Are you squeamish about the word "catholic"?

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I would have thought that one of these lists would trace back to Peter or is there a historical event that is used as the starting point for a Patriachate in Antioch?

Is this what you were looking for?

Primates of the Apostolic See of Antioch | Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese

Forgive me...

 

[tz620q]

Is this what you were looking for?

Primates of the Apostolic See of Antioch | Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese

Forgive me...

Yes, thank you. The list shows the inexorable necessities of history, where the Patriarch of Antioch has for long periods of time, not been in Antioch. So either we calcify ourselves in the non-agreement of the Council of Chalcedon in 451 or we acknowledge that Patriarchates can change over time. Moscow being a good example on the part or the Orthodox Church. To remove Moscow from the list of Patriachates would put 60% of the Orthodox Church following an impostor. I know this post must come off as combative; but it really isn't. I have been thinking about this recently and arrived at the conclusion that on this topic, we cannot form the lines so rigidly. Christian populations have shifted over history and Patriarchates are there to represent the people, not plant a flag and leave.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Yes, thank you. The list shows the inexorable necessities of history, where the Patriarch of Antioch has for long periods of time, not been in Antioch. So either we calcify ourselves in the non-agreement of the Council of Chalcedon in 451 or we acknowledge that Patriarchates can change over time. Moscow being a good example on the part or the Orthodox Church. To remove Moscow from the list of Patriachates would put 60% of the Orthodox Church following an impostor. I know this post must come off as combative; but it really isn't. I have been thinking about this recently and arrived at the conclusion that on this topic, we cannot form the lines so rigidly. Christian populations have shifted over history and Patriarchates are there to represent the people, not plant a flag and leave.

Not combative to me.
The Patriarchate relocated to Damascus.

Forgive me...

 

[tz620q]

Not combative to me.
The Patriarchate relocated to Damascus.

Forgive me...

But is it still a Patriarchate? I would agree that there is a bishop of Antioch for the Orthodox Church in Antioch; but I think history has relegated the Antioch Christian church to a position of so little power and prestige in the Christian Church as a whole that it has removed the patriarchate status from the Bishop there. I think this is a truly lamentable development; but until we acknowledge this reality, we are stuck in 451.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

But is it still a Patriarchate? I would agree that there is a bishop of Antioch for the Orthodox Church in Antioch; but I think history has relegated the Antioch Christian church to a position of so little power and prestige in the Christian Church as a whole that it has removed the patriarchate status from the Bishop there. I think this is a truly lamentable development; but until we acknowledge this reality, we are stuck in 451.

It truly comes down to faith and trust. Several things were rushed in, propped up and designated at The Church of Antioch. The enemy loves a good lie.

In truth, we come down to one of two.

Forgive me...

 

[tz620q]

It truly comes down to faith and trust. Several things were rushed in, propped up and designated at The Church of Antioch. The enemy loves a good lie.

In truth, we come down to one of two.

Forgive me...

I am really not trying to argue the merits of one Patriarch of Antioch over another or to say one is a fake. I would rather we discuss what would happen if we merely label them as Bishops of Antioch with no claim to being a Patriarch. If we do that, having several Bishops might be a scandal, but would more closely represent what they have become. I see this as a continuation of the criteria used at Chalcedon for elevating Contantinople, a divisive move that was eventually accepted by Pope Leo. Likewise, calling the Bishop of Moscow a Patriarch is merely an affirmation of the power of the position. If we can elevate Bishops to Patriarch, should we not also be allowed to demote Patriarchs to Bishop?

 

[DamianWarS]

More correctly we call that "Apostolic succession".

"Apostolic succession is the method whereby the ministry of the Christian Church is held to be derived from the apostles by a continuous succession, which has usually been associated with a claim that the succession is through a series of bishops."

Where the bishop is, so also is The Church.

Forgive me...

As the thread unravels "Apostolic" is tradition overseen and propagated by bishops appointed from succession that traces back from a long line of bishops to a historic community established by an apostle. Do I have it right now? or is there something else you care to add?

It seems a major difference between what is Apostolic and what is not is someone along the line didn't follow the rules and was not granted their Apostolic gold star (demoted to small 'a' apostolic) I would say Apostolic is a misnomer just as Catholic is.

 

[tz620q]

As the thread unravels "Apostolic" is tradition overseen and propagated by bishops appointed from succession that traces back from a long line of bishops to a historic community established by an apostle. Do I have it right now? or is there something else you care to add?

It seems a major difference between what is Apostolic and what is not is someone along the line didn't follow the rules and was not granted their Apostolic gold star (demoted to small 'a' apostolic) I would say Apostolic is a misnomer just as Catholic is.

So the exception disproves the rule?

 

[tz620q]

dp

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

As the thread unravels "Apostolic" is tradition overseen and propagated by bishops appointed from succession that traces back from a long line of bishops to a historic community established by an apostle. Do I have it right now? or is there something else you care to add?

It seems a major difference between what is Apostolic and what is not is someone along the line didn't follow the rules and was not granted their Apostolic gold star (demoted to small 'a' apostolic) I would say Apostolic is a misnomer just as Catholic is.

If you couple "what" is being traditioned, I would agree.
Yes, DOGMA would be that gold star. Leave the DOGMA, leave "The Church"

For instance. If an individual Church body decided to join the Papacy. Then by that movement it is no longer The Church.

Forgive me...

 

[Ron Gurley]

"catholic" means ~universal.
Catholic as in RCC means something else.

catholic (adjective)

1. broad or wide-ranging in tastes, interests, or the like; having sympathies with all; broad-minded; liberal.

2. universal in extent; involving all; of interest to all.

3. pertaining to the whole Christian body or "CHURCH".

The "CHURCH" ("The Living Church?") is the collective "Body" of BELIEVERS,
the members of the "Body of Christ"
who are permanently indwelt by
God the Holy Spirit at the time of their Salvation.
The "Head" and the "Corner Stone" is God the Son, the historical person of
Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ, The Messiah, The God-Man.
He is the "Bridegroom".
Revelations 22: 17 The (God the Holy) Spirit and the "bride" (CHURCH) say, "Come "
Its "building blocks" are the "Grace through Faith" good news which guides the estranged to become a saved BODY + SOUL + SPIRIT.
Gospel: Jesus the Divine Messiah has COME to save Man from the prison of his sins.

Ephesians 4: 2-6; 1 Corinthians 1:10; Ephesians 1:22; Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18; Revelation 22:16;
Psalm 118:22; Isaiah 28:16; Matthew 21: 42-45

Psalm 118:22
The stone (Jesus) which the builders (Israel) rejected has become the chief corner stone.(of the CHURCH)

Matthew 23:37 ...Jesus' Lament over Jerusalem (Israel?)
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
How often I wanted to gather your children together,
the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings,
and you were unwilling.

Isaiah 28:16
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD,
" Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, a costly cornerstone
for the foundation, firmly placed.
He who believes in it will not be disturbed.

 

[W2L]

I asked you a question and you're dancing around it.
Are you going to engage in two way conversation? Or just see if you can beat my posts to death?



Forgive me...

What scripture teaches us about the catholic church?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

What scripture teaches us about the catholic church?

Well, that answers that question.

Forgive me...

 

[W2L]

Well, that answers that question.

Forgive me...

Please, show me the scripture.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Please, show me the scripture.

Not interested. No two way conversation.

Forgive me...

 

[W2L]

What part of this do you not understand? These are the important points of the faith you have been reading.

The Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed (381 A.D.)
In English:

1. We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;
2. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, Begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made:
3. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
4. And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;
5. And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;
6. And ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father;
7. And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, Whose kingdom shall have no end.
8. And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke by the Prophets;
9. And we believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
10. We acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins.
11. We look for the Resurrection of the dead,
12. And the Life of the age to come. Amen.

These are the beliefs of the 'catholic' faith.

Forgive me...

But that wasnt an answer to the question.

The creed is a dogmatic statement that goes beyond scripture by expressing a belief in the Trinity.

Forgive me...

Not interested. No two way conversation.

Forgive me...

Ironically the question was about what part of the Creed i dont understand. I have been answering that question with my own question. I dont understand where catholic is in scripture. Thats the part i dont understand. I just noticed you referred to the trinity as well, but im more interested in the word catholic.

 

[W2L]

Let me get this straight. Catholicism names itself the "catholic" church and then comes up with this creed to defend that assertion, which must be recited and defended at all costs? Is that correct?

 

[tz620q]

"catholic" means ~universal.
Catholic as in RCC means something else.

catholic (adjective)

1. broad or wide-ranging in tastes, interests, or the like; having sympathies with all; broad-minded; liberal.

2. universal in extent; involving all; of interest to all.

3. pertaining to the whole Christian body or "CHURCH".

I agree with everything that you said here and it got me thinking that if Jesus is the cornerstone shouldn't we call our churches "Jesus-believing" Churches, not "Bible-believing" Churches? I see the very act of replacing Jesus with a book, even if it is the Word of God, a form of idolatry.

In regards to your definitions of catholic, it is interesting that when deciding what books were in the Bible and what would be excluded, this criteria of universality was the prominent one. The book had to be accepted by all, everywhere, for all times since Christ. Many regional books didn't make the cut, not because of bad doctrine, but because they were not read in Church everywhere.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Let me get this straight. Catholicism names itself the "catholic" church and then comes up with this creed to defend that assertion, which must be recited and defended at all costs? Is that correct?

I'll answer with questions too then.

How about the prior creed? "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
Which must be recited... confessing with our mouth.

Forgive me...

 

[W2L]

I'll answer with questions too then.

How about the prior creed? "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
Which must be recited... confessing with our mouth.

Forgive me...

I answered your question. You are being unreasonable. Please answer my question.