Original Sin?

[Ron Gurley]

A&E / Man's SPIRIT is immortal.
Their Body/Soul is mortal.
God judges SPIRITS. He IS only Spirit.
Jesus will judge ONLY the WORKS of believers. Their SPIRITS are not judged.
The Body/Soul combo "houses" the SPIRIT. At its "death", the SPIRIT returns to God who gave it.

DEATH...then what?

What I choose to be BELIEVE for true Christ folowers ONLY:

" To be absent from the BODY/SOUL combo (death on earth) is to be present (SPIRITUALLY) with the TRI-UNE GOD (eternal SPIRITUAL life in the heavenly realms)"....a paraphrase of Paul, emphasizing differences in BODY / SPIRIT.

2 Corinthians 5: 1-15 (NIV)...BELIEVERS: Our Heavenly Dwelling
8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer
to be away from the BODY and at home (HEAVEN) with the Lord.(SPIRITUAL PRESENCE)

1 Peter 3: 18-19 (NIV with my comments)
(Jesus the Christ's BODY) being put to death in the flesh, but made (spiritually) alive by (God) the (Holy) Spirit,
19 by whom also He (resurrected Jesus) went and preached to (~released) the spirits (souls) in prison,...

("Paradise" + "Hades" = "Abraham's Bosom"...fulfilled by Jesus!) SEE:Luke 16: 19-31

For the THREE parts of man:==> SPIRIT, SOUL and BODY,
SEE:
1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NIV)
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through.
May your whole SPIRIT, SOUL and BODY be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 (NASB) ....difference in SOUL and SPIRIT
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword,
and piercing as far as the DIVISION of SOUL and SPIRIT, of both joints and marrow, (BODY)
and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the "heart"(cardia).(spiritual conscience center)

Luke 16: 19-31...Jesus teaching on Jewish Tradition?...Jesus' descent to set the captives free...
TWO unseen and separated spiritual PLACES for the bodies / souls / spirits of the DEAD..."Paradise"* + "Hades"** = "Abraham's Busom"

Luke 23:43...Jesus: 1 of 7 sayings from the Cross
Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."...(on the cross)...before earthly Resurrection!
...Jesus was in "paradise" between the time of Body/Soul combo death and "resurrection" / TRANSFORMATION into His SPECIAL "spirit-body".

IT IS ALL ABOUT SPIRIT !!

Ecclesiastes 12...Remember God in Your Youth: AT DEATH...
7 then the dust (Body/Soul combo) will return to the earth as it was, (Genesis 2:7)
and the SPIRIT (breath of life) will return to God who gave it. (Genesis 1:26)
8 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “all is vanity!”

Isaiah 42:5
Thus says God the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread out the earth and its offspring,
Who gives "breath" to the people on it (Body/Soul combo) And
SPIRIT to those who walk in it,

Zechariah 12:1 ...
Thus declares the Lord who stretches out the heavens,
lays the foundation of the earth, and
forms the SPIRIT of man within him,

Hebrews 9:27
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men (Body/Soul combo) to "die" once
and after this comes judgment,(of immortal SPIRIT)

 

[Ron Gurley]

Sin does NOT "kill"/"perish" SPIRIT which is immortal.

Sin separates Man from God.

For believers, CONFESSION (agreeing with God) restores FELLOWSHIP. 1 John 1

For UN-believers, sin is NOT forgiven/cleansed, and spiritual separation from God is eternal in the "lake of fire" with the unholy 3 etc for which it was created.

 

[~Anastasia~]

For by one man death entered into the world.

God was talking about physical death when He warned that disobedience would lead to death. It wasn't immediate death, no. But God Himself is the source of life, and through disobedience Adam separated himself from continual communion with God, with life. As a result, death entered creation and all born since that time are born into a fallen creation where everyone/everything dies. It was not so in God's creation, which was "very good".

But in a sense Adam's spirit suffered as well, when he separated himself from God. Not only was Christ necessary to defeat physical death so that we could live forever with God, but it was also necessary for Him to reconcile us with God, making our spirits "alive" again in Him, in a sense.

So in a way, it is both. But God was warning thst physical death would be the natural consequence of disobedience. And as it turns out, not just for Adam but for all of creation, because of Adam's priestly role.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

A&E / Man's SPIRIT is immortal.
DEATH...then what?

It is an interesting topic this one. For me, my understanding of scripture is that death is compared to as a sleep in which all wait until the coming of Christ at which time the dead (those that sleep) will rise from their graves for the judgement. According to the scriptures we are not in heaven as many claim but await for the 2nd coming...

To be dead is to sleep....

John 11:11-13
11, These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleeps; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12, Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13, Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14, Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Mark 5:35-39
35, While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue's house certain which said, Thy daughter is dead: why troublest thou the Master any further? 36, As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe. 37, And he suffered no man to follow him, save Peter, and James, and John the brother of James. 38, And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly. 39, And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleeps.

Matthew 27:50-53
50, Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51, And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52, And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose <These saints were in the grave sleeping not heaven as some claim>, 53, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Sleeping with the fathers means to be dead (theses are a few scriptures there are too many to list)....

Act 13:36
For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption

Deuteronomy 31:16
And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

1 Kings 2:10
So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

1 Kings 11:43
And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.

1 Kings 14:20
And the days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his stead.

1 Kings 14:31
And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess. And Abijam his son reigned in his stead.

1 Kings 15:8
And Abijam slept with his fathers; and they buried him in the city of David: and Asa his son reigned in his stead.

1 Kings 15:24
And Asa slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father: and Jehoshaphat7 his son reigned in his stead.

1 Kings 16:6
So Baasha slept with his fathers, and was buried in Tirzah: and Elah his son reigned in his stead.

1 Kings 16:28
So Omri slept with his fathers, and was buried in Samaria: and Ahab his son reigned in his stead.

1 Kings 22:40
So Ahab slept with his fathers; and Ahaziah his son reigned in his stead.

1 Kings 22:50
And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father: and Jehoram his son reigned in his stead.

2 Kings 8:24
And Joram slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David: and Ahaziah his son reigned in his stead.

(many more in the books of Kings, Chronicle and Samuel)

Job 7:21
And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be

Job 14:12
So man lies down, and rises not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Psalms 13:3
Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Ecclesiastes 9:3-6
3, This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. 4, For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5, For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6, Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Psalms 115:17
The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Jesus sending out the 12 giving them the Holy Spirit to raise the dead.......

Matthew 10:5-8
5, These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6, But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7, And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8, Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

The dead that sleep are to be risen from the graves and wake from death for the judgement at the second coming. If the dead are already in heaven why would they be raised from the graves at the 2nd coming?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13, But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14, For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15, For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16, For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17, Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 (Feast of first fruits Resurrection to eternal life - Jesus v 20)
50, Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51, Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53, For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54, So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55, O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Philippians 3:10-11
10, That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11, If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Hebrews 9:27
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men once to "die" once and after this comes judgment

Happy to talk about the Spirit and Soul latter when I have more time (another nice study)....

May God bless you are you seek him through his Word...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Sin does NOT "kill"/"perish" SPIRIT which is immortal. Sin separates Man from God. For believers, CONFESSION (agreeing with God) restores FELLOWSHIP. 1 John 1 For UN-believers, sin is NOT forgiven/cleansed, and spiritual separation from God is eternal in the "lake of fire" with the unholy 3 etc for which it was created.

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

[All4Christ]

It is an interesting topic this one. For me, my understanding of scripture is that death is compared to as a sleep in which all wait until the coming of Christ at which time the dead (those that sleep) will rise from their graves for the judgement. According to the scriptures we are not in heaven as many claim but await for the 2nd coming...

To be dead is to sleep....

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13, But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14, For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15, For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16, For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17, Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 (Feast of first fruits Resurrection to eternal life - Jesus v 20)
50, Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51, Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53, For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54, So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55, O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Philippians 3:10-11
10, That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11, If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Hebrews 9:27
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men once to "die" once and after this comes judgment

First - almost all of these Scripture references are before Christ’s resurrection. Those who were dead - or sleeping - were raised. Everything is different now. Even so, the Old Testament teaches that the righteous are abiding in the bosom of Abraham. Remember the story that Jesus told about Lazarus and the rich man in Sheol?

When we die, there is a particular judgment in which we either experience a measure of bliss or a measure of torment [“It is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes the judgement”(Hebrews 9:27)] . Should we stay the course, our souls will rest in blessed repose, where there is no sickness, sorrow, pain, etc. Those who are not saved will receive a measure of torment. (The thief experienced paradise the very same day of his death)

Not all Christians will experience that blessed repose before the Final Judgment. Rest assured, our bodies - both those who have died before us, and those who are still alive, will be transformed. There will be a physical resurrection at the final judgment.

Scripture does not indicate unconsciousness in between death and the final judgment. It does indicate rest, as in abiding in God, but those who die before us are very much alive in Christ. Remember the thief - “Today you will be with me in Paradise”. Also, Scripture teaches that the prayers of the saints who died are offered up to God, and especially references the martyrs.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

First - almost all of these Scripture references are before Christ’s resurrection. Those who were dead - or sleeping - were raised. Everything is different now. Even so, the Old Testament teaches that the righteous are abiding in the bosom of Abraham. Remember the story that Jesus told about Lazarus and the rich man in Sheol?

When we die, there is a particular judgment in which we either experience a measure of bliss or a measure of torment [“It is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes the judgement”(Hebrews 9:27)] . Should we stay the course, our souls will rest in blessed repose, where there is no sickness, sorrow, pain, etc. Those who are not saved will receive a measure of torment. (The thief experienced paradise the very same day of his death)

Not all Christians will experience that blessed repose before the Final Judgment. Rest assured, our bodies - both those who have died before us, and those who are still alive, will be transformed. There will be a physical resurrection at the final judgment.

Scripture does not indicate unconsciousness in between death and the final judgment. It does indicate rest, as in abiding in God, but those who die before us are very much alive in Christ. Remember the thief - “Today you will be with me in Paradise”. Also, Scripture teaches that the prayers of the saints who died are offered up to God, and especially references the martyrs.

Nope... Please read the scriptures carefully in post # 64

 

[All4Christ]

Nope... Please read the scriptures carefully in post # 64

I’ve read them, but I don’t come to the same conclusions you do. The view I presented is the historic Christian understanding and is Scripturally sound.

Certainly, we can agree to disagree though.

To everyone, remember that Traditional Theology is a forum to discuss Traditional Christian beliefs. Sharing traditional viewpoints with each other is the purpose of this forum. I recommend checking out the Statement of Purpose for Traditional Theology if you haven’t done so already.

 

[All4Christ]

All that said - soul sleep is off topic to this thread anyways, so we should stick to the subject at hand...original sin. If you want to discuss the traditional understanding of soul sleep, please create a separate thread.

 

[Serving Zion]

We still are born in God's image, albeit a marred image.

Hi there, I have just been referred to this thread as it was linked from another one. I understand you made this comment a long time ago, but it indicates to me that there is a concept of Original Sin behind it.

Doctrines of Christianity without the doctrine of Original Sin should agree that the spiritual nature of the human at birth did not change as a result of the fall, but rather it is the nature of human behaviour that a child learns that has been marred.

Would you be able to confirm this for me, whether I am not in cohesion with Orthodox Christian teaching on this matter, and if that is the case, could you please include a reference to the origin of the doctrine that says babies are born (spiritually) marred.

 

[All4Christ]

Hi there, I have just been referred to this thread as it was linked from another one. I understand you made this comment a long time ago, but it indicates to me that there is a concept of Original Sin behind it.

Doctrines of Christianity without the doctrine of Original Sin should agree that the spiritual nature of the human at birth did not change as a result of the fall, but rather it is the nature of human behaviour that a child learns that has been marred.

Would you be able to confirm this for me, whether I am not in cohesion with Orthodox Christian teaching on this matter, and if that is the case, could you please include a reference to the origin of the doctrine that says babies are born (spiritually) marred.

We often refer to the fall as the Ancestral Sin to differentiate between the Western understanding of that Original Sin and the Orthodox understanding. Our belief is essentially that that “Original” sin does not pass on guilt...i.e. we are not born in a state of sin, nor are we culpable for Adam’s sin. Rather, through the sin of one, death entered this world. We believe that the primary consequence of this sin is death - mortality, corruption of the world, suffering, etc. The second effect is a propensity or tendency to sin. Our guilt, however, is based on our own actions and sin.

St Cyril of Alexandria:

How did many become sinners because of Adam?… How could we, who were not yet born, all be condemned with him, even though God said, ‘Neither the fathers shall be put to death because of their children, nor the children because of their fathers, but the soul which sins shall be put to death’? (cf. Deut. 24:18) … we became sinners through Adam’s disobedience in such manner as this: he was created for incorruptibility and life, and the manner of existence he had in the garden of delight was proper to holiness. His whole mind was continually beholding God; his body was tranquil and calm with all base pleasures being still. For there was no tumult of alien disturbances in it. But because he fell under sin and slipped into corruptibility, pleasures and filthiness assaulted the nature of the flesh, and in our members was unveiled a savage law. Our nature, then, became diseased by sin through the disobedience of one, that is, of Adam. Thus, all were made sinners, not by being co-transgressors with Adam,… but by being of his nature and falling under the law of sin… Human nature fell ill in Adam and subject to corruptibility through disobedience, and, therefore, the passions entered in”.[v]

Of course, this needs to be read in context with other Church Fathers. We are not born with the state of sin. We are not culpable of Adam’s sin. We are born in the image of God. However, sin is a disease - and human nature was infected. When we are born, we are not in a state of sin. We are not born with a total absence of Grace. We are not born with total depravity. Humanity does have a nature, however, that has a propensity to sin - a result of that first sin. We as individuals contract that disease of human nature, and thus fall prey to the passions.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Adam's soul before sin was ordered in such a way that the powers that originate in organs within the body, such as seeing comes from eyes, were obedient to the higher powers that have no organic source, such as the will and reason. Adam was master over his body. The body obeyed the will. Adam experienced no involuntary movement from the body.

After sin the spiritual powers of the intellect were subjected to the lower powers of the senses, or flesh. Adam's body rebelled against his spirit. Our bodies, our flesh is in a state of rebellion against our spirit, our will and our ability to reason. This internal struggle was not natural to Adam before he sinned bu became natural to him afterwards. St Paul writes about the rebellion of the sensitive powers(flesh or body) against the rule of intellect(will and reason) in Romans Ch. 7

The Inner Conflict
Romans 7 15-25
15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. 17 But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, 23 but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin.


What is the law of sin? If it feels good do it. This is the law that pleases our senses. The sensitive powers of the soul. Powers that originate in the organs of our body.

What is the law of God? Do what ought to be done. This is the true object of our will and perfects the powers of the intellect. Powers that do not originate in any organ of the body.

Original sin turned the order of human nature upside down. The powers that originate in flesh rebelled against the spiritual powers that make us like God. Man became more like animals and less like God in nature.

Eve receives revelation of good that pleases the senses. The eyes see and the apple becomes the object of the will. Consequently the will becomes subject to the sensual powers of the flesh. Through the organic power that arises from the eyes. The object of the will before sin was what pleases the intellect. After sin it is what pleases the senses.

So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise,

As the children of Adam we inherit his fallen nature. As all life on earth reproduces it's kind so do humans.

Human Nature before sin was ordered to immortal life and like holy spirits end in eternal life with God.

After sin human life is ordered to the flesh and to survival and like the lower animals, to end in death..

 

[Serving Zion]

We often refer to the fall as the Ancestral Sin to differentiate between the Western understanding of that Original Sin and the Orthodox understanding. Our belief is essentially that that “Original” sin does not pass on guilt...i.e. we are not born in a state of sin, nor are we culpable for Adam’s sin. Rather, through the sin of one, death entered this world. We believe that the primary consequence of this sin is death - mortality, corruption of the world, suffering, etc. The second effect is a propensity or tendency to sin. Our guilt, however, is based on our own actions and sin.

St Cyril of Alexandria:



Of course, this needs to be read in context with other Church Fathers. We are not born with the state of sin. We are not culpable of Adam’s sin. We are born in the image of God. However, sin is a disease - and human nature was infected. When we are born, we are not in a state of sin. We are not born with a total absence of Grace. We are not born with total depravity. Humanity does have a nature, however, that has a propensity to sin - a result of that first sin. We as individuals contract that disease of human nature, and thus fall prey to the passions.

Thank you for this, and as I recognise it has been some time, I thank you for refreshing your memory of the contents of our conversation thus far

What I see in this is delicate, but telling: that in Adam there was already the propensity to sin, but that it's opportunity was not made available until the human's weakness was found. It is these words here that I draw attention to: "in our members was unveiled a savage law". By saying that the savage law was unveiled, he is saying that it was already there but it was protected by the grace of a human sanctified in God's view (in their case, it was sufficient to only not eat of the fruit of the tree, in our case it is sufficient to crucify the flesh with it's passions - much more complex, seeing as the vast intricacies of human weakness have been learned over time).

If you would accept this, then I would still contend that a baby is not born with a marred image, but it is born into a state of disadvantage where it is destined to corruption by a corrupted world.

 

[Eloy Craft]

What I see in this is delicate, but telling: that in Adam there was already the propensity to sin, but that it's opportunity was not made available until the human's weakness was found. It is these words here that I draw attention to: "in our members was unveiled a savage law". By saying that the savage law was unveiled, he is saying that it was already there but it was protected by the grace

Nice! Very good observation. Please indulge the addition of my own reflection as I read your posts.

Considering the Law in the human body, a body that was mortal, but shared in the immortality of it's principle of life, the human soul in Original Innocence. By the Grace of God as mentioned. The body though mortal, once removed from immortal life attempts to over ride the Law of immortality that it was subject to before sin. Mortal life is life that dies, and life destined for death is obedient to the law of survival. Blind urges to survive and maintain the body come with a morality based on the good as it is determined by the senses. So, an environment that doesn't include death, doesn't include the need to survive. A human body in that environment obeys the will and intellect of it's soul. An environment that includes death inherently includes the need to survive and the human body is obedient to the laws of death.

 

[JackRT]

I do not read the Genesis myth as a fall from an original state of perfection into sin and death. The first couple were completely innocent and naive creatures. They were certainly capable of making a mistake but, without knowing good from evil, they lacked even the ability to sin. That ability came only with them eating of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". To me the story is a "coming of age story". Our mythical first couple graduated from animal status into to fully self aware human beings capable of making moral judgements. This is not an Original Sin story but rather an Original Blessing story that should be celebrated. We are not a people fallen from an original state of perfection into sin and death. What we are is a people that is still evolving. We are no longer "just animals" but something more.

Why the expulsion from Eden? In the mythology, I believe it to be symbolic that mankind was no longer a naïve creature living in moral ignorance but had become real men and women living in a real world where there was real good and evil.

In the words of John Spong: "Every living thing, plant and animal is programmed to survive. What is true of all these living things is also true of human life. The only difference is that we human beings are self-conscious, while plants and animals are not. If survival is our highest goal, self-centeredness is inevitable and thus this quality becomes a constant part of the human experience. Traditionally, the church has called this "original sin" and has explained it with the myth of the fall. That was simply wrong. Survival is a quality found in life itself. There was no fall. Self-centered, survival driven, self-conscious creatures is simply who we are. There is thus no such thing as "original sin" from which we need to be rescued by a divine invader. So much of traditional Christianity assumes this false premise."

 

[lesliedellow]

What kind of death is being referred to in "bold" in this verse?:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

Thanks!

I suppose the underlying idea is that, since Adam and his other half were the only two people on the planet, when they sinned, it was also mankind as a whole that sinned. So, ever since, every member of mankind has been a partaker in its collective sin.

 

[Ron Gurley]

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12).

Romans 5 (NASB)...Die / Death of mortal Body/Soul combo...Spirit is immortal and judged...Eccl. 12.
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died FOR us. (substitutional atonement)
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son,
much more, having been reconciled, we shall be (certain to be) saved by His life.
11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

12 Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world,
and "death" (Death of mortal Body/Soul combo) through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned
— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not IMPUTED when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses (' Law), even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, (willful disobedience)
who is a type of Him (Jesus) who was to come.

Luke 23:46...Jesus on the Cross:
And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said,
“Father, into Your hands I commit My SPIRIT (immortal).”
Having said this, He breathed His last (Body/Soul combo bled to death)

 

[~Anastasia~]

Adam was made a priest in a sense over creation (as all human persons are part of a priesthood in a sense). He was sort of the "go-betweeen" linking the Creator God who is Spirit - to the material created world. Because man is composed of both God-breathed spirit and created material body.

So when man sinned and broke his own connection with God, all of creation suffered that loss. It doesn't make us all "guilty" of Adam's sin, but it does mean we are all born into a world now imperfect and infected with sin, so that each of us is infected sooner or later as well (if we live long enough to sin).

Since man could no longer serve his purpose of connecting the material world with God, God Himself served that role through the Incarnation of Jesus Christ - God (who is Spirit) took on human flesh (material, created) and became the perfect Man so that He could serve as the great High Priest and restore all of the created cosmos to God. He undid the curse we brought on creation (death) through our sin, and perfected everything - or made the way for its perfection when God finally restores all things.

God gives us the choice whether we will participate with Christ in cooperation with Him or reject it.

(And by all this I do not mean to imply that Jesus was "plan B" ... Rather He was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. God always knew what would happen anyway.)



Just expanding a bit on this post, which is insightful IMO:

I suppose the underlying idea is that, since Adam and his other half were the only two people on the planet, when they sinned, it was also mankind as a whole that sinned. So, ever since, every member of mankind has been a partaker in its collective sin.

 

[~Anastasia~]

And since I see this is an old thread, and considering we are in Traditional Theology, I will add that Orthodoxy does not agree with Catholicism in the sense that they speak of "Original Sin". So we usually refer to the fall in terms of "Ancestral Sin" in order to distinguish what we mean.

Just to make a distinction between the finer points. Most Protestants actually base their beliefs out of the Catholic teaching, since that was their backdrop.