Does the Holy Spirit work in the Church?

[bling]

I think the Holy Spirit works in individuals.

I agree also, so if there is one individual with the Holy Spirit in a congregation does that mean the Holy Spirit is working with that congregation?

 

[RDKirk]

Likewise He would not tell different groups different things.

Right?

Forgive me...

Well, He told Paul to go to Macedonia, but he had told Philip to go to Samaria.

 

[RDKirk]

I agree also, so if there is one individual with the Holy Spirit in a congregation does that mean the Holy Spirit is working with that congregation?

No, but that individual will be frustrated.

 

[Hidden In Him]

They are set in their belief that church is just having the songs, a bit of praise and worship led by a group up the front, a few church notices, an adult Bible study type of sermon, maybe an altar call to get a few people pushed over (I'm JOKING, so don't send me letters!), out the back for coffee and cookies, and all go home for lunch.

I wouldn't have a problem with the coffee and cookies, LoL. In fact, depending on the church and the day, I would consider that better than to be expected.

But I don't think I would be venturing too far of the OP to say that another reason why the Spirit is often not really at work in churches is because of the sermon. To me, everything about early church services was participational, from operating in the spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 14:29) to the teaching itself (1 Corinthians 14:26), with questions and answers and presumably with input allowed (1 Corinthians 14:35), just as when prophecies were going forth and revelations were being received, with some sitting and others rising to speak as the Spirit led, and with the Spirit arbitrating among their hearts when there were disagreements (Colossians 3:15-16).

Imho, the less the entire congregation is involved, the less the Spirit will be involved, because He intended for services to be conducted where the entire Body of Christ was playing a part (1 Corinthians 12:6-19), as the Spirit willed and directed.

 

[RDKirk]

I wouldn't have a problem with the coffee and cookies, LoL. In fact, depending on the church and the day, I would consider that better than to be expected.

But I don't think I would be venturing too far of the OP to say that another reason why the Spirit is often not really at work in churches is because of the sermon. To me, everything about early church services was participational, from operating in the spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 14:29) to the teaching itself (1 Corinthians 14:26), with questions and answers and presumably with input allowed (1 Corinthians 14:35), just as when prophecies were going forth and revelations were being received, with some sitting and others rising to speak as the Spirit led, and with the Spirit arbitrating among their hearts when there were disagreements (Colossians 3:15-16).

Imho, the less the entire congregation is involved, the less the Spirit will be involved, because He intended for services to be conducted where the entire Body of Christ was playing a part (1 Corinthians 12:6-19), as the Spirit willed and directed.

Something I realized only about 10 years ago was that even the sermon is supposed to be participational. Everything is supposed to be proven true by two or three witnesses, including the sermon.

This came from one pastor (and a young one at that) insisting on getting an "amen" from the congregation who explained why from 1 Corinthians 14. "If I say something that resounds in the Spirit in you, tell me!"

If the preaching is Spiritually valid, the Holy Spirit will confirm it among the membership, and the members who receive that validation have an obligation to witness to it. When the Spirit says within a member, "I told him to say that," then that member owes the congregation a witness. What happens in me is that the Spirit points out in my mind other places in scripture that support what the pastor has just said: "I said that over here and over here, too."

That's why the old-school pastors would make a point and then explicitly ask, "Can I get a witness?" If the members just shrugged, looked at each other, and said, "Nope, we got nothing," then the pastor (and the members) knew he was off track...and maybe he should sit down.

 

[Hidden In Him]

What happens in me is that the Spirit points out in my mind other places in scripture that support what the pastor has just said: "I said that over here and over here, too."

Exactly. This part right here, if followed out completely, leads to the Spirit guiding the entire message. I've done youth group services where certain members would begin chiming in with almost these exact words, adding verses and increasing insight, and it never failed to light things up. Suddenly the Spirit was bringing even more verses to my mind, and then more to someone else's... that's the way things should be, imo.

Now the problem comes when those who are not anointed clog up the works with some uninspired, self-absorbed question that has nothing to do with the massage and is out of line with what the Spirit is communicating. But this is where a good leader has to step in and insist that they stay on topic and save that question for later.

But yes. PLUS, this type of scenario forces a pastor or teacher to be truly hearing from God and inspired by the Spirit, because if he is not then he will not be receiving confirmation, and rather may in fact receive contradictions to what he is saying from the written word of God. But when no one can say anything, he can be so dry that no one gets ministered to week in a and week out, yet interrupting him is considered taboo.

And my position is, so what if a minister should stand corrected? No one should expect them to be flawless and always have the perfect answer every time. If he's a humble man, he will admit that he doesn't know absolutely everything. But I think the problem is that there are so many who are looking to trying to start their own following and ultimately their own church for money's sake, or vindictive about certain doctrines, that the whole process can get shut down because so many are being led by the evil one...

It's a mess nowadays. But it is definitely not the way church is supposed to be, imho. To just give in and let one man do all the talking is to concede defeat to the enemy. To think that only one man can be used of God during a teaching is an insult to the rest of the congregation (unless to a man they are all spiritual infants), and a shame.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Something I realized only about 10 years ago was that even the sermon is supposed to be participational. Everything is supposed to be proven true by two or three witnesses, including the sermon.

This came from one pastor (and a young one at that) insisting on getting an "amen" from the congregation who explained why from 1 Corinthians 14. "If I say something that resounds in the Spirit in you, tell me!"

If the preaching is Spiritually valid, the Holy Spirit will confirm it among the membership, and the members who receive that validation have an obligation to witness to it. When the Spirit says within a member, "I told him to say that," then that member owes the congregation a witness. What happens in me is that the Spirit points out in my mind other places in scripture that support what the pastor has just said: "I said that over here and over here, too."

That's why the old-school pastors would make a point and then explicitly ask, "Can I get a witness?" If the members just shrugged, looked at each other, and said, "Nope, we got nothing," then the pastor (and the members) knew he was off track...and maybe he should sit down.

This reminds me of a question posed to John Darby once (you can look him up if you don't know him). He was a very early advocate of an open meeting style in which a brother would stand up and preach as he felt led.

Darby was asked what he would do if someone got up and started preaching, but it was evident that he was not at all being led by the Holy Spirit. Darby's answer? "I would get up and walk out." He did this on various occasions.

 

[Hidden In Him]

This reminds me of a question posed to John Darby once (you can look him up if you don't know him). He was a very early advocate of an open meeting style in which a brother would stand up and preach as he felt led.

Darby was asked what he would do if someone got up and started preaching, but it was evident that he was not at all being led by the Holy Spirit. Darby's answer? "I would get up and walk out." He did this on various occasions.

That's one approach. I've read concerning the early days at Azusa Street that the congregation was so continually being given over to a Spirit of prayer and holiness that whenever a visiting preacher came in and tried to take charge over the meeting, everyone would all just continue to pray silently while he spoke. Eventually a spirit of conviction would overcome the man so terribly that he would sit back down and fall silent in humiliation, without anyone having had to say a word to him. The Spirit so dominated meetings that no one else could usurp the Lord's authority.

 

[Tolworth John]

The Church is the collection of all Christians. It is an invisible church made up of many different denominations. Different churches have different doctrines. Each claim the Holy Spirit has inspired them to the truth. Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit is of truth.

How can we all be inspired by the Holy Spirit and still disagree?

God is soverign, he can use what ever he wants to to challenge a non believer or a believer.
Spurgeon was converted by the inept preaching of a man who shouldn't havebeen preaching, but God used his ineptness to save one of the great preachers.

as the king of ninivah said ' Who Knows.....'
what God will do.

 

[toLiJC]

This seems like such a simple question and I think we would all say yes.

BUT, a big but. The Church is not each person's church. It is easy to say the Holy Spirit works in the church each has chosen or been born into, but what about the church you disagree with?

The Church is the collection of all Christians. It is an invisible church made up of many different denominations. Different churches have different doctrines. Each claim the Holy Spirit has inspired them to the truth. Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit is of truth. How can we all be inspired by the Holy Spirit and still disagree?

To those that argue their church has special access to the Holy Spirit, read Jesus' words.
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

The way that Jesus is with us in this world is through the Holy Spirit. Further scripture says Jesus is the head and shepherd of the whole body of believers.


I think my simple question is not so simple. Does any have a simple answer for it?

I don't know that I have a good answer for my dilemma, but I don't believe those that think they are special and have a better line to the Holy Spirit such that only they are always true.

My best hope is in the thought that being a Christian is more than what you know. There will not be a doctrine test when you get to heaven that we will be judged on. Scripture does say we will be judged for our actions though. So, maybe the answer lies in what we do over what we know. Maybe it is just not that important how much we argue over different doctrines. This is hard for me to accept, especially with the prophecies of false teachings and apostasy coming to the Church.

the true Holy Spirit works primarily in and through people that practice the faith right, for example, God saved many people through His Son Jesus and His true disciples about two millennia ago, while many clerics of the then jews' religion (i.e. mainly scribes and pharisees) were not capable of saving humans so perfectly

Blessings

 

[RDKirk]

God is soverign, he can use what ever he wants to to challenge a non believer or a believer.
Spurgeon was converted by the inept preaching of a man who shouldn't havebeen preaching, but God used his ineptness to save one of the great preachers.

as the king of ninivah said ' Who Knows.....'
what God will do.

There are a couple of "laws" in effect as an evangelist goes about his work:

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

We don't know who the "drawn" individuals of any crowd are--they don't even know who they are. But, in fact, the "target audience" is not everyone, but specifically the "drawn."

And if the evangelist speaks in the voice of Jesus--says what Jesus wants said in the way Jesus wants it said--the "drawn" will certainly respond.

This places a particular burden on the evangelist: He must be consistent to ask, to hear, and to obey in going where he's directed by the Holy Spirit and saying to that audience what he is directed by the Holy Spirit.

But this is something that should give an evangelist great confidence, because it means that when he goes where directed and speaks what is directed, there will be those who have already been prepared by the Holy Spirit to receive and respond to his gospel message. He will always have success.

I'd add, though, that "success" is not always measured in numbers.

I spoke to a missionary a number of years ago who told me about his own mission assignment in Polynesia where he had preached for several years and had reached only one family in all that time. He was recalled by his denomination as a failed missionary attempt.

Several years later, his denomination tried again with a different missionary. What they found was a large, vibrant congregation...with that man--the only one who had heeded the first missionary--as the pastor.

They realized that the original missionary's actual mission was to reach that one man...but it wasn't time wasted because that one man probably needed those years of discipleship.

 

[Tolworth John]

There are a couple of "laws" in effect as an evangelist goes about his work:

I wouldn't discribe them as laws, as they are how God works and we cannot put God in a box of our understanding.

 

[disciple1]

This seems like such a simple question and I think we would all say yes.

BUT, a big but. The Church is not each person's church. It is easy to say the Holy Spirit works in the church each has chosen or been born into, but what about the church you disagree with?

The Church is the collection of all Christians. It is an invisible church made up of many different denominations. Different churches have different doctrines. Each claim the Holy Spirit has inspired them to the truth. Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit is of truth. How can we all be inspired by the Holy Spirit and still disagree?

To those that argue their church has special access to the Holy Spirit, read Jesus' words.
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

The way that Jesus is with us in this world is through the Holy Spirit. Further scripture says Jesus is the head and shepherd of the whole body of believers.


I think my simple question is not so simple. Does any have a simple answer for it?

I don't know that I have a good answer for my dilemma, but I don't believe those that think they are special and have a better line to the Holy Spirit such that only they are always true.

My best hope is in the thought that being a Christian is more than what you know. There will not be a doctrine test when you get to heaven that we will be judged on. Scripture does say we will be judged for our actions though. So, maybe the answer lies in what we do over what we know. Maybe it is just not that important how much we argue over different doctrines. This is hard for me to accept, especially with the prophecies of false teachings and apostasy coming to the Church.

I like these verses, I don't think you can do it, unless you have the holy spirit.
Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

 

[RDKirk]

I wouldn't discribe them as laws, as they are how God works and we cannot put God in a box of our understanding.

I put "laws" in quotes, but I'm considering them as I'd consider a physical law like a law of gravitational acceleration: "This is how God set up things to work."

My point is that evangelism is not a hit or miss situation. To put it in sales terms, Jesus does not call evangelists to make "cold calls." There are people who are being "drawn." They are spiritually identified--Jesus knows who they are.

Those people are set up to receive the gospel. I'm not going into any side arguments about election here, I'm just recognizing that there is what I'd call:

"The First Law of Evangelism: Certain People Are Known to Jesus and Drawn to Receive the Gospel."

"The Second Law of Evangelism: Those Who Are Drawn Will Respond to the Voice of Jesus."

Remember the Apostle Paul was inclined to go to Asia, but was directed instead to go to Macedonia. Macedonia was where the Holy Spirit had "warmed up" an audience for Paul. Macedonia was where a hapless jailer in Philippi was already enabled by the Father to hear the gospel--and didn't even realize it himself.

Moreover, the gospel he had been personally prepared to hear was not a speech from a marketplace corner, but the hymns sung by doomed men who were intended to die painfully in the filth-filled gutter of his own prison.

Paul's success lay in being where the Holy Spirit directed him, speaking what the Holy Spirit directed him.

 

[RDKirk]

As an analogy from a real-world circumstance:

Back during the Persian Gulf war, during its final stage when the ground campaign was about to start, an Army armored division in Saudi Arabia got strange orders.

The Iraqi army was facing them across the Kuwait border, but they were told to drive their tanks hard and fast to the west, around the Kuwait border directly into Iraq itself. They were to flank Kuwait and come down upon the Iraqi army from its rear instead of from the front.

But they looked at the distance and saw that they'd run out of fuel while still deep in Iraq--enemy territory.

The general told them, "Be at this point right in Iraw at the specified time. Fuel will be waiting for you. But you have travel this route and be right there at this time. No other route, no where else and no other time."

You see, during the earlier Air Campaign, the general had sent covert Special Operations units into Iraq. They had trod the route the tanks were to take and verified that the soil was hard enough to bear their weight. They had also identified a place where Air Force tanker planes could land, full of fuel.

But this was behind enemy lines, so the planes could not be there long. The planes would be there ready to offload their fuel only at a specified time, only at the specified place, and only for a specified length of time, then they'd have to take off before the nearest Iraqi unit could reach them.

How could the tank commanders know this for sure? They couldn't. Maybe the planes would not be there, and the tanks would be stranded in Iraq without fuel. Maybe the soil really wouldn't hold, and they'd be mired in the sand.

They couldn't know for sure. But the general said, "Go."

 

[Blade]

Yes He does
"God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us." And other verses the Holy Spirit even talks..

What each of use personally believe is us saying not GOD. Just like John 3:16 in Luke it is no different. If one asks the Father for the Holy Spirit He will give it. Jesus told the 12 to wait for the promise. Now.. the 12 then 120 after Jesus rose PRAISE GOD! Were all saved. They could have went anywhere and ALL were 100% saved.

But Jesus told them to wait for the promise. What was this "promise" Jesus asked the Father for what? The same thing...how much more will the Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask. Now.. I dont care what some man tells me about that. If JESUS said it.. I do it.. and I did..and just like JESUS said.. I did receive power "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: ". You can dance all you want and say I already have the Holy Spirit. I just said what is written. Not added or taken away.

Jesus left.. if Jesus did not the Holy Spirit would not come that "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:" So.. He is at work..everywhere.

And we all know man has MANY things to say about this and other things. But..thats not GODS word for me. I listen.. but.. if its not HIS word...if falls to the ground. For me.. like Samuel "Samuel grew, and the LORD was with him, and let none of his words fall to the ground."

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

if we're getting things revealed to us through scripture, then that's not us alone. That comes to us through the Holy Spirit's working "through The Church"... because when we read scriptures we are participating in the Church's worship service even if we are unaware of it at the time.

I'd like to know who came up with that doctrine, it certainly isn't from scripture. BTW, would you care to give your definition of "the Church". Do you know that people have found God with just the Bible? How is that possible according to you if a church was not involved?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

so the Holy Spirit does work in unbelievers, including those unbelievers who follow and practice false doctrines of certain denominations.

Could you tell me which Christian denomination does not believe in the Christ? When you call them unbelievers, do you think they are not saved because of their belief in false doctrines? What if they believe Jesus to be their Savior and are baptized, are they still "unbelievers"? Do you have a minimum set of doctrines that need to be acknowledge in order to be saved?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

I agree also, so if there is one individual with the Holy Spirit in a congregation does that mean the Holy Spirit is working with that congregation?

More to my point instead of exaggeration. What Christian denomination has only one individual with the Holy Spirit in one congregation? Do you believe to be called a Christian you must have the Holy Spirit in you? Of course there are some impostors like the Pharisees, but I am talking about a certainty that most every congregation of a Christian denomination has a quorum of Christians with the Holy Spirit in them.

 

[RDKirk]

I'd like to know who came up with that doctrine, it certainly isn't from scripture. BTW, would you care to give your definition of "the Church". Do you know that people have found God with just the Bible? How is that possible according to you if a church was not involved?

Bibles don't just fall from the sky like manna.

I think he's pointing out that the existence and availability of the bible to anyone, even in a lonely hotel room, is because of the Church in operation over the last 2,000 years to make the bible available.