Is belief that Jesus is YHWH necessary for salvation?

[Baby Cottontail]

I guess if I had died a year ago I would have gone to hell. [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], I might be on my way to hell now. So, why even bother?

Stop it right now. No one is saying they know for sure. What is important right now is that you are saved. Don't dwell on what might have been. Your salvation is secure in Jesus Christ if you believe.

It sounds like you might have some serious faith questions that would be better addressed by talking with a pastor one on one so that they can assure you.

Do you trust in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior? Do you believe that He died for your sins? Do you believe that He was bodily resurrected?

You've already answered yes to that in another thread.

I am going to pray for you because it sounds like you could use some comforting from the Holy Spirit.

I did not start this topic to condemn you or anyone else!!!!

 

[AarontheStudent]

What about believing that Jesus is Lord?

Or do you think any belief in Jesus is necessary for salvation at all?

We must call on Jesus as our Lord and Savior to free us from our sins.

As far as accepting his divinity, his earliest disciples would have had a much more primitive Christology than we do today. We might even have called them heretics. (Some of Paul's writings suggest he may even have fell into the adoptionist camp, in fact.) So I don't think that much is necessary.

 

[Hillsage]

Again, this wasn't addressed to me -- but I feel I need to correct a misunderstanding, since my thinking is being discussed here.

I am not a sacred names person, nor am I a Oneness Pentecostal. The Son is Jesus. A person does not need baptize in the name of Jesus in order for baptism to be effective. I am perfectly fine with the trinitarian formula for baptism, and I actually would prefer the trinitarian formula because that is part of Jesus' instructions in Matthew 28.

And, as far as I'm concerned, baptism is not a requirement for salvation. So -- the particular names/words said at baptism are not at issue at all.

But since, as you believe, Jesus instructions on how to baptize correctly was the trinitarian formula, then why didn't the disciples ever do it 'that way'? There are only 4 times that baptism is performed and not once did they do so "in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost." Strange indeed.

ACT 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

ACT 8:12,16 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women…:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus).

ACT 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

ACT 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Time for bed for me. You all play nice now.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

So what "I AM", 'name' is Jesus claiming when He said "before Abraham was I AM"? I ask, since scripture says Abraham never knew the name of JEHOVAH.

EXO 6:2 And God (ELOHIM) spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD (JEHOVAH): 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God (EL) Almighty (SHADDAI), but by my name JEHOVAH (JEHOVAH) was I not known to them.

It looks to me like the "I AM" name, preceding Jehovah was "EL SHADDAI". But that's a confusing verse to most I'd say. Especially since translators never translated LORD and JEHOVAH consistently within that very verse.

I have not used the name Jehovah in this thread. Yes, Jehovah is sometimes used in place of YHWH in some Bible translations. Some groups prefer to use the name Jehovah.

Yes, the Bible translation that is automatically linked on this site uses "Jehovah." I don't know too much about that translation. I do know that whenever LORD appears in the OT in my NASB, NIV, or NRSV Bibles that it consistently shows that that is where YHWH appears in the original. How do I know? Because that's what the preface to each of these translations says.

Jesus is using the "I AM" from Exodus 3 that God used to identify Himself to Moses.

It doesn't matter whether or not Abraham knew God by His name "I AM." He's still the same God. That doesn't change. Knowing someone's name doesn't affect who they are. God is the "I AM that I AM." That's who He is.

We can call Him the "I AM," Jehovah, Yahweh, YHWH, the Deity, the triune God, God, the LORD, the Lord, etc. None of that changes who He is. He's the same God no matter what you call Him. That's why I don't believe in the Sacred Name movements.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Everyone, I'm going to head off to bed. Feel free to discuss and respond while I'm gone. I will respond to additional posts tomorrow. Good night everyone, and thanks for taking part in the discussion so far Everyone's contribution is valued!!!

 

[Anguspure]

This topic came up in another thread, and I am interested in people's thoughts on this.

I am thinking that it definitely could be an issue of salvation because of the following verses:
John 8:24 (NASB)
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

This is a few verses before John 8:58 (NASB):
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

I suppose that Jesus could either be saying "unless you believe I am the Messiah," or "unless you believe I AM" (that He is YHWH.) I also don't know whether or not Jesus was thinking about the future -- where there might be some people who believed that He was the Messiah, but denied His deity.

And there is the question of -- if you do not believe that Jesus is YHWH, then do you really believe in Jesus? And do you really believe that He is Lord?

I realize that no one can for sure answer these questions except for God. Only God knows the salvation of each person.

Then there is Romans 10:8-13 (NASB):
But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" -- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed."

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

The second quote that Paul used is from Joel 2:32, which says in the NASB:
"And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the LORD has said, even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Since LORD = YHWH in the OT, it seems that he is calling Jesus YHWH here.

Maybe Paul was not thinking that there might be people who believed in Jesus, but denied that He was YHWH. Or maybe he considered belief that Jesus was YHWH to be necessary for salvation.

What do you think?

Perhaps its around the other way, we expect people to learn who Jesus is but Jesus himself revealed something else:
But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

 

[Devin P]

Thank you for responding.

We've got a theological issue here that needs to be settled first, I haven't said or tried to suggest anywhere in this thread that Jesus is the Father. You're the first to suggest that in this thread.

Let's settle this issue now before we get any farther.

The Son is not the Father. The Father is not the Son.

However, both the Father and the Son are YHWH.

Yes, the Father and Son have the same doctrine. They are the same God.

Jesus is the Father and the Father is the Son.

Exodus 3:14 - And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8:58 - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

They're the same. They are different, but the same. Jesus is God, He died to free us from the law of the adulterous bride. Otherwise there's no point in Him dying for us if He wasn't. We weren't in bondage to the law itself, but to the curse of the law for being unfaithful. We were His bride, and were unfaithful, and so He bought us back.

 

[DamianWarS]

Since LORD = YHWH in the OT, it seems that he is calling Jesus YHWH here.

this is a translation. the word translated as "LORD" is Yahweh so Joel makes no such comparison. When you see LORD in all caps it is translated from Yahweh.

 

[Saved.By.Grace]

Thank you so much for looking at the Greek here.

Would you be willing to look at the Greek version of the OT and let me know how a few other passages are translated that use "I AM" in the Bible translation. I am curious whether or not the "He" is in the Greek, or if it appears exactly as it does in John 8:24.

Yes, I can do this. Do you have any verses in mind?

 

[Radagast]

this is a translation. the word translated as "LORD" is Yahweh so Joel makes no such comparison. When you see LORD in all caps it is translated from Yahweh.

The original Joel (in Hebrew) uses YHWH (rendered "LORD" in many English Bibles).

Paul is quoting the Greek Old Testament (the Septuagint) which uses kurios both for "lord" and to translate "YHWH." This allows Paul to say “Jesus is Lord” (Romans 10:9), and just a few verses later quote Joel “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” In Greek, the same word kurios is used both times, and Paul is clearly applying the Joel quote to Jesus. But because the Joel quote is about YHWH, and Paul applies it to Jesus, the implication is that Jesus is YHWH.

 

[Radagast]

Thank you so much for looking at the Greek here.

Would you be willing to look at the Greek version of the OT and let me know how a few other passages are translated that use "I AM" in the Bible translation. I am curious whether or not the "He" is in the Greek, or if it appears exactly as it does in John 8:24.

"He" is not in the Greek for John 8:24 and similar passages. What there is, is an emphatic form of "I am" (ego eimi) which is difficult to translate exactly into English. The Greek eimi on its own means "I am," and ego means "I." Together, ego eimi is an emphatic form of "I am."

John 8:24: “I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am (ego eimi), you will indeed die in your sins.”

John 4:26: Jesus said to her, “I am (ego eimi), who is speaking to you.”

John 8:58: Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am (ego eimi).”

In the Greek Old Testament, we have Exodus 3:14: God said to Moses, “I am (ego eimi) The Being (Ho Ōn). This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘The Being (Ho Ōn) has sent me to you.’”

And Isaiah 41:4: Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the Lord, the first, and with the last; I am (ego eimi).

And Isaiah 52:6: Therefore my people shall know my name. Therefore in that day they shall know that I am (ego eimi) the one speaking; here am I.

And many other passages!

The Jews of Jesus' time certainly understood his echoing of the Old Testament ego eimi as a claim to divinity; that is why they tried to stone him (John 8:59).

 

[Saved.By.Grace]

The original Joel (in Hebrew) uses YHWH (rendered "LORD" in many English Bibles).

Paul is quoting the Greek Old Testament (the Septuagint) which uses kurios both for "lord" and to translate "YHWH." This allows Paul to say “Jesus is Lord” (Romans 10:9), and just a few verses later quote Joel “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” In Greek, the same word kurios is used both times, and Paul is clearly applying the Joel quote to Jesus. But because the Joel quote is about YHWH, and Paul applies it to Jesus, the implication is that Jesus is YHWH.

Who says that Paul was quoting here from the LXX? The fact of the matter is, that Paul does not simply "imply" that Jesus Christ is YHWH by applying Joel's Prophecy to Jesus Christ, but stating matter-of-fact, that this is so. Paul would have had the Hebrew Old Testament at had, and quoted directly from this. The LXX reading "κύριος" can be argued against by some, that it has a "lower meaning", which it does, since it is also used for "lord" or "sir", or "master", etc. The Hebrew "adony" is the other word for "Lord", which is used in Psalm 110:1, "YHWH said to Adony...".

 

[Saved.By.Grace]

"He" is not in the Greek for John 8:24 and similar passages. What there is, is an emphatic form of "I am" (ego eimi) which is difficult to translate exactly into English.

In the Greek Old Testament, we have Exodus 3:14: God said to Moses, “I am (ego eimi) The Being (Ho Ōn). This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘The Being (Ho Ōn) has sent me to you.’”

I am not sure what "difficulty" you are here referring to? The Greek "ἐγὼ εἰμί" is very simply, "I AM", that is, "I am the ever present, existent One", which is well contrasted in John 8:58, when Jesus says of Abraham, "γενέσθαι", (came into existence). The Hebrew YHWH has it root meaning in God's Name in Exodus 3:14, "I AM".

 

[DamianWarS]

The original Joel (in Hebrew) uses YHWH (rendered "LORD" in many English Bibles).

Paul is quoting the Greek Old Testament (the Septuagint) which uses kurios both for "lord" and to translate "YHWH." This allows Paul to say “Jesus is Lord” (Romans 10:9), and just a few verses later quote Joel “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” In Greek, the same word kurios is used both times, and Paul is clearly applying the Joel quote to Jesus. But because the Joel quote is about YHWH, and Paul applies it to Jesus, the implication is that Jesus is YHWH.

The Joel passage is indeed what Paul was quoting and probably from the Septuagint as you indicated (although not exact) but it's not the word kurios that makes the most compelling connection to Jesus but that it is a prophetic verse for Jesus.

YHWH is a word, like all hebrew words they have meaning. The meaning of the word "YHWH" is Yihweh which means "he is" and is another form of hayah or "I am" which is God's response to Moses of what his name is. The is not a name at all it is a state of being, self describing as the all existent one. Jesus is the the Word incarnate and can be described as the great I AM but also describes the entire God head and it's use should not assume uniquely the 2nd person of the trinity.

 

[Saved.By.Grace]

The Joel passage is indeed what Paul was quoting and probably from the Septuagint as you indicated (although not exact) but it's not the word kurios that makes the most compelling connection to Jesus but that it is a prophetic verse for Jesus.

YHWH is a word, like all hebrew words they have meaning. The meaning of the word "YHWH" is Yihweh which means "he is" and is another form of hayah or "I am" which is God's response to Moses of what his name is. The is not a name at all it is a state of being, self describing as the all existent one. Jesus is the the Word incarnate and can be described as the great I AM but also describes the entire God head and it's use should not assume uniquely the 2nd person of the trinity.

can you please clarify on what basis you suppose the quote is from the LXX? I don't see this in the Greek text of Acts and Joel? You are right that YHWH is more than The Name of God as it describes His very Nature, and is used for the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[Radagast]

The Joel passage is indeed what Paul was quoting and probably from the Septuagint as you indicated (although not exact)

Actually, Paul is quoting the Septuagint exact to the letter:

Joel 2:32 (Septuagint): ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα Κυρίου, σωθήσεται

Romans 10:13: ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα Κυρίου, σωθήσεται

but it's not the word kurios that makes the most compelling connection to Jesus but that it is a prophetic verse for Jesus.

Well, it's the link between the different uses of kurios that show us that the verse is being applied to Jesus.

YHWH is a word, like all hebrew words they have meaning. The meaning of the word "YHWH" is Yihweh

YHWH is God's personal name in the Old Testament. The exact meaning is extensively debated.

 

[Radagast]

I am not sure what "difficulty" you are here referring to? The Greek "ἐγὼ εἰμί" is very simply, "I AM", that is, "I am the ever present, existent One", which is well contrasted in John 8:58, when Jesus says of Abraham, "γενέσθαι", (came into existence). The Hebrew YHWH has it root meaning in God's Name in Exodus 3:14, "I AM".

The Greek εἰμί means "I am." The Greek ἐγὼ εἰμί is an emphatic form of "I am." Some translations turn it into "I am he," but that doesn't quite capture the meaning.

 

[Saved.By.Grace]

Actually, Paul is quoting the Septuagint exact to the letter:

Joel 2:32 (Septuagint): ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα Κυρίου, σωθήσεται

Romans 10:13: ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα Κυρίου, σωθήσεται



Well, it's the link between the different uses of kurios that show us that the verse is being applied to Jesus.



YHWH is God's personal name in the Old Testament. The exact meaning is extensively debated.

Joel 3:5 (LXX), "πᾶς, ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα Κυρίου, σωθήσεται·"

Romans 10:13, "Πᾶς γὰρ ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου, σωθήσεται."

the LXX is very faithful to the Hebrew text in the majority of places, and also represents an older Hebrew textual reading in many places, and closer to the DSS than the MT

 

[DamianWarS]

can you please clarify on what basis you suppose the quote is from the LXX? I don't see this in the Greek text of Acts and Joel? You are right that YHWH is more than The Name of God as it describes His very Nature, and is used for the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:13
Πᾶς γὰρ ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα Κυρίου σωθήσεται

Septuagint Joel 2:32
καὶ ἔσται πᾶς ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου σωθήσεται

It's not exact but the key points turn more like a quote especially when comparing the verbs used for "call upon" and "will be saved"

to be more conclusive you would have to compare everyone of Paul's scripture quotes in Romans which is too exhaustive for me to take on right now. Even the chapter itself makes several scripture quotes and you could start there... it's just not something I'm interested in. The original was probably in greek so in the end whether by the septuagint or Paul's translation he uses kurios.

 

[Radagast]

can you please clarify on what basis you suppose the quote is from the LXX?

The fact that the wording is exactly the same?

Joel 2:32 (Septuagint -- actually Joel 3:5 in Septuagint verse numbering): ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα Κυρίου, σωθήσεται

Romans 10:13: ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα Κυρίου, σωθήσεται