Did Paul consider himself a "sinner", are we supposed to think of ourselves as sinners...?

[1stcenturylady]

1) all that he does "bad behavior", is NOT accounted as SIN, it is accounted as
FORGIVEN SIN.

1 John 2 [12]
I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

You keep saying, YOU are forgiven your sins, while saying, you continue to sin.
How is that possible for Gods Spirit to dwell IN you, while you ARE committing sin?

Further, once forgiven, you struggle between your minds thoughts and your hearts thoughts. Paul taught that, and spoke of his own human struggles, of wanting to follow his mind, instead of his heart.

When you follow your hearts thoughts; YOUR WORKS, Glorify God.
When you follow your minds thoughts; YOUR WORKS, do not Glorify God.
(Remember, the carnal mind is against God).

It is not about you "committing sin". It is about you NOT glorifying God, by what you do.

Glorifying God, IS, the accomplishments of our works.
We don't do works to gain, salvation. We do works after receiving our salvation.
We do works to Glorify God.
We are not "punished" for the sin we were, for the sin we committed. We are forgiven.
We are judged on the works, we did, to Glorify God.
Teach a man Gods Word, is a work, that glorifies God, and you will be Judged for that.
Get drunk on a Sat night. That work, is dead.

It's a process. The more you start listening to your heart, the more your works glorify God. The more you start listening to your heart, the less you acquiesce to the thoughts of your mind. The more that is accomplished, the closer you are to having a mind LIKE Christ.

Remember, ALL of your sins are forgiven. Your forgiveness is NOT about you. It is ALL for His name's sake, that you believed, and He forgave you. Your glory, is you become, born of God, like Him, a son of God. Glory to God is you become Gods inheritance.

God Bless,
SBC

Now I'm even more confused than ever of what you believe. You gave one scripture to back up a whole page, and I don't see that it explains what that verse says.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Read what the verse says and then read what Strong s says about the Greek word for lust.

I don’t think this one is complicated.

If you don’t like what it says, don’t try to goad me by saying I think breathing is a sin, talk with God and study it yourself.

God said it. Not me

You’re right it’s not complicated and you claim you’re being literal but you’re not. if a man looks at a woman for the purpose of lusting (or pleasure of a sexual desire) he commits adultry (a sexual sin). Purpose means reason... thus if I simply look at a woman and conclude she’s attractive as she walks by and then I look away that’s not the same thing. I wasn’t looking at her for the purpose of satisfying anything... she just happnend to be walking by and I saw her. I tried to utilize porn as an example of looking for or at women to for the specific reason of satisfying lust to help you out... didn’t work sadly. The problem seems to be that you don’t know how to properly utilize Strong’s concordance... and it’s managed to convince you that finding someone attractive is a sin... and you’re doomed to hell if you don’t seek forgiveness for that apperently. And hey I’m just being honest... according to your theology sin comes as easy as breathing... we have no victory over sin it’s just there. Jesus died on the cross simply for us to keep sinning just as we did in the OT just now we get a “sin free pass”

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Read what the verse says and then read what Strong s says about the Greek word for lust.

I don’t think this one is complicated.

If you don’t like what it says, don’t try to goad me by saying I think breathing is a sin, talk with God and study it yourself.

God said it. Not me

Also I am waiting for you to read the definition of adultry... I’ve read the definition under strong already

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Read what the verse says and then read what Strong s says about the Greek word for lust.

I don’t think this one is complicated.

If you don’t like what it says, don’t try to goad me by saying I think breathing is a sin, talk with God and study it yourself.

God said it. Not me

Lastly I suggest you open your mind up a bit... take a look at some commentaries regarding Mathew 5:28 none of them agree with you. I agree you can’t rely on commentaries alone... which is why I explained to you the meaning of the text.. but they can be utilized as a means of seeing if your view or position is at least within the same solar system as the common view.

 

[SBC]

Are you attracted to Jesus? No, because no one knows what He looks like, nor would any of us have that for someone who didn't have physical qualities.

Actually, Jesus was ordinary looking. Nothing of striking beauty or attractiveness.

Isa 53:
2 (b) [2] he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[GenemZ]

.
You need to Confess, and Repent of that anger, before it eats you up.

What anger? Eats me up? Are you well? I am not angry at all.


Looks like you need to confess a sin of presumption.

Psalm 19:13

"Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins;
Let them not have dominion over me.
Then I shall be blameless,
And I shall be innocent of great transgression."​

 

[1stcenturylady]

What anger? Eats me up? Are you well? I am not angry at all.


Looks like you need to confess a sin of presumption.

Psalm 19:13

"Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins;
Let them not have dominion over me.
Then I shall be blameless,
And I shall be innocent of great transgression."​

I see presumptuous sins as Numbers 15 sees presumption. It doesn't mean to make a mistake in assuming; that can be an honest mistake. But there is nothing honest about willful sin, otherwise known as rebellious sin, what Numbers 15 is talking about. So it makes more sense when you read Psalm 19:13
"Keep back Your servant also from willful rebellious sin; let them not have dominion over me. Then I shall be blameless, and I shall be innocent of great transgression."

How is an honest misunderstanding in presumption, a "great transgression"? But after saying that, there is another "presumption" that can be dangerous to our souls, and that is the false doctrine of presuming God winks at sin. I really feel sorry for those who use grace as a license to sin. The wages of sin is death.

 

[GenemZ]

I see presumptuous sins as Numbers 15 sees presumption. It doesn't mean to make a mistake in assuming; that can be an honest mistake.

I do not know what you wish to prove by jumping in that way.

He went beyond mere assuming... Look what he said.

.
You need to Confess, and Repent of that anger, before it eats you up.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Right -- Paul called himself Chief Amongst Sinners.

Yet I consider myself Chief Amongst Sinners.

My mentor told me that Paul had made that claim and that I could not. A Pastor on Christian radio stated that we should all feel that way. I agree with him.
M-Bob

 

[1stcenturylady]

I do not know what you wish to prove by jumping in that way.

He went beyond mere assuming... Look what he said.

I wasn't taking sides, nor have a followed your conversation with someone else. I have gotten a lot of insight from Numbers 15 about the difference in God's eyes between unintentional sin and willful sin, also called presumptuous sin. I just wanted to share. Sorry if you wanted to hoard the thread. This IS a public forum.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Right -- Paul called himself Chief Amongst Sinners.

Yet I consider myself Chief Amongst Sinners.

My mentor told me that Paul had made that claim and that I could not. A Pastor on Christian radio stated that we should all feel that way. I agree with him.
M-Bob

I don't and think its silly. I accept the gift Jesus gave me of His Spirit to help make me dead to sin. I doubt very much that Paul meant he was still chief of sinners, only that he was the same person who persecuted Christians BEFORE encountering Christ who filled him with His Spirit as well. Paul wasn't bragging that he was chief of sinners, and we should do likewise, just the opposite.

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

So ask yourself, does Jesus cleanse you of sin, or just cover it up and leave it there? That would be like a clean bandaide without cleaning out the pus.

 

[Neogaia777]

Do you think Paul was "bothered" somehow, or unsettled by what he was doing with his preaching, or ministry, that made him say he was the chieftain of sinners...?

That maybe he wasn't completely OK with it for some reason, and what might those reasons be if he was...?

Do any of you ever feel that way about what you preach...? If so, why...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I wasn't taking sides, nor have a followed your conversation with someone else. I have gotten a lot of insight from Numbers 15 about the difference in God's eyes between unintentional sin and willful sin, also called presumptuous sin. I just wanted to share. Sorry if you wanted to hoard the thread. This IS a public forum.

What insight did you get...?

What would happen to you if you ever committed a "willful sin"...?, would you be forever condemned...?

God Bless!

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The essence of Christianity is in admitting your own sinfulness, not thinking yourself less sinful than other people.

 

[GenemZ]

I wasn't taking sides, nor have a followed your conversation with someone else. I have gotten a lot of insight from Numbers 15 about the difference in God's eyes between unintentional sin and willful sin, also called presumptuous sin. I just wanted to share. Sorry if you wanted to hoard the thread. This IS a public forum.

Not wanting to hoard... I said that I did not understand why you jumped in the way you had. For, I was dealing with a problem that someone was being. It seemed to me you were being oblivious to what I was dealing with. I think under different circumstances your commentary would have been appreciated.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The verse I mentioned mentions coming short before the glory of the lord and sin as if they are two diffent things. Additionally, miss the mark... there is a verse that mentions pressing towards the mark for a prize of a high calling. Missing the mark refers to rightoueness not falling short of being the equivalent of God, but rather falling short of being like Christ being a Christian, being what God has for you to be in the body of Christ. To go wrong is the opposite of to be right or rightoueness... that’s beyond just missing an opportunity that’s going against God, that’s pure hatred, that’s homosexuality, that’s murder, that’s lasciviousness etc.

Christ commanded, "Be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect"; in Luke's version, "Be merciful, even as Your Father is merciful". What does St. Paul say? "Be imitators of God".

To fall short, to miss the mark, that's sin.

It would seem that you would prefer to identify "sin" as only those things which you yourself aren't guilty of, rather than what you might be guilty of. Christ said "Love your neighbor", not loving your neighbor is a violation of the commandment. What else does Christ say? "Why do you try and remove the speck from your neighbor's eye? First remove the log from your own eye". It's easy to be self-righteous, straining at gnats while swallowing camels, and being a white washed sepulcher. But Christ our Lord demands more from us, He demands that we pick up our cross and follow Him, and to love as He loved, and to suffer as He suffered, and to serve as He served. And if you are honest, you must admit that you do not, neither do I--none of us do.

The Christian doesn't say, "Lord, I thank You that I am not like all those sinners over there. Look at all the good I do!"

The Christian says, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner."

-CryptoLutheran

 

[2tim_215]

Do you think Paul was "bothered" somehow, or unsettled by what he was doing with his preaching, or ministry, that made him say he was the chieftain of sinners...?

That maybe he wasn't completely OK with it for some reason, and what might those reasons be if he was...?

Do any of you ever feel that way about what you preach...? If so, why...?

God Bless!

Paul considered himself the "Chiefest of Sinners" because when he was Saul (before God changed his name to Paul) he was persecuting Christians which was his job (possibly even having them crucified). When he said this, I believe he was giving all us Christians an important message. Paul tells us that as a high ranking Pharisee, although he thought he was a "perfect" Jew in that he was able to keep all the commandments (or so he thought), there was one commandment that he couldn't keep, thus proving that it was impossible for anyone to keep the Law (the only man who ever did was Jesus which is why His sacrifice freed us from our sins as believers and thus our guilt). I believe that the "one thing" that Paul was referring to was "coveting" but that's perhaps for another thread.

When Paul called himself "the Chiefest of Sinners" he's referring to himself in the past tense but after he confessed, he was absolved of that sin (the Old man Saul who was the sinner was gone, and the New Man Paul no longer had the sin that Saul had performed on his account, i.e, had been "wiped off God's books"). One prayer that I like to use for myself at times is in Latin:
"Quod Vixe Tege"
"Quod Vivam Rege"
which means "my past life hide", "my future guide"

Like some of you, when I saw these scriptures I thought to myself, "if Paul's the Chiefest of all Sinners", what does that make me? Quite humbling. But what is the real message to us here? Well, if Paul was the chiefest of all sinners as the scriptures point out, and yet God converted him and that he''d become perhaps is the "greatest" of all of the New Testament Apostles who wound up writing approximately 2/3 of the New Testament then so can we do great things for God if we apply ourselves.

Manasseh was perhaps the worse King Israeli ever had, yet we are told that towards the end of his life, while in captivity by the Assyrians, he repented and was saved. The evil that this King did while reigning is so terrible I don't even want to repeat it (if you want to know what he did, see 2 Kings 21 and 2 Chronicles 33).

Yet there's two important things that I believe that God is telling us here:
1) That God's grace and mercy are so great, He can salvage anyone, no matter how much of a sinner they may be ("though your sins be as scarlet, they can be as white as snow . . . " "and though they be red like crimson, they can be as wool", Isaiah 1:18).
2) No matter how bad our sins have been in this life, God can still forgive us if we truly repent and change our way of thinking. He convinced Manasseh that He is the one "true" God. Manasseh believed finally, committed a true repentance and served God the rest of his life according to the scriptures.

Keep in mind that Manasseh became King at just 12 years old, which could not be a very good thing and perhaps this was taken into account but I believe it would hold true for everyone, including you and me. Thank God for His mercy and His grace and His love for us.

This is very important for us to understand. Sometimes it becomes very difficult for us to even forgive ourselves which can cause us much strife. This is I believe a "tactic" used by Satan to convince us that we cannot be saved which is untrue. If God could save Manasseh and Paul who he himself said was "Chiefest of all Sinners" He can save each and every one of us, "no matter how deep the stains of sin" might be within us. His grace is greater than anything that we've ever done I believe.

And Manasseh is just one example, look at David who committed Adultery and Murder and yet we know he too was saved, and who would write most of the Psalms, probably the most beautiful prayers, songs, and poetry ever written even would did suffer the rest of his life because of his transgressions as God is a God is a God of Justice and thus He must judge (something we all have to consider as even though our sins are forgiven and we become saved, some transgressions will bring forth judgment which are basically consequences for our actions). But we need to realize that it's well worth it, considering the end result, being in heaven with God in a perfect environment, a small price to pay for eternal salvation.

Even the thief on the cross was brought to Paradise with Jesus, after more than likely living a complete life of sin, another demonstration of God's love for us and His desire is that no one would perish (2 Peter 3:9). If there's a way to us, He will find it and after He finds it, He will have great things for us to do as we serve Him and bring more glory to Him. Blessings.

 

[SBC]

Ok, so, now that I see your view a little bit better, I am in further disagreement.

Here is why:

Your explanation in blue...

Guy #1 is sinning because he is not "Born of God. CORRECT.
MANS SIN AGAINST GOD IS DISBELIEF.
What A MAN IN DISBELIEF DOES IS SIN.
Guy #2 is not sinning because he is "Born of God".. CORRECT.
EVERYTHING A MAN IN BELIEF DOES IS NOT SIN.

[/QUOTE]I most certainly do not believe that being saved gives me a license to sin.[/QUOTE]

And, who suggested such an ignorant thing? I didn't.

I most certainly believe that an action that is sinful is always sinful.

Exactly, for example, "what action", do you believe, a newborn baby, a toddler, a young child DOES, that is SINFUL?

And do you believe, they are born in sin, and commit sin?

The condition of the heart of the offender is not the contributing factor as to whether an action is sinful or not.

Disagree.

Matt 15
[8] This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[9] But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
[10] And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
[16] And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
[17] Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
[18] But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
[19] For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

[16] And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

If Guy #1 is sinning by doing a certain action, then, Guy #2 is also sinning by doing the same act.

[16] And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

It's ludicrous to believe that everything I do as a Christian is not sinful....due to the fact that I am a believer.

[16] And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

There is no question in my mind about that... if an act is a sin....its a sin.

[16] And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

My outlook on your theology is this.....
NOT EVERYTHING A MAN IN BELIEF DOES IS NOT SIN.
But rather.. Everything a man does in belief, though it is a sin, is forgiven, should be confessed as a sin, will not cause loss of salvation. The act is still sin. The man in belief is still a sinner BUT the man in belief is a Child of God and will still have eternal life.

What we will deal with for sins left unrepentant upon our death... I'm not sure.
However... we are to be judged. It is not a judgement of salvation or damnation... it's a judgement by fire...

All of our actions, during our time on earth as a "man in belief" will be tried by fire. All that will remain is what is righteous.

If nothing righteous is remaining.... the person will still have their salvation.

Your understanding and My understanding is not in agreement.

The Lord's understanding IS:
1) what goes IN the mouth, does not defile the man.
2) what goes IN the mouth, goes to the belly, ends up waste, (in the toilet).
3) what comes OUT of the mouth, from the heart, defiles the man.
4) all the Lord has not planted, shall be rooted up.

A man who declares BELIEF in the Lord; the Lord gives, the man a NEW HEART.
Heed the "giving" - It is a planting of/by the Lord - of HIS SEED - IN A NEW HEART.

Understand ~ What the Lord HAS planted, shall never be "rooted up".
Understand ~ What the Lord HAS planted, IS IN ONLY, in a NEW HEART.
Understand ~ What thereafter, comes forth OUT of a mans Heart, is pure, IS of/by the Lord.

You are trying to ignore, the Lords giving a man a new Heart.
You are trying to ignore, the Lords planting of His Seed, in the new Heart.
You are trying to place emphasis on what comes out of a mans MIND, in word and deed.
You are trying to ignore, the Lords forgiveness, of the mans WHO WAS in standing against the Lord, is NOW in standing WITH the Lord, and the Lords POWER, keeps the man in standing WITH the Lord.

IOW - You are KEEPING, your mind's word and deed at the forefront.
While the Lord gives the man, a new heart, a new Seed, a new spirit, His Spirit, and a personal relationship in SPIRIT.

You are teaching your relationship with the Lord, is between the Lords Spirit and your MIND. It isn't.

It is IN a mans NEW HEART, where a Spiritual relationship between a man and the Lord takes place.

You are implying that a perfect relationship between a mans MIND and the Lord, MUST be accomplished, BEFORE, the man is freed from sin.

Not true. The relationship between the Lord and a man, is Spiritual, between the Lords Spirit, and the mans new spirit, in his new heart, where the Lords Spirit dwells.

It is the man, who; is forgiven of ALL sin.
It is the man, who; learns to subject his MIND, to his new hearts thoughts.

It is the Lord, who; is patient with the man learning to subject his MIND to his hearts thoughts. A man WHO is slow, to subject his MIND to his hearts thoughts, is not committing sin. He is simply losing opportunity, to exalt the Lord in Glory, of/by, his new Heart.

A man can not DO, SAY, two things at once.
IF a man is doing, saying, out of his MIND, regarding the Lord, it is lip service.
IF a man is doing, saying, out of his NEW HEART, regarding the Lord, it glorifies the Lord.

You negate the Lords forgiveness, as a fail, when you claim forgiveness, while claiming to continue in sin.

I agree with the Lord. He forgives all sin. He makes a man a new heart, a new spirit, and puts that new heart and new spirit within a man. That His Spirit dwells within the man, WITH, the mans new spirit forever, and continually feeds the man, teaches the man, HIS Truth, His Wisdom, His Understanding.

I also believe the Lord is patient, while a man is learning to subject his MIND to the thoughts of his new Heart.

You have the man, being in SIN, committing SIN, somehow, saved FROM SIN, yet not really.

I trust the Lord;
Forgiven IS forgiven. Saved IS saved. Restored IS restored. Quickened IS quickened.
Freed from sin, IS freed from sin. The Lord with the man forever, IS forever with.

And totally reject, that, the Lord dwells IN a man, WHILE a man is committing sin.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[SBC]

Now I'm even more confused than ever of what you believe. You gave one scripture to back up a whole page, and I don't see that it explains what that verse says.

Inanutshell -

If you believe you ARE forgiven, freed from Sin, but that you STILL Sin, as you say.

I can not tell you, convince you otherwise. I can not understand, your saying two opposites, are true.

I can simply say, I trust the Lord is true.
A man forgiven of/by the Lord, sins no more.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Mountainmanbob]

What would happen to you if you ever committed a "willful sin"...?, would you be forever condemned...?

God Bless!

Willful Sin?
Christians do that occasionally. But, their sin should sicken them and bring them once again to a point of Repentance.

Forever condemned?
Not if truly Born Again.

M-Bob