Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

[Dartman]

Nobody said anything about "talking from the grave!" Have you, or do you know anyone who has, been dead and can tell us what, if anything, they experienced while they were dead? I have heard and read about people who have. Colton Burpo comes to mind.

..... are you kidding??
Don't tell me you swallow the NDE rubbish!!!!
Alex Malarkey comes to mind;
The 'Boy Who Came Back from Heaven' Retracts Story
You KNOW there is no consistent story between all the NDE claims, right?
First, the VAST majority of people who experience "clinical death", do NOT claim any kind of NDE!
Second, the details of the stories seem to be VERY consistent with the CULTURAL expectations of the person!!
It is blatantly obvious, these NDE's are purely dream state, and have NOTHING to do with literal death.
Near-death studies - Wikipedia
But, even MORE significant, the Scriptures clearly state dead people are NOT alive!

 

[Der Alte]

..... are you kidding??
Don't tell me you swallow the NDE rubbish!!!!
Alex Malarkey comes to mind;
The 'Boy Who Came Back from Heaven' Retracts Story
You KNOW there is no consistent story between all the NDE claims, right?
First, the VAST majority of people who experience "clinical death", do NOT claim any kind of NDE!
Second, the details of the stories seem to be VERY consistent with the CULTURAL expectations of the person!!
It is blatantly obvious, these NDE's are purely dream state, and have NOTHING to do with literal death.
Near-death studies - Wikipedia
But, even MORE significant, the Scriptures clearly state dead people are NOT alive!

Wiki? Are you serious? Wiki is about as reliable as the scribbles on a public facility wall. Every page has [edit] links. Anybody can post, change, delete anything with no controls. Then you get in my face. I have found it very helpful to actually read a post before responding. You should try that sometime. I was not advocating NDE had you actually read my post you would know that. You and I will have to disagree with what the Bible says about the state of dead people. See that comment above about "cultural expectations," that also applies to your view on the state of the dead, etc. Unless you have personal experience anything you say is no more compelling than any other heterodox believer e.g. LDS. JW, SDA, WWCG, UU, OP, UPCI, INC etc.
ETA: That some kid claimed then retracted a story about an NDE is really irrelevant to any other report. False reports about various things are very common. The fact that someone may have made a false report about say a robbery, then retracts it or is found to be false, does not change the fact that there are many actual robberies.
.....About those theories you posted. The "theories" about what NDEs actually are, are almost as numerous as the NDE reports.

 

[Dartman]

Wiki? Are you serious? Wiki is about as reliable as the scribbles on a public facility wall.

The point in quoting the Wiki page is, the statistics. It is only one source. Do you have better statistics?

I have found it very helpful to actually read a post before responding. You should try that sometime. I was not advocating NDE had you actually read my post you would know that.

I read your post, you were the one that mentioned Colton Burpo.
CBN.com - Looking at Colton Burpo today you would never know that he almost died as a four year old in 2003. His father, Todd, wrote about the near death experience in the book, Heaven is for Real
Now, did YOU bring up NDE?? Yeah, you sure did.

You and I will have to disagree with what the Bible says about the state of dead people.

Not if we both agree to limit the information to EXCLUSIVELY what the Bible says. That will WAY simplify the study.
Or, to make it even simpler, lets limit the study to verses where Jehovah/YHVH is actually speaking! Would you agree to that?

 

[Hieronymus]

Hi folks,

I'm back after 11 months of forum absence, this is my first post since then.

First i want to thank Mark, also Chris and others for making such a clear case for Conditional Immortality.
It gives me peace of mind, because i'm one of those Christians who can not bare the idea of ECT, because most people i know and love (or at least care for) are 'not saved'.
And i would end up suffering ECT myself, because i can not love a God that would facilitate ECT.
It would imply God's Wrath is never satisfied, it would be infinitely disproportionate to the mere 75 years of the average sinner's life in the flesh, who perhaps would not trust in God because of the concept of ECT.
These are things i have really wrestled with and that made me completely lose all hope at times.
This may sound like a lack of humility on my part, where i place my moral views above God's Will, and maybe that's even the case to a certain extent.
But i just can't match it with God commanding to love our fellow humans, which entails emotional attachment to fellow humans and caring about their fate, be it on earth or beyond.
So that's my moral argument against ECT basically, it would not 'resonate' with "God is Love" and "For God loved the world so much, ...".

But maybe i'm just wimpy, because this raises a question too:

So your question is related to how being thrown into the lake of fire can allow for different amounts of punishment for different people if people are burned upon entering.

Great question!

I do believe that some aspect punishment will be proportional to sin in some way and thus not be identical to all. I admit I do not understand the details of how this will work. I don't think the Bible gives those details. However, I can give two possibilities which work with annihilationism:

Any conscious suffering might take place before the unrighteous are cast into the lake of fire.

and/or

Although they are burned to ashes in the lake of fire, this might not happen in an instant. Some might remain conscious longer than others.

Okay, so God must be very angry then, at some of his creatures.
But the only purpose the torment for the wicked would serve is to satisfy God's Wrath.
I mean, the wicked will learn nothing of it, will not be taught a lesson, because they will be annihilated in the end.
So i can't see the point in conscious punishment at all actually, other that satisfaction of God's Wrath.
The Gift is Life. >> No Gift = no Life >> No Life = Death = Cessation of existence.
Life is a Gift because we're all sinners and the wages of sin is death.
So by default, as sinners, we die for ever.

Now i can imagine God will punish the wicked to make them "see" how they were wrong, like a father chastising his impertinent children, so that they acknowledge Him as their Father and realise they were wrong and were doing wrong.
Wouldn't that be the only 'real' purpose of torment for the unsaved?

Bare in mind too that when the unsaved are described in Scripture, they are horrible evildoers, like murderers and basically without conscience.
Most people i know just try to be good and try to be happy and often fail at both, but i don't think they're "wicked".
So i hope i can take Revelations 7:9 quite literally
"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands."
That's a LOT of people !
And EVERY knee shall bow before the Lord.
And remember how Jesus rebuked the man that said: "I guess only a small number will be saved."
In all it seems to me God's objective is to save as many people as possible, maybe everyone except who really really don't want to be saved? (Am i allowed to hope that?)
But some will be big, and some will be small in the Kingdom of God.

Anyway, some of my thoughts on the matter.
Good to be back here.

J.

 

[ClementofA]

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).


-------------------------------



https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

Love Wins Because God Is love
Love Wins Because God Is Love… | For Whom nothing is impossible…Love NEVER Fails!


Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[Der Alte]

The point in quoting the Wiki page is, the statistics. It is only one source. Do you have better statistics?

Every page at Wiki has [edit] links. Anybody can post, change or delete anything without review or control. Even statistics.

I read your post, you were the one that mentioned Colton Burpo. Now, did YOU bring up NDE?? Yeah, you sure did.

Yes I did but I said nothing about accepting everything written about NDE. Other than those stories we have no credible, verifiable evidence about what happens to humans after death. So we have no basis to say certain Bible passage about what happens after death are wrong.

Not if we both agree to limit the information to EXCLUSIVELY what the Bible says. That will WAY simplify the study.

Said the guy who quoted from Wiki.

Or, to make it even simpler, lets limit the study to verses where Jehovah/YHVH is actually speaking! Would you agree to that?

I already did and you blew then off as figurative. As I said before, maybe not in this thread, lots of folks when scripture as written contradicts their assumptions/presuppositions, no problem, they just blow them off as SPAM-fig. Symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative, anything but literal. There is an old maxim about Bible translation, if the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to look for any other sense. For example, we know that Jesus was not literally a door, a loaf of bead or a lamp, so those statements were figurative.

 

[Dartman]

Every page at Wiki has [edit] links. Anybody can post, change or delete anything without review or control. Even statistics.

You are welcome to provide your own statistics, quote the source like I did, and we can discuss.

Yes I did but I said nothing about accepting everything written about NDE. Other than those stories we have no credible, verifiable evidence about what happens to humans after death. So we have no basis to say certain Bible passage about what happens after death are wrong.

So Jehovah's statements are "no credible, verifiable evidence"??? He said YOU will return to dust. He said "YOU will die, and NOT LIVE". And these were statements made to individuals, NOT visions or prophetic passages.

Not if we both agree to limit the information to EXCLUSIVELY what the Bible says. That will WAY simplify the study.

Said the guy who quoted from Wiki.

To the guy who sited Colton Burpo.
NOW are you ready to return to my suggestion: "we both agree to limit the information to EXCLUSIVELY what the Bible says "?

I already did and you blew then off as figurative.

Yes, the Bible Student MUST be able to distinguish. When the text STATES it is a prophecy, it's a good indication some figurative language is going to follow. The examples you provided are clearly figurative, AND you are attempting to CONTRADICT plain, simple, direct statements of Scripture WITH those figurative passages.

 

[Der Alte]

You are welcome to provide your own statistics, quote the source like I did, and we can discuss.
So Jehovah's statements are "no credible, verifiable evidence"??? He said YOU will return to dust. He said "YOU will die, and NOT LIVE". And these were statements made to individuals, NOT visions or prophetic passages.

I prefer to have a discussion with someone who does not deliberately misrepresent what I said.
Right! Said to an individual.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.​

To the guy who sited Colton Burpo.
NOW are you ready to return to my suggestion: "we both agree to limit the information to EXCLUSIVELY what the Bible says "?
Yes, the Bible Student MUST be able to distinguish. When the text STATES it is a prophecy, it's a good indication some figurative language is going to follow. The examples you provided are clearly figurative, AND you are attempting to CONTRADICT plain, simple, direct statements of Scripture WITH those figurative passages

Wrong! Isaiah 14:9-11 is not prophecy. Luke 16:19-32 is not prophecy. It has been my experience that when scripture, as written, contradicts the teachings of heterodox religious groups they dismiss it as figurative. There is an old maxim when interpreting scripture, "If the plain sense makes good sense then it is nonsense to look for any other sense."
The only thing I am contradicting are false teachings.

 

[Dartman]

I prefer to have a discussion with someone who does not deliberately misrepresent what I said.

This is known as a "straw man" argument. You are deliberately misrepresenting what I said.... and attacking that fictitious position.

Right! Said to an individual.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.​

We KNOW God "gave" the breath of life. THAT'S what "spirit' means in this context. (Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.)​

Wrong! Isaiah 14:9-11 is not prophecy.

Of course it is, AND it starts in verse 4 that thou shalt take up this parable against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! And, it includes fir trees rejoicing!!

Luke 16:19-32 is not prophecy.

Actually, it is. It is a parable that foretold the "kingdom of God" being taken from Israel, and the Gospel of the kingdom going to the Gentiles.

 

[Der Alte]

This is known as a "straw man" argument. You are deliberately misrepresenting what I said.... and attacking that fictitious position.

Wrong! Where did I ever say or imply,."'Jehovah's statements are 'no credible, verifiable evidence'"?

We KNOW God "gave" the breath of life. THAT'S what "spirit' means in this context. (

Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.)

Genesis 6:3
(3) And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Deuteronomy 2:30
(30) But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.
1 Samuel 1:15
(15) And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD.
2 Kings 2:15
(15) And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.
1 Chronicles 5:26
(26) And the God of Israel stirred up the spirit of Pul king of Assyria, and the spirit of Tilgathpilneser king of Assyria, and he carried them away, even the Reubenites, and the Gadites, and the half tribe of Manasseh, and brought them unto Halah, and Habor, and Hara, and to the river Gozan, unto this day.​

Of course it is, AND it starts in verse 4 that thou shalt take up this parable against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! And, it includes fir trees rejoicing!!

I have always found it to be very helpful to actually read a post before replying. I answered this objection there. I'm disinclined to repeat it here.

Actually, it is. It is a parable that foretold the "kingdom of God" being taken from Israel, and the Gospel of the kingdom going to the Gentiles.

That is one theory. Google rich man and Lazarus and you will see many theories. Why should I accept this theory over any of the others?

 

[Shempster]

A couple perspectives I have heard of:
1. There will be 1,000 years of time in the future where the saints rule but the wicked will remain "asleep" Dead, really. Then after the thousand years is up they will revived and judged based on their works.
2. (opposing ECT) the belief in ECT by the organized church IS the "falling away" that Paul warned about. Some say that God's very nature and character have been smeared and corrupted in the last 1600 years.

I'm not saying either of these are true. They are just perspectives on the matter.

 

[Dartman]

Wrong! Where did I ever say or imply,."'Jehovah's statements are 'no credible, verifiable evidence'"?

When you said this;
Der Alter Post # 526
Yes I did but I said nothing about accepting everything written about NDE. Other than those stories we have no credible, verifiable evidence about what happens to humans after death. So we have no basis to say certain Bible passage about what happens after death are wrong.

Genesis 6:3
(3) And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Deuteronomy 2:30
(30) But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.
1 Samuel 1:15
(15) And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD.
2 Kings 2:15
(15) And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.
1 Chronicles 5:26
(26) And the God of Israel stirred up the spirit of Pul king of Assyria, and the spirit of Tilgathpilneser king of Assyria, and he carried them away, even the Reubenites, and the Gadites, and the half tribe of Manasseh, and brought them unto Halah, and Habor, and Hara, and to the river Gozan, unto this day.​

Of course. You have picked a few of the MANY passages that discuss the most common definition of "spirit" in the Scriptures; a rational mind.

God's spirit is God's mind, and the power produced by His mind. Your spirit, and my spirit, are our respective mentalities. The believer must transform their spirit to match God's spirit, which is worshipping him "in spirit, and in truth". Like I said, this is the MOST common Scriptural definition of "spirit".

However, there are a NUMBER of Scriptures that use "spirit" to mean "breath;

Job 27:3 For my life is yet whole in me, And the spirit of God is in my nostrils
Job 33:4 The spirit of God hath made me, And the breath of the Almighty giveth me life.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Eccl 12:7 and the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.
Luke 23:46 And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.” Having said this, He breathed His last.
James 2:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

 

[Der Alte]

When you said this;
Der Alter Post # 526
Yes I did but I said nothing about accepting everything written about NDE. Other than those stories we have no credible, verifiable evidence about what happens to humans after death. So we have no basis to say certain Bible passage about what happens after death are wrong.

Anyone with a minimum of common sense would know I did not include scripture. You evidently have not been reading my posts because I have been quoting scripture all along. I inadvertently omitted the word "historical." What I usually write and intended here is "Other than those stories we have no credible, verifiable, historical evidence about what happens to humans after death."

Of course. You have picked a few of the MANY passages that discuss the most common definition of "spirit" in the Scriptures; a rational mind.

Of course I quoted scripture which shows you cannot merely assume that "breath of life" is meant when ruach is mentioned.

God's spirit is God's mind, and the power produced by His mind. Your spirit, and my spirit, are our respective mentalities. The believer must transform their spirit to match God's spirit, which is worshipping him "in spirit, and in truth". Like I said, this is the MOST common Scriptural definition of "spirit".

Which contradicts your previous post where you insisted that "ruach" means "breath of life."

However, there are a NUMBER of Scriptures that use "spirit" to mean "breath;

Yes but I already addressed this.

 

[Dartman]

Anyone with a minimum of common sense would know I did not include scripture. You evidently have not been reading my posts because I have been quoting scripture all along. I inadvertently omitted the word "historical." What I usually write and intended here is "Other than those stories we have no credible, verifiable, historical evidence about what happens to humans after death."

Hogwash.
1) There have been BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of historical, observable, repeatable examples of precisely what happens to ALL lifeforms after death, including humans, and that evidence supports Solomon's observations from about 3,000 years ago .. there is NO difference between men and animals, the exact same thing happens to all, IN SPITE of what the pagans surrounding Solomon claimed, that "the spirits" did something different! Eccl 3:18-21
2) EVERY example of Scientific research proves EXACTLY what Jehovah states plainly in Scripture; the dead turn back into dust, and they are entirely NOT ALIVE!!
3) BY CONTRAST .... The NDE record is all over the map, the experiences vary from culture to culture, and is only experienced by a small fraction of the population that experiences "clinical death". There is NOTHING "credible" about them!!

Of course I quoted scripture which shows you cannot merely assume that "breath of life" is meant when ruach is mentioned.

Which contradicts your previous post where you insisted that "ruach" means "breath of life."

I don't think you are reading my posts closely enough. "Spirit" has more than one meaning in the Scriptures.
1) The primary meaning (most common) is "a rational mind".
2) The secondary meaning is "breath".
3) The tertiary meaning is "wind" or "air".
4) The pagan superstitions, including ghosts.

 

[Der Alte]

Hogwash.
1) There have been BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of historical, observable, repeatable examples of precisely what happens to ALL lifeforms after death, including humans, and that evidence supports Solomon's observations from about 3,000 years ago .. there is NO difference between men and animals, the exact same thing happens to all, IN SPITE of what the pagans surrounding Solomon claimed, that "the spirits" did something different! Eccl 3:18-21
2) EVERY example of Scientific research proves EXACTLY what Jehovah states plainly in Scripture; the dead turn back into dust, and they are entirely NOT ALIVE!!
3) BY CONTRAST .... The NDE record is all over the map, the experiences vary from culture to culture, and is only experienced by a small fraction of the population that experiences "clinical death". There is NOTHING "credible" about them!!

Thank you for this, but if I want WTBS teaching on this I can consult my library CD, altho it is a few years old, or buy a copy of the Watchtower or Awake

I don't think you are reading my posts closely enough. "Spirit" has more than one meaning in the Scriptures.
1) The primary meaning (most common) is "a rational mind".
2) The secondary meaning is "breath".
3) The tertiary meaning is "wind" or "air".
4) The pagan superstitions, including ghosts.

My point was ruach does not always mean "breath."

 

[Dartman]

Thank you for this, but if I want WTBS teaching on this I can consult my library CD, altho it is a few years old, or buy a copy of the Watchtower or Awake

They happen to understand the truth about death. They aren't the only ones.
Judaism[edit]
Although in the Book of Genesis Jacob mentions he would descend into the Sheol where he thought his son Joseph already was and the Witch of Endor summons the ghost of the deceased prophet Samuel at the behest of King Saul, modern scholars believe the concept of an immortal soul going to bliss or torment after death entered mainstream Judaism after the exile[60] and existed throughout the Second Temple era, though both ‘soul sleep’ and ‘soul death’, were also held.[61][62][63]

Some authorities within Conservative Judaism, notably Neil Gillman, also support the notion that the souls of the dead are unconscious until the Resurrection.[75]


Christian views[edit]
Second to eighth centuries[edit]
Though affirming the immortality of the soul, the second century apologist Athenagoras of Athens taught that souls sleep dreamlessly between death and resurrection: "[T]hose who are dead and those who sleep are subject to similar states, as regards at least the stillness and the absence of all sense of the present or the past, or rather of existence itself and their own life."[78]

However, the most well known case of mortalism in the early church is that recorded by Eusebius of Caesarea:

The Dissension of the Arabians. About the same time others arose in Arabia, putting forward a doctrine foreign to the truth. They said that during the present time the human soul dies and perishes with the body, but that at the time of the resurrection they will be renewed together. And at that time also a synod of considerable size assembled, and Origen, being again invited there, spoke publicly on the question with such effect that the opinions of those who had formerly fallen were changed.

— Ecclesiastical History VI,37
Christian mortalism - Wikipedia

My point was ruach does not always mean "breath."

Of course not.

 

[Der Alte]

They happen to understand the truth about death. They aren't the only ones.
Judaism[edit]
Although in the Book of Genesis Jacob mentions he would descend into the Sheol where he thought his son Joseph already was and the Witch of Endor summons the ghost of the deceased prophet Samuel at the behest of King Saul, modern scholars believe the concept of an immortal soul going to bliss or torment after death entered mainstream Judaism after the exile[60] and existed throughout the Second Temple era, though both ‘soul sleep’ and ‘soul death’, were also held.[61][62][63]
Some authorities within Conservative Judaism, notably Neil Gillman, also support the notion that the souls of the dead are unconscious until the Resurrection.[75]
Christian views[edit]
Second to eighth centuries[edit]
Though affirming the immortality of the soul, the second century apologist Athenagoras of Athens taught that souls sleep dreamlessly between death and resurrection: "[T]hose who are dead and those who sleep are subject to similar states, as regards at least the stillness and the absence of all sense of the present or the past, or rather of existence itself and their own life."[78]
However, the most well known case of mortalism in the early church is that recorded by Eusebius of Caesarea:
The Dissension of the Arabians. About the same time others arose in Arabia, putting forward a doctrine foreign to the truth. They said that during the present time the human soul dies and perishes with the body, but that at the time of the resurrection they will be renewed together. And at that time also a synod of considerable size assembled, and Origen, being again invited there, spoke publicly on the question with such effect that the opinions of those who had formerly fallen were changed.
— Ecclesiastical History VI,37
Christian mortalism - Wikipedia
Of course not.

Once again I am not interested in anything the WTBS says. "Wiki? You can't be serious. Note, even as you have quoted, every page has [edit] links. Anybody can change, add, delete anything they want to without review or controls. Please see the credible, verifiable, historical evidence I provided from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, in my post#79, this thread. It will take more than anonymous articles from wiki and someone saying something like "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" to refute the evidence I have provided.

 

[Dartman]

Once again I am not interested in anything the WTBS says. "Wiki? You can't be serious. Note, even as you have quoted, every page has [edit] links. Anybody can change, add, delete anything they want to without review or controls. Please see the credible, verifiable, historical evidence I provided from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, in my post#79, this thread. It will take more than anonymous articles from wiki and someone saying something like "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" to refute the evidence I have provided.

The Scriptures destroy your "evidence". Jesus very clearly, and repeatedly, contradicted the rubbish in the Talmud.
Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men
Matthew 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

 

[Der Alte]

The Scriptures destroy your "evidence". Jesus very clearly, and repeatedly, contradicted the rubbish in the Talmud.
Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men
Matthew 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Nonsense! Anybody can prove almost anything by quoting selective scripture out-of-context.

Matthew 23:2-3
(2) Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
(3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.​

Please show me where anything Jesus taught about the eternal fate of the unrighteous specifically contradicted or criticized the Jewish teachings of His day? See e.g. my post# 79 this thread.

 

[SBC]

Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

Ignoring mans words = ie annihilation, conscious, Universalism

Division is Gods ultimate GOAL for an end of THIS current world -

Dividing is in the process that has always occurred between man and God -

Jesus, ON EARTH, teaching, MADE the Goal for the end RESULT clear -

Luke 12 [51] Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth?
I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

The DIVISION, is every day occurring, as individual men,
CHOOSE to stand WITH the Word of God, or CHOOSE to stand AGAINST the Word of God.

Matt 12 [30] He that is not with me is against me;

Spirits NEVER DIE. They FOREVER have LIFE from God in them.
Living Souls, (of the unfaithful) WILL have Gods LIFE departed from their soul.
ALL Body's WILL, have their LIFE (which is BLOOD), departed from their Body.

The Heavenly host, ie Angels, were CREATED AS SPIRITS, thus they can NEVER DIE, or be Destroyed.
....And Angels FATE is dependent upon THEIR CHOICE;
....Standing WITH God, they forever remain WITH God.
....Standing AGAINST God, they forever remain SEPARATED FROM God, FATE; ie Lake of Fire forever.

Mankind -
....Standing WITH God, soul restored, ie saved; spirit quickened, ie born again, body dead in Christ.
........ie a man thus made WHOLE, and acceptable to be WITH God forever.
..........bodily alive - body, soul, spirit; Gods Spirit with him.
..........bodily dead - body goes to grave.
..........living soul and living spirit go to God....waits for body to be raised and changed anew.

Mankind -
....Standing AGAINST God, soul remains corrupt, ie unsaved; spirit remains natural, ie Not born again,
.......body remains corrupt, ie not anew.
.......still living on earth.
body AGAINST God, Living soul AGAINST God, NO born again spirit given them.


Mankind AGAINST God....
.......bodily dead - body goes to grave.
.......living soul - goes to hell, separated from earths beauty/provisions, separated from God = torment.
.......no born again spirit given them, thus they have NO eternal living spirit.
.......living soul, awaits judgement day.
.......their living soul is in hell FROM the day of their physical death, whatever era, PLUS 1,000 years.
.......Judgement follows the 1,000 years mark.

.......Judgement Day -
.......Their corrupt body's are raised from the earthen grave, sent to Hell.
.......Their corrupt living souls are imparted into their corrupt body's.
.......Life resumes in their body.
.......In Hell, they stand before the JUDGE, ie the Son of Man, ie Jesus.
......They SEE, and NOW BELIEVE.
......They BOW, Worship Jesus.
......The BOOK of LIFE is opened.
......Their NAME does NOT APPEAR as having BEEN (bodily) forgiven or (living soul) saved.
...... Sentence commences.
...... Life from God (ie the Living soul), is departed out of their body.
...... Their body is NOW, DEAD, knows nothing.
...... The LIFE from God (IN their Living soul), is departed out of their soul, and returns to God.
...... Their soul is NOW, VOID of LIFE, knows nothing.
...... Their BODY and SOUL, VOID of Life, is thrown into the Lake of Fire.
...... Their BODY and SOUL, is DESTROYED, forever separated from God, forever mankind has no memory of them.

Matt 10
[28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:
but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

SOME MEN - ALIVE today, in Standing Against God -
some complain - boo hoo, not fair to be tormented in hell...
some say - they believe "eternal" torment in hell is real, God is mean, so they do not believe God is good.
some say - who cares, they bodily die, no problem, that's the end for them...
some say - God should MAKE them believe, or otherwise, He doesn't love them...
some say - IF God were real, He would MAKE everyone Believe.

Belief is a Choice the individual has to make -
Faith is a gift from God for those who choose to trust to believe.

Men who choose to NOT STAND WITH God, shall be Bodily and Soul VOID of Life, and DESTROYED.

God Bless,
SBC