Question about loyalty after death

[DanielJS97]

I've recently been reading Milton's Paradise Lost, which (among other things) talks about the fall and redemption of man.

It occurred to me, though, that if Satan was able to defy God, then surely any heavenly being will be able to do the same. What guarantee does God have that his subjects in heaven will remain loyal to him, and not follow in the footsteps of the fallen angel?

 

[Hieronymus]

God has no guarantee any of his creatures remain loyal to Him.
Apparently it's about Love, so it's not about obedient robots.
And so some of his creatures rebel against Him.

 

[Adstar]

I've recently been reading Milton's Paradise Lost, which (among other things) talks about the fall and redemption of man.

It occurred to me, though, that if Satan was able to defy God, then surely any heavenly being will be able to do the same. What guarantee does God have that his subjects in heaven will remain loyal to him, and not follow in the footsteps of the fallen angel?

Well the Bible reveals that 1/3rd of the Angels are with satan in His rebellion against God... But the Bible also reveals that when this Creation project reaches it's conclusion then we shall exist for ever and ever with God in His perfect eternal existence.. So while there is no direct scripture saying that no rebellion will ever happen again.. If we believe the Book of Revelation then it shows we shall exist with God in a perfect existence forever... So no rebellion will ever happen again.. It's boils down to Faith..

 

[paul1149]

If there is another rebellion, it will quickly be put down based on existing case law. The accusation against God raised in the Garden has been legally resolved, and need never be worked out or tolerated again. Also, those in heaven will have chosen God at the worst time, here on the dark battlefield, and are less likely to abandon Him once the reward comes.

I go into more detail here.

 

[Sarah G van G]

I would just like to add that God is, of course, omniscient. Nothing can take Him by surprise. God knew exactly what Satan would do, God knows everything.

Psalm 147:4-5

4 He counts the number of the stars;
He calls them all by name. 5 Great is our Lord, and i mighty in power;
His understanding is infinite.

 

[Tinker Grey]

What would an omniscient being would need a guarantee?

 

[Phil 1:21]

I would just like to add that God is, of course, omniscient. Nothing can take Him by surprise. God knew exactly what Satan would do, God knows everything.

Psalm 147:4-5

4 He counts the number of the stars;
He calls them all by name. 5 Great is our Lord, and i mighty in power;
His understanding is infinite.

Excellent insight. Also, God alone is sovereign. The great irony here is that Satan only rebelled/s because God gave/gives him the strength to do so. The same goes for those among us who mock the Lord -- their strength to do so actually comes from Him.

"The LORD works out everything to its proper end—even the wicked for a day of disaster" Proverbs 16:4

 

[DogmaHunter]

I would just like to add that God is, of course, omniscient. Nothing can take Him by surprise. God knew exactly what Satan would do, God knows everything.

So God knew ahead of time that he was about to create Evil itself, who would go on to revolt and take a bunch of other angels with him, corrupt human kind and spread death, pestilence and all kinds of evil and....

God decided to go ahead anyway?

If you would know in advance that your children would grow up to become to most vile and evil mass-murderers, rapists, etc... Would you still have children?

I sure wouldn't. I'ld consider myself an accomplice if I knew it in advance and decided to go for it anyway.

 

[paul1149]

God decided to go ahead anyway?

Yes, because He also knew the price of bring us back to Him, and He knew He was willing to pay it.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Yes, because He also knew the price of bring us back to Him, and He knew He was willing to pay it.

I think that in the story, this evil angel existed before humans.
He could have also just not create this evil angel and just create humans instead.

That way, the fall wouldn't even have happened and there would have been no need for his senseless elaborate plan to sacrifice himself to himself in order to forgive us for having been created with the incapabilities of living upto the rules he implemented and being lead astray by an evil monster he created as well, to save us from himself.

And you forgot to answer my question: would you still have children if you knew in advance that they would grow up to become the very definition of evil?

 

[paul1149]

I did answer your question. His intention all along was to have children who love Him. That intent will not be thwarted, regardless of how some choose.

 

[Phil 1:21]

So God knew ahead of time that he was about to create Evil itself, who would go on to revolt and take a bunch of other angels with him, corrupt human kind and spread death, pestilence and all kinds of evil and....

God decided to go ahead anyway?

If you would know in advance that your children would grow up to become to most vile and evil mass-murderers, rapists, etc... Would you still have children?

I sure wouldn't. I'ld consider myself an accomplice if I knew it in advance and decided to go for it anyway.

But here is the difference: God is all-knowing; we are not. To think that we are capable of fully understanding the Creator of everything by our extremely limited human understanding is like thinking one is capable of building a suspension bridge across the Pacific ocean because they once played with an erector set.

The problem of evil has plagued theologians an philosophers for thousands of years. And while some believe the question itself disproves the existence of God, what it actually does is illustrate the gap between the omniscience of God and the limited understanding of humanity. Although, in reality, we need look no further than creation itself to see this disparity illustrated.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I did answer your question.

No. You completely circuled around it.

My question to you was, if YOU knew in advance that YOUR children would grow up to become the very embodiment of the word "evil", would you still have kids?

His intention all along was to have children who love Him. That intent will not be thwarted, regardless of how some choose.

The point is about god creating Satan. Not humans or "children who love him". Satan might be called his "child" also, but clearly that child doesn't "love him". So if the point is that create beings that love - then why create a being that would become the very symbol of hate and all that is bad?

It seems that you're just digging a deeper whole for yourself.

 

[DogmaHunter]

But here is the difference: God is all-knowing; we are not.

Yes, that was my point.... He knew he was about the create the very embodiment of evil who would not only revolt and take a bunch of "angels" along with him in that rebellion, he'ld also go on to corrupt everything. And god knew.

To think that we are capable of fully understanding the Creator of everything by our extremely limited human understanding is like thinking one is capable of building a suspension bridge across the Pacific ocean because they once played with an erector set.

Yet, that doesn't stop theists from pretending they know/understand god.
Remarkable how these "god is mysterious" and "god has a plan" cards are played every time when such controversial points are raised that put this god in a bad light.
Funny how these cards never come up when god is being placed in a good light.

The problem of evil has plagued theologians an philosophers for thousands of years. And while some believe the question itself disproves the existence of God, what it actually does is illustrate the gap between the omniscience of God and the limited understanding of humanity. Although, in reality, we need look no further than creation itself to see this disparity illustrated.

I'm not talking about the "problem of evil".

I'm merely pointing out that if the premise is that god knows everything in advance, that he also knew that he was about to create the very embodiment of evil who would go on to corrupt everything.

If I knew in advance that my children would grow up to become vile evil creatures, I wouldn't have children.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Yes, that was my point.... He knew he was about the create the very embodiment of evil who would not only revolt and take a bunch of "angels" along with him in that rebellion, he'ld also go on to corrupt everything. And god knew.

Of course. God is omniscient.

Yet, that doesn't stop theists from pretending they know/understand god.

Just because we don't know everything about God doesn't mean we know nothing about God.

If I knew in advance that my children would grow up to become vile evil creatures, I wouldn't have children.

And I doubt you'd find someone to state otherwise. Perhaps you could expound on your statement and let us know exactly what point you were trying to convey.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Of course. God is omniscient.

But apparantly not omnibenevolent, because why would goodness itself purposefully create evil itself?

Just because we don't know everything about God doesn't mean we know nothing about God.

Right, right,.... I get it:
- when god does a seemingly good thing, it is because you know "god is good" (because god says so in the bible?)
- when god does a seemingly bad thing, then "god is mysterious" or "god has a plan", which somehow provides some mysterious unknown reason for why this seemingly bad thing, is actually god. Including if that bad thing, is the about the worst possible thing one could do: create evil itself.

And I doubt you'd find someone to state otherwise. Perhaps you could expound on your statement and let us know exactly what point you were trying to convey.

I wouldn't have kids in that case, because my moral compass would prevent me from unleashing the very embodiment of evil upon the world.

But your God doesn't seem to be hindered by such ethics.

It means your god intentionally created the very embodiment of evil and source of all corruption. This means your god is essentially responsible for everything that goes wrong and all evil that takes place.

But I'm sure there's something I'm missing, right? And I bet that what I'm missing is that super-secret ingredient that is found in the "god is mysterious" concept that nobody knows about or understands.

 

[Nithavela]

If he wants to stop people after death from falling from belief, he can just create the correct surroundings for them to never fall, even without taking away free will. And of course he could do that, too.

 

[Phil 1:21]

But apparantly not omnibenevolent, because why would goodness itself purposefully create evil itself?

Like I said in my initial post, we simply are not capable of understanding everything there is to know about God. Seeing as He created the universe and everything in it, and I can't even order coffee at Starbucks in their native language (frappa cappa whatever -- coffee, cup, thanks), this really is quite reasonable.

I wouldn't have kids in that case, because my moral compass would prevent me from unleashing the very embodiment of evil upon the world.

But your God doesn't seem to be hindered by such ethics.

It means your god intentionally created the very embodiment of evil and source of all corruption. This means your god is essentially responsible for everything that goes wrong and all evil that takes place.

But I'm sure there's something I'm missing, right? And I bet that what I'm missing is that super-secret ingredient that is found in the "god is mysterious" concept that nobody knows about or understands.

When I was a child I thought my parents were stupid. I thought I knew more than them. I judged their actions by my childish understanding of the world. When I grew up I realized how wrong I had been. We are all basically a bunch of little kids trying to make sense of the things our Father does. The reality is, we're just not capable of that level of understanding.

 

[Nithavela]

When I was a child I thought my parents were stupid. I thought I knew more than them. I judged their actions by my childish understanding of the world. When I grew up I realized how wrong I had been. We are all basically a bunch of little kids trying to make sense of the things our Father does. The reality is, we're just not capable of that level of understanding.

Why is that?

 

[Phil 1:21]

Why is that?

Because we are not omniscient.