Did Paul consider himself a "sinner", are we supposed to think of ourselves as sinners...?

[1stcenturylady]

Some don't seem to get it.
All ones sins are forgiven. Period. Thereafter a born again man can not commit sin. Period.

Pertaining to a man born of God....
Wilful sin, oops sin, non intended sin, etc. ~ all man-made nonsense.

A man born of God does not commit sin, he can't.

God Bless,
SBC

But what you seem to be saying is that the sins you do commit are just not imputed to you; they are forgiven the moment you commit them, but that you do commit them. That would be just plain wrong. Is that what you are saying? And what I mean whether you accept it as truth or not is willful sins. Sins you KNOW are wrong, but do them anyway.

 

[Ken Rank]

I know no matter how many times I've clarified that I do not commit WILLFUL sins, which is rebellion against what you KNOW to be right, I keep getting hit with I believe I am sinless. I do commit sins because I'm not perfect, but I don't know what they are until God sees fit to inform me. I know I've said it enough that it is only someone who loves to be an accuser of the brethren who will twist it and never try to understand.

We are in complete agreement. We don't willfully sin (rebellion) and instead we aim with the intent on hitting ONLY the righteousness of God. But, through ignorance or unintentioned actions, we do miss from time to time. When we do, we are expected to repent, learn from the mistake, and "go and sin no more." That is all I have said repeatedly and consistently in this thread. Blessings.

 

[Almost there]

Romans chapters 1-7 are about the law. What you quoted is recounting Paul still under the law as a Pharisee without the power of the Holy Spirit. "Who can save me from this body of death - Jesus." Chapter 8 goes more in depth of life in the Spirit rather than life still in the flesh. And that doesn't mean after we die. Flesh means our carnal nature.

But he is, in fact, occupying the flesh as he pens those words. I worded it that way because I've noticed that in the "Christian" circles, the phrase "in the flesh" can have multiple meanings. I'm a spiritual being (because I've been born again), but I am still "in the flesh", as in "occupying my earthly tent". But it's sinfulness no longer has power over me.

At this point, we get into Paul's words regarding "should I sin more that grace can abound more?" And we all know where he goes with that one.

 

[1stcenturylady]

We are in complete agreement. We don't willfully sin (rebellion) and instead we aim with the intent on hitting ONLY the righteousness of God. But, through ignorance or unintentioned actions, we do miss from time to time. When we do, we are expected to repent, learn from the mistake, and "go and sin no more." That is all I have said repeatedly and consistently in this thread. Blessings.

I agree. Some say "sin is sin" and there is no difference to God, but there is.

 

[Almost there]

But what you seem to be saying is that the sins you do commit are just not imputed to you; they are forgiven the moment you commit them, but that you do commit them. That would be just plain wrong. Is that what you are saying? And what I mean whether you accept it as truth or not is willful sins. Sins you KNOW are wrong, but do them anyway.

Who doesn't? Are you actually saying that you no longer sin intentionally. EVER? You've never cussed out another person, knowing you shouldn't? Never been angry at or hated another person, knowing you shouldn't? Looked at a scantily clad woman in a photo or facebook ad just a bit too long, knowing you shouldn't?

Etc.

All of those are "intentional sins". I do my best to avoid them and am usually successful, but, as Paul says in Romans 7:23, Thank God! It has been done by Jesus Christ our Lord. He has set me free.

 

[Almost there]

Romans chapters 1-7 are about the law. What you quoted is recounting Paul still under the law as a Pharisee without the power of the Holy Spirit. "Who can save me from this body of death - Jesus." Chapter 8 goes more in depth of life in the Spirit rather than life still in the flesh. And that doesn't mean after we die. Flesh means our carnal nature.

But I included verse 23.

 

[SBC]

I'm not seeing the Lord's words there. I'm seeing John's and Paul's words. And they are in English, making them, by definition, "interpretations" of the original text. I've found that when scripture appears to be contradictory, it is not scripture that is in error, but the interpretation that is in error.

Seems you are implying a contradiction, without identifying a contradiction.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[1stcenturylady]

But he is, in fact, occupying the flesh as he pens those words. I worded it that way because I've noticed that in the "Christian" circles, the phrase "in the flesh" can have multiple meanings. I'm a spiritual being (because I've been born again), but I am still "in the flesh", as in "occupying my earthly tent". But it's sinfulness no longer has power over me.

At this point, we get into Paul's words regarding "should I sin more that grace can abound more?" And we all know where he goes with that one.

Yes, Romans 8:8-9 talks about the carnal nature.

8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Who doesn't? Are you actually saying that you no longer sin intentionally. EVER? You've never cussed out another person, knowing you shouldn't? Never been angry at or hated another person, knowing you shouldn't? Looked at a scantily clad woman in a photo or facebook ad just a bit too long, knowing you shouldn't?

Etc.

All of those are "intentional sins". I do my best to avoid them and am usually successful, but, as Paul says in Romans 7:23, Thank God! It has been done by Jesus Christ our Lord. He has set me free.

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ has FREED me from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2

 

[Almost there]

Yes, Romans 8:8-9 talks about the carnal nature.

8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

I am most definitely "in my flesh". That's me in my avatar. I believe that is what Paul was talking about. As long as we are in this "tent", as he puts it, it is a constant battle. And even Jesus battled His flesh. That is why he sweat blood asking that this cup be taken away from him. His flesh and His spirit were most definitely at odds with one another.

It is a daily battle. It's why we are being perfected until the day we die. It is why it is described as a battle/fight that we engage in every single day as long as we occupy this tent. It is what I believe Paul was talking about in Romans 7.

 

[SBC]

As a father, but not a perfect father as is our Lord, my childrens' sins against me are forgiven, but trust me, they still sin against me. However, I continuously forgive them up to the point where they deny that I am their father.

Fortunately, our Creator is an even more perfect Father than me.

If you get my drift.

Sadly, I do get your drift -

Sin is against God. Only God forgives sin.
Men trespass against men. Men forgive each other for their trespasses against men.

So, congrats on being a father and the wonders and blessing that go hand in hand with being a parent.
However, I do not agree your children sin "against" you.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Almost there]

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ has FREED me from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2

Well, I agree with Romans 8:2, but not because I no longer sin, but because I am saved by faith, not by my own works, preventing me from boasting, as scripture says. And if I no longer sinned, I'd have a hard time with the sin of pride. I suppose I'd then be guilty of sin. Man, I sure want to scream out Romans 7 right now.

I am freed from the law of sin and death, and thanks to His Grace and mercy, I am offered immortality, in spite of my daily proving I am imperfect in this flesh.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I am most definitely "in my flesh". That's me in my avatar. I believe that is what Paul was talking about. As long as we are in this "tent", as he puts it, it is a constant battle. And even Jesus battled His flesh. That is why he sweat blood asking that this cup be taken away from him. His flesh and His spirit were most definitely at odds with one another.

It is a daily battle. It's why we are being perfected until the day we die. It is why it is described as a battle/fight that we engage in every single day as long as we occupy this tent. It is what I believe Paul was talking about in Romans 7.

Then I won't be able to convince you.

James 1 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Well, I agree with Romans 8:2, but not because I no longer sin, but because I am saved by faith, not by my own works, preventing me from boasting, as scripture says. And if I no longer sinned, I'd have a hard time with the sin of pride. I suppose I'd then be guilty of sin. Man, I sure want to scream out Romans 7 right now.

I am freed from the law of sin and death, and thanks to His Grace and mercy, I am offered immortality, in spite of my daily proving I am imperfect in this flesh.

The "works" Paul was talking about was circumcision, keeping special days, and eating only clean meat. These are all outward works. Not sinning is not a "work," it is a command. Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep my commandments."

 

[Almost there]

Sadly, I do get your drift -

Sin is against God. Only God forgives sin.
Men trespass against men. Men forgive each other for their trespasses against men.

So, congrats on being a father and the wonders and blessing that go hand in hand with being a parent.
However, I do not agree your children sin "against" you.

God Bless,
SBC

When I tell them what to do and they don't do it, they are sinning against me.

But it does bring up the concept of forgiveness. We are told to forgive them that sin against us without their asking for forgiveness, yet we seem to be taught by our leaders that to receive forgiveness from God we must ask for it.

It brings to mind the challenges to most people's beliefs that raise up from Romans 9:

14 Was God being unfair? Of course not. 15 For God had said to Moses, “If I want to be kind to someone, I will. And I will take pity on anyone I want to.” 16 And so God’s blessings are not given just because someone decides to have them or works hard to get them. They are given because God takes pity on those he wants to.

17 Pharaoh, king of Egypt, was an example of this fact. For God told him he had given him the kingdom of Egypt for the very purpose of displaying the awesome power of God against him, so that all the world would hear about God’s glorious name. 18 So you see, God is kind to some just because he wants to be, and he makes some refuse to listen.

19 Well then, why does God blame them for not listening? Haven’t they done what he made them do?

20 No, don’t say that. Who are you to criticize God? Should the thing made say to the one who made it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 When a man makes a jar out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar beautiful, to be used for holding flowers, and another to throw garbage into? 22 Does not God have a perfect right to show his fury and power against those who are fit only for destruction, those he has been patient with for all this time? 23-24 And he has a right to take others such as ourselves, who have been made for pouring the riches of his glory into, whether we are Jews or Gentiles, and to be kind to us so that everyone can see how very great his glory is.

 

[SBC]

But what you seem to be saying is that the sins you do commit are just not imputed to you; they are forgiven the moment you commit them, but that you do commit them.

No clue how you deduced such a thing. I said nothing nor implied such a thing.

That would be just plain wrong. Is that what you are saying?

No, that is what you said, (seemingly for me).

And what I mean whether you accept it as truth or not is willful sins. Sins you KNOW are wrong, but do them anyway.

Perhaps you can disclose;

Do you believe, you are saved and born of God?
Do you also believe, being saved and born of God, excludes your flesh?
And thus, while born of God, your natural flesh still sins?

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Ken Rank]

I agree. Some say "sin is sin" and there is no difference to God, but there is.

There is a "clear" differentiation in the Hebrew that deals with intent. Falling short with the intent on doing right, and falling short with the intent on rebelling. We fall short with the intent of doing right... Christians do not fall short by rebelling. If they do, I question whether or not they are really serious about their profession of faith.

 

[1stcenturylady]

No clue how you deduced such a thing. I said nothing nor implied such a thing.



No, that is what you said, (seemingly for me).



Perhaps you can disclose;

Do you believe, you are saved and born of God?
Do you also believe, being saved and born of God, excludes your flesh?
And thus, while born of God, your natural flesh still sins?

God Bless,
SBC

Well, I did say I was confused. And I read what you wrote a number of times.

Do you believe, you are saved and born of God?

Yes, because I now have the power to not sin. If I didn't have this power, then I wouldn't belong to Christ. Romans 8:9

Do you also believe, being saved and born of God, excludes your flesh?

The carnal nature is dead. My flesh and bones are growing old and will eventually decay altogether. But, I will be then given a new body.

And thus, while born of God, your natural flesh still sins?

No, not willfully which is knowingly.

 

[1stcenturylady]

There is a "clear" differentiation in the Hebrew that deals with intent. Falling short with the intent on doing right, and falling short with the intent on rebelling. We fall short with the intent of doing right... Christians do not fall short by rebelling. If they do, I question whether or not they are really serious about their profession of faith.

Unfortunately there are some who have gone to church, as I had for the first 30 years, without the power of the Holy Spirit. But when I truly repented of sin and wanted God to completely cleanse me of even the desire to sin, He filled me with His Spirit. Wow, I actually felt it. From that point on my life has been supernatural.

 

[SBC]

When I tell them what to do and they don't do it, they are sinning against me.

I disagree. I know of no Scripture saying to BELIEVE in mankind.
Men who do not BELIEVE in God, are sinning against God.
And it is their disbelief, and what they do while in disbelief is what is sin against God.
THAT is against God, and only forgiven By God, when a man becomes in belief and receives Gods forgiveness.

But it does bring up the concept of forgiveness. We are told to forgive them that sin against us without their asking for forgiveness, yet we seem to be taught by our leaders that to receive forgiveness from God we must ask for it.

Sin was first understood as a transgress against the law.
The Law, 10 Commandments + 600+ of Moses' law had much to do Between men.
So, yes, everything against the Law, pertaining to God or between men was called sin.
Yet we further know, knowledge, wisdom and understanding increases as one becomes steeped in Gods Word.

What I understand, I Trust the Lord has given me; which is as I have already in brief relayed.

To your point of what "your leaders" teach.
Asking God for His forgiveness, yes I would agree.
Repeatedly asking, I would not agree.

It brings to mind the challenges to most people's beliefs that raise up from Romans 9:

14 Was God being unfair? Of course not. 15 For God had said to Moses, “If I want to be kind to someone, I will. And I will take pity on anyone I want to.” 16 And so God’s blessings are not given just because someone decides to have them or works hard to get them. They are given because God takes pity on those he wants to.

17 Pharaoh, king of Egypt, was an example of this fact. For God told him he had given him the kingdom of Egypt for the very purpose of displaying the awesome power of God against him, so that all the world would hear about God’s glorious name. 18 So you see, God is kind to some just because he wants to be, and he makes some refuse to listen.

I have no issue with Gods behavior. He is perfect in all His ways, whether or not we understand it.

19 Well then, why does God blame them for not listening? Haven’t they done what he made them do?

20 No, don’t say that. Who are you to criticize God? Should the thing made say to the one who made it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 When a man makes a jar out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar beautiful, to be used for holding flowers, and another to throw garbage into? 22 Does not God have a perfect right to show his fury and power against those who are fit only for destruction, those he has been patient with for all this time? 23-24 And he has a right to take others such as ourselves, who have been made for pouring the riches of his glory into, whether we are Jews or Gentiles, and to be kind to us so that everyone can see how very great his glory is.

I agree. God is not the object of blame.

God Bless,
SBC