even if they were available, the average person cannot read those dead languages. So that makes them unavailable to the average person in the sense they have no ability to read or understand them.

Yet the meaning of the word "evidence" does not require it being available to the average person.

Also the site i referenced is available to anyone with internet access and the funds to pay for the service. So it is available to the whole world.

Moreover i expect the info is also available in libraries. Try contacting a librarian for further information.

Alternately, if you have any scholarly connections to people you know, e.g. translators (as you have alleged before), that could be another means of verifying what i've posted, that is Greek texts of Origen.

Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism:
>Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

 

[Der Alte]

Why couldn't aionios have different meanings in various contexts, when applied to things that are not the same?

Whenever someone says e.g. "My trip lasted forever." does that change the meaning of forever?

Or even in the same context when applied to different things?

Is the aion of an ant of the same duration as the aion of a tree?

Do ants and trees even have aions?

]Is a tall man of the same height as a tall building?

Tall is not an adjective with a specific measurement neither is long, short, small, large etc.

Does aionios have the same meaning in both of its occurrences in Hab.3:6? Or in both of its occurrences in Rom.16:25-26? Even your beloved JPS translation does not render olam as eternal when applied to God's goings, but as "of old" in Hab.3:6:

"He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting mountains are dashed in pieces, The ancient[OLAM] hills do bow; His goings are as of old.[OLAM]" (Hab.3:6, JPS)

Hab 3:6​

(6) He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting [עד][LXX omit] mountains were scattered, the perpetual
[עולם][LXX omit] hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.[αἰώνιοι LXX][עולם Heb.]

That definition would rule out much of what you post, including lexicons, encyclopedias, etc, when they cite references to writings in ancient languages that are unavailable to the average person.

Wrong as usual! Do you verify every reference in every lexicon, grammar, dictionary etc. you consult? Neither do I nor anyone else that I know of. Because those are accredited peer reviewed reference works. They would not have the trust and reputations they have if their citations were not accurate. What does the average person verify references/citations posted by anonymous people online. Which often prove to be inaccurate as with the Origen quote.

Moreover even if they were available, the average person cannot read those dead languages. So that makes them unavailable to the average person in the sense they have no ability to read or understand them.

See above.

Yet the meaning of the word "evidence" does not require it being available to the average person.

I'd like to see someone go into a court room and say "Your honor the evidence I have supporting my case is in a database which requires a somewhat expensive subscription to view."

Also the site i referenced is available to anyone with internet access and the funds to pay for the service. So it is available to the whole world.

See above.

Moreover i'm sure it is also available in libraries. Try contacting a librarian for further information.

Nope, TLG is one of a kind database that is why they can and do charge for their service.

Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism:

Would you be convinced if I posted a list of a few hundred well known people who do not believe in universalism? Islam has about 1.6 billion followers in the world does that validate it?

 

[he-man]

Where does 1 John & 2 John support your claim that i am "close to preaching an anti-Christ doctrine"?
What makes you think that i "ignore what LSJ says"? Is there something in LSJ that you think supports your opinion or refutes

ολεθρος ruin destruction death
αιωνιος perpetual, eternal, age lasting
αντιχριστος

 

[ClementofA]

Hab 3:6​

(6) He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting [עד][LXX omit] mountains were scattered, the perpetual
[עולם][LXX omit] hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.[αἰώνιοι LXX][עולם Heb.]

Firstly, according to you " "Evidence" which is not readily available to the average person is not evidence." You haven't shown that your cut and paste qualifies as "evidence" or is readily available to the average person, so why should i pay any attention to it?

Secondly, is there a point you are trying to make with that cut & paste? I am not a mind reader.

Thirdly, how does that cut & paste answer this:

Does aionios have the same meaning in both of its occurrences in Hab.3:6? Or in both of its occurrences in Rom.16:25-26? Even your beloved JPS translation does not render olam as eternal when applied to God's goings, but as "of old" in Hab.3:6:

"He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting mountains are dashed in pieces, The ancient[OLAM] hills do bow; His goings are as of old.[OLAM]" (Hab.3:6, JPS)

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

 

[Der Alte]

Firstly, according to you " "Evidence" which is not readily available to the average person is not evidence." You haven't shown that your cut and paste qualifies as "evidence" or is readily available to the average person, so why should i pay any attention to it?

Quoting scripture is not cut and paste. Cut and paste refers to copying an argument made by someone else as the complete or bulk of your post. Most of your posts fall into that category. Almost exclusively or mostly copy/pastes of canned arguments from tent-r-us.

Secondly, is there a point you are trying to make with that cut & paste? I am not a mind reader.

Did you read my post? I indicated where the Hebrew/Greek word for eternal occurs in the Hebrew text and the LXX

Thirdly, how does that cut & paste answer this:
Does aionios have the same meaning in both of its occurrences in Hab.3:6? Or in both of its occurrences in Rom.16:25-26? Even your beloved JPS translation does not render olam as eternal when applied to God's goings, but as "of old" in Hab.3:6:
"He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting mountains are dashed in pieces, The ancient[OLAM] hills do bow; His goings are as of old.[OLAM]" (Hab.3:6, JPS)

JPS Hab 3:6
(6) He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting [עד][LXX omit] mountains were scattered, the perpetual
[עולם][LXX omit] hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.[αἰώνιοι LXX][עולם Heb.]

. . . Endlessly repetitive link to Beauchemin omitted . . .