Original Sin?

[Jerry Shugart]

What kind of death is being referred to in "bold" in this verse?:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

Thanks!

 

[Honoluluwindow]

Don't worry about it

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Don't worry about it

What, me worry?

 

[Honoluluwindow]

What? Me worry?

When they saw the star they rejoiced with exceeding great intojoy!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Surf's up!

 

[~Anastasia~]

What kind of death is being referred to in "bold" in this verse?:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

Thanks!

Hello Jerry, welcome to CF and welcome to Traditional Theology!

That refers to physical death, which came about as a result of the sin of Adam. In sinning, Adam chose to turn away from God, who is the Source and Creator of Life. As a result of shutting Himself from the direct grace of God, mankind fell under the curse of death. Not because God wished to punish man, but fir the same reason that a man who shuts himself into an iron box can no longer see the sunlight.

Death entered the world in this way.

Sometimes it is explained as spiritual death, which is also fitting in a way, but it is important that thus understanding doesn't take away from the fact that we die physically because of the curse of sin, Christ defeated physical death, and one day we won't be subject to it anymore.

And it may be fitting that you ask today. Today we have celebrated the Resurrection of our Lord, whose death (as God, the Source of life!) destroyed death, and whose resurrection made the way as the first fruits for us all to be made alive again in the age to come, with glorified bodies that can no longer die.

Hope that explains. And I hope I'm coherent. We have extensive services for Holy Week and Pascha, and I'm not long home from the last one, which is followed by a feast for all.

Again, welcome to CF!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hello Jerry, welcome to CF and welcome to Traditional Theology!

Greetings Anastasia!

That refers to physical death, which came about as a result of the sin of Adam.

I cannot understand how that can be true. After all, since mankind has been denied the very thing which would enable a person to live for ever (Gen.3:22-24) then all people are destined to die physically (Heb.9:27).

Therefore, I do not think that a man dies physically when he sins:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

The death in "bold" must be speaking about some other kind of death.

Spiritual death?

Thanks!

 

[EdyChristian28]

What kind of death is being referred to in "bold" in this verse?:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

Thanks!

IF we look at the idea from a literal stance than we acknowledged that it was infact the eating of a fruit.

What it entails really is that from Gods point of view is

Well you disobeyed me once, so it doesn't matter how many times I tell you not to do something, your going to do it again.
Which is why he was so severe with the punishment.

If we add the concept of them becoming aware that they were naked. We can assume that they had sex. God saying how he would give the snake a role to play in the seed of man and women for I suppose interfering.

So Original Sin is non other than. You guessed it Sex

Sex is the original sin. Afterward God is like

alright you did it so might as well be fruitful and multiply

I would compare this to how people who make wild documentaries don't intervene unless its something important.

So sex is the original sin. I thought you already knew this.

But yea I mean being brought into this world and being told don't have sex. If only everyone else was so willing.

But a lot of times being affectionate towards the opposite sex makes them want to have sex so its kinda hard to avoid it.

But thats why Mr. portfolio headshots said don't worry about it.

One man sinneth and so all men have sinneth. Except the one who came as the word made flesh.

Finally the division and multiplication of man has taken its toll and wear on the once very pure and godlike DNA of adam and eve. and that explains why we people use to live much longer. Less disease. Apparently man use to be more intelligent and able to survive in harsh conditions. If you look at pictures of comparing dogs only over the last century, the same breeds don't look anything like they use to. Domesticated. And those old breeds are long gone since the switch to puppy chow and backyards from fresh meat and good old outdoors.

Apparently Man had a much better connection to the divine and thats why people use to have much more contact with God. Now we're mostly just dealing with Al Capone and friends, Demons. They're very easy to get in contact with apparently.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I might wish to ask the OP - since this was placed in Traditional Theology ...

Are you interested in knowing the answer to your question as the Apostles, early Church, understood it? Or are you interested in gathering a collection of views from whatever people may think of it?

Traditional Theology is a topic-driven forum. We discuss here how things gave always been understood since the early days of the Church. I gave you a sort of "tip of the iceberg" of the "big picture" involving God, man, sin, redemption, etc. from the Orthodox perspective, which relies exclusively on the early understanding. Catholics, for example, will have certain nuances that they have developed within their understanding.

But if you wish a freely open "what do you think?" that offers a wide range of ideas from people's own interpretations, then the topic needs to be moved to General Theology.

Please let us know. And thank you.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

But if you wish a freely open "what do you think?" that offers a wide range of ideas from people's own interpretations, then the topic needs to be moved to General Theology.

I will move it to General Theology.

Thanks!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Greetings Anastasia!



I cannot understand how that can be true. After all, since mankind has been denied the very thing which would enable a person to live for ever (Gen.3:22-24) then all people are destined to die physically (Heb.9:27).

Therefore, I do not think that a man dies physically when he sins:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

The death in "bold" must be speaking about some other kind of death.

Spiritual death?

Thanks!

You are correct that man was denied access to the Tree of Life as a result of his sins. That is actually in line with what I'm saying.

If man had remained in close fellowship with God, he would never have been subject to death. Adam living in Eden would not have died.

But because man rebelled against God and so sinned in that rebellion, man no longer had perfect fellowship with God. He knew what it was TO sin. It wasn't something magical inherent in the fruit - it was the act of disibedeience that opened his eyes. He understood that he could disobey God and do the opposite, and this realization made him understand guilt, and so on. His fellowship with God was broken, he lost grace. He had sinned. As a result of his sin, because man was in dominion over the created physical world (we are the crowning part of creation, made in the image of God, to rule over the physical world, given dominion over it) ... because of our position relative to creation, when Adam sinned, sin affected all of creation. Sin entered the physical world. And so, grace (the energy of God, who is the Source of Life) was interrupted. Like cutting of the path of a beam of light that once shown on a thing, when cut off, that thing will be in darkness. So man, who disobeyed, and so cut himself off from the grace of God, Who IS life, began to be subject to death, and all creation with him.

Creatures no longer recognized him (man) as being like God. They became fearful of him, savage to him, savage to one another. Peace began to be destroyed. All creation "fell" as a result of Adam's sin, because of the loss of God's grace.

No, man did not immediately die a physical death the day he ate the fruit. That was how the deceiver tricked him. But man became SUBJECT to death by that act. And this is why God denied him access to the Tree of Life, which was actually a mercy, not a punishment. If man lived forever in sin ... he could never be resurrected (eventually) in Christ, who would one day come to restore and save all Adam had lost, as "the new Adam".

It is a large and beautiful tapestry that all fits together, with all of human history.

But I'm not sure if this is what you want to hear about.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I will move it to General Theology.

Thanks!

Ah, ok. I did not see this before I elaborated. I hope you find what you are looking for. Peace to you!

 

[EdyChristian28]

thanks for agreeing with me anastasia

 

[St_Worm2]

Sex is the original sin.

"Sex" was God's first COMMANDMENT to us EC (not the first sin). It's important to note that this particular commandment was given to mankind PRIOR to the time our progenitors committed their first sin in the Garden (and therefore, prior to the "Fall" as well).

Genesis 1
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
28 God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”​

The Lord goes on to say:

Genesis 2
18 Then the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.”
19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.
20 The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him.
21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place.
22 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.
23 The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones,
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”
24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
25 And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.​

Again, this commandment was given PRIOR to our first parents' sin, and it is confirmed by both the Lord and the Apostles in the NT. IOW, it was God's intention from the beginning that a men and women should be joined together as one/one flesh (marry), that they should "be fruitful and multiply" (have sex/have babies), and in so doing, "fill the earth".

Yours in Christ,
David
p.s. - "Original Sin" doesn't refer to our progenitor's first sin in the Garden of God, rather, it refers to the result, or perhaps better, the "effect", that their first sin had on us, their progeny .. e.g. Romans 5:12.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Post #8: "Sex (fornication?) is the original sin"

Shirley you jest! The FIRST DISOBEDIENCE of A&E was the first sin for which they were DISCIPLINED.
Genesis 3

The doctrine of "original sin" (as described by the RCC) is a FALSE DOCTRINE!

How about CHECKING FACTS?
1.The first disobedience by A&E against God in Eden
2. The 'free will" to decide was given to A&E
3. DISCIPLINE = Genesis 3...NOT "the fall of man"

Both SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS can be spiritually IMPUTED!

IMPUTED SIN / Righteousness:?...Romans 5:12. 15-17 (NIV)...Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ

 

[All4Christ]

Post #8: "Sex (fornication?) is the original sin"

Shirley you jest! The FIRST DISOBEDIENCE of A&E was the first sin for which they were DISCIPLINED.
Genesis 3

The doctrine of "original sin" (as described by the RCC) is a FALSE DOCTRINE!

How about CHECKING FACTS?
1.The first disobedience by A&E against God in Eden
2. The 'free will" to decide was given to A&E
3. DISCIPLINE = Genesis 3...NOT "the fall of man"

Both SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS can be spiritually IMPUTED!

IMPUTED SIN / Righteousness:?...Romans 5:12. 15-17 (NIV)...Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ

If you look at the verses in Romans 5, you will see that through Adam's sin, death entered this world. Sin is not imputed to humanity. Rather, the world was corrupted through that ancestral sin, and humanity falls to that corruption. Death was introduced to all creation, including humanity. We all sin because of / as a result Adam's, but we do not have guilt in Adam's sin. "Imputed sin" has a very different definition in the Eastern Church as opposed to the common understanding in the Western Church (though that understanding is not universal).

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

The Blessed Augustine by his own admission did not have proper training in Greek (see below for references). He translated the Greek "because of" as the Latin "in whom". This was one of the big reasons for the understanding of original sin in many Western churches.

In regards to Augustine's translation of Romans 5:12:

Saying that all have sinned in Adam is quite different than saying that all sinned because of him. Augustine believed and taught that all humanity has sinned in Adam (Meyendorff, 1979, p. 144). The result is that guilt replaces death as the ancestral inheritance (Augustine, 1956b)

Ancestral Versus Original Sin | St. Mary Orthodox Church in Central Square, Cambridge

Augustine (1956a). Nicene and post nicene fathers: Four anti-pelagian writings, vol. 1, Grand Rapids , Michigan: Eerdmans.

Augustine (1956b). Nicene and post nicene fathers: Four anti-pelagian writings, vol. 5,Grand Rapids , Michigan: Eerdmans.

 

[Ron Gurley]

"The Blessed Augustine"...Who dat??

 

[All4Christ]

"The Blessed Augustine"...Who dat??

Our tradition (Orthodox) refers to St. Augustine of Hippo as the Blessed Augustine.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Post #18: "Our tradition (Orthodox) refers to St. Augustine of Hippo as the Blessed Augustine."

What if one does not know YOUR "tradition"...OR...does not BELIEVE in YOUR "tradition"...AND INSTEAD...Believes ONLY in the Bible (the "word of God") which is SCRIPTURA SUPREMA! THEN WHAT?

The RCC doctrine of "original sin" is a FALSE DOCTRINE, NOT supported by SCRIPTURE.

OP" Q: What kind of death is being referred to in "bold" in this verse?:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12).

A: The "death" when the MORTAL Body/Soul combo separates from IMMORTAL Spirit.

 

[All4Christ]

Post #18: "Our tradition (Orthodox) refers to St. Augustine of Hippo as the Blessed Augustine."

What if one does not know YOUR "tradition"...OR...does not BELIEVE in YOUR "tradition"...AND INSTEAD...Believes ONLY in the Bible (the "word of God") which is SCRIPTURA SUPREMA! THEN WHAT?

You can believe whatever you want. Most of Western Christianity (including many evangelicals), however, is very influenced by Augustine's doctrine of original sin.

The RCC doctrine of "original sin" is a FALSE DOCTRINE, NOT supported by SCRIPTURE.

First, Orthodox Christians are not part of the RCC. Our Churches split from eachother in 1054.

Second, I think you missed the point of my post. My post was teaching against the typical understanding of original sin. We call Adam's sin the Ancestral Sin to differentiate. We aren't born with the guilt of Adam's sin. We also don't agree with total depravity, or even inheriting the "sin nature". We do inherit a fallen nature, but we are still made in the image of God.

OP" Q: What kind of death is being referred to in "bold" in this verse?:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12).

A: The "death" when the MORTAL Body/Soul combo separates from IMMORTAL Spirit.

Ok. Ultimately, is referring to our bodies being corruptible. We die. If it wasn't for Christ becoming incarnate, dying on the cross and resurrecting, we wouldn't have the opportunity for eternal life.

Death was entered into the world. We all experience corruption. We separate ourselves from God when we submit to that corruption - in other words, when we sin. We no longer are in perfect union with Christ. However, praise God, He has made union with Him possible through Christ. He has offered salvation to us all. (Of course, we can still refuse it or stray from God.). In the end, after His final judgment, the world will be made new. Corruption will be gone. Our bodies will be resurrected and will be united with our souls.

Praise God for what He has done for us!

ETA: You keep talking about Suprema Scriptura. Suprema Scriptura is pretty much the same as Prima Scriptura. Suprema Scriptura means that the Bible is the primary authority, but other authority is also accepted to a lesser degree. Is that what you mean? I'm guessing you don't understand the beliefs of Orthodox (and of many other Traditional Christians) on this matter. That, however, is another subject.