Did Paul consider himself a "sinner", are we supposed to think of ourselves as sinners...?

[Ken Rank]

Sorry about the 'snippy'. I am snippy about this thread because all the time I hear people say that they do not sin. That's the part that makes me snippy, not our conversation.

If you had read any of my previous posts (and there was no reason for you to, they weren't to you) you would have seen that I have been saying the same thing. We do miss the mark, perhaps unintentionally and in ignorance but that is still sin. Rebellion (or willful sin) is beyond unintentional or ignorant sin. The person who says they do not sin does not have an understanding of the human condition and the bible. I am not saying they don't belong to God, but I am saying they don't understand the bible on this subject.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

I doubt very much that Paul meant he was still chief of sinners

And nor do I.
I think that I relate to Paul pretty well.
All should for not one is good.
M-Bob

 

[ToBeLoved]

If you had read any of my previous posts (and there was no reason for you to, they weren't to you) you would have seen that I have been saying the same thing. We do miss the mark, perhaps unintentionally and in ignorance but that is still sin. Rebellion (or willful sin) is beyond unintentional or ignorant sin. The person who says they do not sin does not have an understanding of the human condition and the bible. I am not saying they don't belong to God, but I am saying they don't understand the bible on this subject.

I wasn’t writing specifically for you. It was for the thread. I thought it added value.

 

[SBC]

The person who says they do not sin does not have an understanding of the human condition and the bible. I am not saying they don't belong to God, but I am saying they don't understand the bible on this subject.

What do you mean, "the person who says says they do not sin"?

Which person?
A saved and born again person?
A person who rejects God?

Thanks,
God Bless,
SBC

 

[Ken Rank]

What do you mean, "the person who says says they do not sin"?

Which person?
A saved and born again person?
A person who rejects God?

Thanks,
God Bless,
SBC

Any person, believer or not, who says they do not ever sin is wrong. We exist in a fallen state, we will... perhaps unintentionally or unknowingly, miss the mark from time to time. I am not talking about rebellion (knowing the mark and aiming at another on purpose).... rather, I am talking about having the intention of hitting the mark God desires us to hit and just missing from time to time because we haven't been perfected yet.

Example? Ever gotten a little madder at someone than was called for? Taken too long a look at a member of the opposite sex? Not reflected the character of God in an emotional outburst?

 

[SBC]

Any person, believer or not, who says they do not ever sin is wrong. We exist in a fallen state, we will... perhaps unintentionally or unknowingly, miss the mark from time to time. I am not talking about rebellion (knowing the mark and aiming at another on purpose).... rather, I am talking about having the intention of hitting the mark God desires us to hit and just missing from time to time because we haven't been perfected yet.

Example? Ever gotten a little madder at someone than was called for? Taken too long a look at a member of the opposite sex? Not reflected the character of God in an emotional outburst?

Hi Ken. Thanks.

Without shame and with full conviction in the Truth of the Lord, I trust and believe Scripture, place my trust in the Lord, that I am forgiven my sins, saved and born of God, and sin "no more".

God Bless,
SBC

 

[JacksBratt]

Hi Ken. Thanks.

Without shame and with full conviction in the Truth of the Lord, I trust and believe Scripture, place my trust in the Lord, that I am forgiven my sins, saved and born of God, and sin "no more".

God Bless,
SBC

Well, not really.

In posts # 429 and #458 you state:

"EVERYTHING A MAN IN BELIEF DOES IS NOT SIN."

So, from your own statement, I would conclude that "you do sin"

You just don't call it sin, don't recognize it as sin and don't admit that you are a sinner based on the view that: "EVERYTHING A MAN IN BELIEF DOES IS NOT SIN."

And, you being a believer, you ignore the fact that you have committed a sinful act and justify it by saying EVERYTHING A MAN IN BELIEF DOES IS NOT SIN.

A sinful act is a sin.......no matter who commits it.

So, to say you sin no more, IMO is false.

 

[Ken Rank]

Hi Ken. Thanks.

Without shame and with full conviction in the Truth of the Lord, I trust and believe Scripture, place my trust in the Lord, that I am forgiven my sins, saved and born of God, and sin "no more".

God Bless,
SBC

I believe the same. And I also believe we are to "go and sin no more." But I also recognize that when God gave the Torah on stone to Israel, He also told them to keep it on their minds and hearts. They couldn't do that... we can't do that. That is why, as the mark of the new covenant, God is going to write that law on our minds and hearts Himself. That work has not been done yet. I accept the argument that that work has begun through the Spirit, but even it is given as a down payment toward much more to come (see 2 Corinthians 1:22 and 2 Corinthians 5:5). We have not been perfected, made incorruptible, and this writing on the mind and heart is part of the perfection process, when it is done we will be perfected because God's will and desire will be part of who and what we are. Until then, remain in a fallen state, imperfect, corruptible... trying to endure sound doctrine and sin no more... but we do fall short at times. We might be forgiven, but we can fall short. If that were not true then why would we be told to confess our sins one to another? Or why would we have to rebuke a BROTHER who has sinned? The rebuke isn't a shun... it is warning to learn from the mistake, repent, and get back in line with God's will.

 

[1stcenturylady]

What insight did you get...?

What would happen to you if you ever committed a "willful sin"...?, would you be forever condemned...?

God Bless!

You would have to repent. As Jesus said to Ephesus, go back and do the first works. It also could be a sign you've never repented in the first place. The power to not want to sin anymore is strong, but only if you have Him in you.

As far as Numbers 15, I found 6 parallels among Numbers 15, 1 Cor. 11 and Hebrews 10. It was very eye opening.

 

[2tim_215]

Another message we are given from scripture is that in spite of our rebellious and sin nature, once we get "born again" we now have the ability to stop sinning "theoretically" by the "renewing of our mind" (Romans 12:2) the point being, once we commit ourselves to God we no longer are under the sin bondage which we once was.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Not wanting to hoard... I said that I did not understand why you jumped in the way you had. For, I was dealing with a problem that someone was being. It seemed to me you were being oblivious to what I was dealing with. I think under different circumstances your commentary would have been appreciated.

You better get used to it, because everyone will comment here and there if something springs to mind.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Inanutshell -

If you believe you ARE forgiven, freed from Sin, but that you STILL Sin, as you say.

I can not tell you, convince you otherwise. I can not understand, your saying two opposites, are true.

I can simply say, I trust the Lord is true.
A man forgiven of/by the Lord, sins no more.

God Bless,
SBC

I agree a Christian does not commit willful sin anymore. But what I didn't understand about what I got from you is that you can commit "forgiven" sin. That doesn't make sense. You either commit sin, or you don't. How are you committing forgiven sin?

 

[Almost there]

I am being perfected until the day this body perishes in the first death. As long as I am in this "earthly tent" I am a "sinner". I need Jesus atoning blood every single day. I praise Him for his free gift every single day, for I need it every single day.

 

[SBC]

Well, not really.

In posts # 429 and #458 you state:

"EVERYTHING A MAN IN BELIEF DOES IS NOT SIN."

So, from your own statement, I would conclude that "you do sin"

You just don't call it sin, don't recognize it as sin and don't admit that you are a sinner based on the view that: "EVERYTHING A MAN IN BELIEF DOES IS NOT SIN."

And, you being a believer, you ignore the fact that you have committed a sinful act and justify it by saying EVERYTHING A MAN IN BELIEF DOES IS NOT SIN.

A sinful act is a sin.......no matter who commits it.

Your conclusion would be thus in error.
But then it is not you, who forgave me and freed me from sin.
Perhaps someday, the same will be for you.

So, to say you sin no more, IMO is false.

Perhaps someday, you will be in agreement with the Lord.

1 John 3
[5] And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
[6] Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1John.3

1. [9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1John.4

1. [7] Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1John.5

1. [1] Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2. [4] For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
3. [18] We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Rom 6

1. [18] Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
2. [22] But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Trust God. Believe and Speak His truth, not man's.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[1stcenturylady]

Any person, believer or not, who says they do not ever sin is wrong. We exist in a fallen state, we will... perhaps unintentionally or unknowingly, miss the mark from time to time. I am not talking about rebellion (knowing the mark and aiming at another on purpose).... rather, I am talking about having the intention of hitting the mark God desires us to hit and just missing from time to time because we haven't been perfected yet.

Example? Ever gotten a little madder at someone than was called for? Taken too long a look at a member of the opposite sex? Not reflected the character of God in an emotional outburst?

I know no matter how many times I've clarified that I do not commit WILLFUL sins, which is rebellion against what you KNOW to be right, I keep getting hit with I believe I am sinless. I do commit sins because I'm not perfect, but I don't know what they are until God sees fit to inform me. I know I've said it enough that it is only someone who loves to be an accuser of the brethren who will twist it and never try to understand.

 

[Almost there]

I agree a Christian does not commit willful sin anymore.

I do. But I do in the sense that Paul mentions in Does that mean I'm not a Christian?

Romans 7:15-23Living Bible (TLB)
15 I don’t understand myself at all, for I really want to do what is right, but I can’t. I do what I don’t want to—what I hate. 16 I know perfectly well that what I am doing is wrong, and my bad conscience proves that I agree with these laws I am breaking. 17 But I can’t help myself because I’m no longer doing it. It is sin inside me that is stronger than I am that makes me do these evil things.

18 I know I am rotten through and through so far as my old sinful nature is concerned. No matter which way I turn I can’t make myself do right. I want to but I can’t. 19 When I want to do good, I don’t; and when I try not to do wrong, I do it anyway. 20 Now if I am doing what I don’t want to, it is plain where the trouble is: sin still has me in its evil grasp.

21 It seems to be a fact of life that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22 I love to do God’s will so far as my new nature is concerned; 23-25 but there is something else deep within me, in my lower nature, that is at war with my mind and wins the fight and makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. In my mind I want to be God’s willing servant, but instead I find myself still enslaved to sin.

So you see how it is: my new life tells me to do right, but the old nature that is still inside me loves to sin. Oh, what a terrible predicament I’m in! Who will free me from my slavery to this deadly lower nature? Thank God! It has been done by Jesus Christ our Lord. He has set me free.

 

[SBC]

I agree a Christian does not commit willful sin anymore. But what I didn't understand about what I got from you is that you can commit "forgiven" sin. That doesn't make sense. You either commit sin, or you don't. How are you committing forgiven sin?

Some don't seem to get it.
All ones sins are forgiven. Period. Thereafter a born again man can not commit sin. Period.

Pertaining to a man born of God....
Wilful sin, oops sin, non intended sin, etc. ~ all man-made nonsense.

A man born of God does not commit sin, he can't.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Almost there]

Your conclusion would be thus in error.
But then it is not you, who forgave me and freed me from sin.
Perhaps someday, the same will be for you.



Perhaps someday, you will be in agreement with the Lord.

1 John 3
[5] And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
[6] Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1John.3

1. [9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1John.4

1. [7] Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1John.5

1. [1] Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2. [4] For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
3. [18] We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Rom 6

1. [18] Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
2. [22] But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Trust God. Believe and Speak His truth, not man's.

God Bless,
SBC

I'm not seeing the Lord's words there. I'm seeing John's and Paul's words. And they are in English, making them, by definition, "interpretations" of the original text. I've found that when scripture appears to be contradictory, it is not scripture that is in error, but the interpretation that is in error.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I do. But I do in the sense that Paul mentions in Does that mean I'm not a Christian?

Romans 7:15-23Living Bible (TLB)
15 I don’t understand myself at all, for I really want to do what is right, but I can’t. I do what I don’t want to—what I hate. 16 I know perfectly well that what I am doing is wrong, and my bad conscience proves that I agree with these laws I am breaking. 17 But I can’t help myself because I’m no longer doing it. It is sin inside me that is stronger than I am that makes me do these evil things.

18 I know I am rotten through and through so far as my old sinful nature is concerned. No matter which way I turn I can’t make myself do right. I want to but I can’t. 19 When I want to do good, I don’t; and when I try not to do wrong, I do it anyway. 20 Now if I am doing what I don’t want to, it is plain where the trouble is: sin still has me in its evil grasp.

21 It seems to be a fact of life that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22 I love to do God’s will so far as my new nature is concerned; 23-25 but there is something else deep within me, in my lower nature, that is at war with my mind and wins the fight and makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. In my mind I want to be God’s willing servant, but instead I find myself still enslaved to sin.

So you see how it is: my new life tells me to do right, but the old nature that is still inside me loves to sin. Oh, what a terrible predicament I’m in! Who will free me from my slavery to this deadly lower nature? Thank God! It has been done by Jesus Christ our Lord. He has set me free.

Romans chapters 1-7 are about the law. What you quoted is recounting Paul still under the law as a Pharisee without the power of the Holy Spirit. "Who can save me from this body of death - Jesus." Chapter 8 goes more in depth of life in the Spirit rather than life still in the flesh. And that doesn't mean after we die. Flesh means our carnal nature.

 

[Almost there]

Some don't seem to get it.
All ones sins are forgiven. Period. Thereafter a born again man can not commit sin. Period.

Pertaining to a man born of God....
Wilful sin, oops sin, non intended sin, etc. ~ all man-made nonsense.

A man born of God does not commit sin, he can't.

God Bless,
SBC

As a father, but not a perfect father as is our Lord, my childrens' sins against me are forgiven, but trust me, they still sin against me. However, I continuously forgive them up to the point where they deny that I am their father.

Fortunately, our Creator is an even more perfect Father than me.

If you get my drift.