Does the Holy Spirit work in the Church?

Does the Holy Spirit work in All Christian Denominations?

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 76.9%
  • No

    Votes: 3 23.1%

  • Total voters
    13

RDKirk

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More to my point instead of exaggeration. What Christian denomination has only one individual with the Holy Spirit in one congregation? Do you believe to be called a Christian you must have the Holy Spirit in you? Of course there are some impostors like the Pharisees, but I am talking about a certainty that most every congregation of a Christian denomination has a quorum of Christians with the Holy Spirit in them.

Well, since you qualified it as "most every," then maybe. And then only because a Holy Spirit "quorum" is officially defined in scripture as only two or three people. So, "most every" congregation of a Christian denomination has at least two or three Christians with the Holy Spirit in them. Okay.

But there are also some congregations in histry that have been so egregious in their collective activity that IMO anyone in whom the Holy Spirit really abided would have fled them.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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when we read scriptures we are participating in the Church's worship service
Bibles don't just fall from the sky like manna.

I think he's pointing out that the existence and availability of the bible to anyone, even in a lonely hotel room, is because of the Church in operation over the last 2,000 years to make the bible available.
I really don't think you correctly express the thoughts of Mr. Orthodox, but let him explain what he meant.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Bibles don't just fall from the sky like manna.

I think he's pointing out that the existence and availability of the bible to anyone, even in a lonely hotel room, is because of the Church in operation over the last 2,000 years to make the bible available.

That is true, but not exactly what I was speaking of... just a bit deeper. The texts we hold in our hands are the content of the Christian worship services from the 1-3 century. They are the "variables" inside service themselves. The Psalms are in the middle of our bible for a reason. That is, that they were used in the services.

If there were no bible their would be far fewer who find Christ. If it weren't for the services there would be no bible. If it weren't for The Church there would have been no services.

Couple this with the idea that you expressed. We see the 1st century services, even just a glimpse of them, every time we read a bible.

My point is that the Godhead does not "speak" to us directly. Like in the shower in the movie "Oh God"... "hello, don't catch cold (throws towel)... ah "shame", not sure why I felt like we needed that one." That would be a personal revelation, and that doesn't happen for us.

I mean that when HE moves us, it is through a medium of HIS own creation. Most of the time, that experience is a shared experience, shared even with those who came 1500 years ago. You read John 1:1-3 and come away with the understanding that Christ was the creator in the garden in Genesis... that is a shared understanding... although it might be an epiphany to us individually.

Forgive me...
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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As a counter question... how do we know it is "The Holy Spirit" that moves us and not just one that wants to usurp His authority? Satan being the author of lies is crafty to say the least. Lot's of truth mixed with one lie can lead us to ruin.

Forgive me...
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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(Kind of on a rant... feeling well enough to write out some things to you...)

Do all the denominations celebrate the same 12 Feasts of Christianity as the 3rd century Christian did?
Or do the perhaps celebrate all of them together in one big service like the two centuries before?

Do we all meet on the steps of Solmon's Porch in the morning before sunrise, to sign the psalms and take communion together there at sunrise? And from there do we take our communion gifts back with us to our homes and share our common bounty with our entire household?

Like my dad, most people believe that Christ was calling for a simplified worship, and to a great extent that is true! But "simplified worship" from the point of view of those who "kept the ways that are hard" is not willy nilly, anything goes. Just me, the bible and The Holy Spirit.

History has two teachers when it comes to Christianity... " Western scholasticism (based on texts)", where even non believers are invited to make conclusions, and the "schools" within The Apostolic Churches aka "parochial schools". One teaches us to think critically and the other gives us details and expects us to not question it's core beliefs. I suggest that when all the "parochial schools" agree on a point that it is common wisdom within The Church.

The scriptures themselves demand that we lay hold of wisdom. We of a disconnected western linage, hope to back these things up with scholasticism. That's really not a problem if we intend to "look on" with open minds. It all comes together.

Those first who believed that "Jesus Christ is the Son of God" were being trained in the rituals of the last supper.

Christ had taken this "liturgical meal" chaburah (also 'haburah', pl 'chaburoth'), a processional meal meant to empty the house of food before a fast, divided among closest friends, added wine and bread and completed the order of Melchizedek of which he commanded them to keep until HIS return.

The details of this meal, the words of institution, and what it all meant, was revealed to them after HIS resurrection and before HIS ascension. Christ taught that only those baptized into the community by the hands of HIS Apostles were to take part in the rite. And the rite of baptism had prerequisites... confession of sins (if one was old enough to confess) and statements of belief were required.

Back to the subject... How is it that people who are granted the power of speaking in "the spirit", would deny any knowledge of these things?

Two cups of coffee down... hope this isn't too disjointed.

Forgive me...
 
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Tolworth John

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My point is that evangelism is not a hit or miss situation. To put it in sales terms, Jesus does not call evangelists to make "cold calls." There are people who are being "drawn." They are spiritually identified--Jesus knows who they are.
But we don't.
So we are to tell everyone so that the spirit can pick up on the broadcast seed, water it and bring someone to Jesus.
 
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RDKirk

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As a counter question... how do we know it is "The Holy Spirit" that moves us and not just one that wants to usurp His authority? Satan being the author of lies is crafty to say the least. Lot's of truth mixed with one lie can lead us to ruin.

Forgive me...

So is your opinion that the Holy Spirit does not speak based on your fear that you would not know who it was?

And if you don't know who it is, how do you know that the Church Fathers knew who it was?
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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So is your opinion that the Holy Spirit does not speak based on your fear that you would not know who it was?

And if you don't know who it is, how do you know that the Church Fathers knew who it was?

I have no idea why The Holy Spirit does not speak verbally. Would be a shocking and strange experience wouldn't it?

I don't take any Church Fathers word as authoritative. Orthodox don't have that "top down" structure. I do believe in councils that become Ecumenical. I think that "AXIOS" from all corners, throughout time shows The Holy Spirit's directing us. This is more of a "bottom up" structure where the laity is used to show The Holy Spirit's ultimate guidance.

Forgive me...
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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The texts we hold in our hands are the content of the Christian worship services from the 1-3 century. If it weren't for the services there would be no bible. If it weren't for The Church there would have been no services.
You have this so backwards, you don't know which way is front. God's word came first. God spoke to Moses directly and gave him instructions for directing the first church. Later on the Jews expanded the festivals and prayers to include a more traditional church service. You have professed historical knowledge of the church. You should know this. The "old" NT churches continue and follow this pattern.

As for the part of church services where they read scripture, it goes without saying that the scripture existed first. Do you really think that King David went to the temple and in the middle of a "church service" wrote the Psalms? The books of the prophets, you think they were written in a church service? How about the historical books of the Bible?

Moving on to the NT. The gospels with Acts are historic accounts of Jesus' life and teachings. Read Luke's words directly.

Luke 1:1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.​

Now I will grant you that Luke 4:16-30 do contain the text of what Jesus said in a church service but the bulk of what is recorded in the gospels does not take place in a church service.

Moving on to Paul's letters, um they were letters to churches. They were certainly read in church services, but the letter was written first. Most of the rest of NT are in the same camp, letters to the church.
My point is that the Godhead does not "speak" to us directly. Like in the shower in the movie "Oh God" That would be a personal revelation, and that doesn't happen for us.
You secularize what God speaking to Christians is like. You use a movie as an example; how disparaging to how the Holy Spirit actually works.

Read scripture, not watch a movie, to learn how God uses the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does come to all reborn. The Holy Spirit does give various gifts in varying degrees to the reborn. The Holy Spirit does work in all and all are commanded to follow Jesus' commands and teach his word.

Acts 2:17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy
.

Luke 12:11 “When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say.

Luke 11:13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!

Acts 4:31 After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Romans 5:5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work. 7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.


I mean that when HE moves us, it is through a medium of HIS own creation. Most of the time, that experience is a shared experience, shared even with those who came 1500 years ago. You read John 1:1-3 and come away with the understanding that Christ was the creator in the garden in Genesis... that is a shared understanding... although it might be an epiphany to us individually.
Why would I read John 1:1-3? Why would any Christian read God's word privately? You promote an idea that the Holy Spirit would only reveal the truth in God's word if it is read from the pulpit in a church service. You have a dim view of God's word and the power of the Holy Spirit to work through God's word on an individual basis. You have an exalted view of the power of priests preaching God's word.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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You have this so backwards, you don't know which way is front.

Just one thing... what I said has been taught in the Orthodox Churches from the beginning. If I have it backwards then they did /do too.

Our conversation lacks a common frame of reference. Namely liturgical history. Perhaps you think that the Roman Mass just popped up out of nowhere? The original is known as The Divine Liturgy. Since you've never been to one, it would seem you should be more interested in asking questions that to blast someone with "you don't know what you're talking about". In this case, the ignorance of history is from your end.


BTW ~ If you intend to be this snarky, I'll just put you on ignore now. I didn't read the rest of your post. Not likely to either, the attitude just stopped me.

Forgive me...
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Just one thing... what I said has been taught in the Orthodox Churches from the beginning. If I have it backwards then they did /do too.
I hardly think the Orthodox Churches think that church services happened before there was scripture. If you take offense to me calling this backwards of an extreme amount, then so be it.
Our conversation lacks a common frame of reference. Namely liturgical history.
I guess confessing the Nicene Creed and believing scripture is God's true word is not enough of a common frame of reference to argue positions in GT. You do realize GT is for all Christian faiths. I suggest that if you don't like to be challenged by those that follow scripture above your liturgy, post in the EO section.
Since you've never been to one
You lie. How in the world would you ever know what churches I have been to?
BTW ~ If you intend to be this snarky, I'll just put you on ignore now. I didn't read the rest of your post. Not likely to either, the attitude just stopped me.
Like before, when you couldn't or wouldn't defend your arguments. I didn't really expect you to refute my last post, so this excuse is as good as the last.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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AnticipateHisComing,

25k post in GT over many years... the structure of this forum and many of the rules here were developed because of my interaction here.

You think your flaming is going to run me off?

Don't bother responding, I'm leaving your thread and no longer reading your posts. Welcome to my ignore list.

Forgive me...
 
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Lily of Valleys

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I agree also, so if there is one individual with the Holy Spirit in a congregation does that mean the Holy Spirit is working with that congregation?
The Holy Spirit would most likely either direct that individual to reform that congregation or to leave that congregation. Remember God said to Abraham He would not destroy Sodom if there were ten righteous found within the city? God ended up sending angels to instruct Lot to bring his family out of there.

I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues (Revelation 18:4)
 
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Lily of Valleys

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Could you tell me which Christian denomination does not believe in the Christ?
It depends on what it means by "believe".

You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. (James 2:19 NASB)​

When you call them unbelievers, do you think they are not saved because of their belief in false doctrines?

No, it is the other way round. They believe in false doctrines because they do not (yet) have the Holy Spirit.

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. (1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB)​

I have explained a bit more in this post here: Are we saved when we get doctrine 100% correct?

What if they believe Jesus to be their Savior and are baptized, are they still "unbelievers"?
Those who have truly received Christ will have the Holy Spirit, not those who don't:

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. (Romans 8:9)

The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God (Romans 8:16)

Only God can see people's heart, but how well the person knows God and how sensitive they are to sins are pretty telling signs if they have the Holy Spirit.

Do you have a minimum set of doctrines that need to be acknowledge in order to be saved?
We are not saved because of doctrines, but if we have received Christ, the Holy Spirit would teach us what God wants us to know if we have a humble heart to learn. That is, we do not let pride get in the way or try to interpret the Bible how we want it in order to give ourselves a license to sin.
 
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dreadnought

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This seems like such a simple question and I think we would all say yes.

BUT, a big but. The Church is not each person's church. It is easy to say the Holy Spirit works in the church each has chosen or been born into, but what about the church you disagree with?

The Church is the collection of all Christians. It is an invisible church made up of many different denominations. Different churches have different doctrines. Each claim the Holy Spirit has inspired them to the truth. Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit is of truth. How can we all be inspired by the Holy Spirit and still disagree?

To those that argue their church has special access to the Holy Spirit, read Jesus' words.
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

The way that Jesus is with us in this world is through the Holy Spirit. Further scripture says Jesus is the head and shepherd of the whole body of believers.


I think my simple question is not so simple. Does any have a simple answer for it?

I don't know that I have a good answer for my dilemma, but I don't believe those that think they are special and have a better line to the Holy Spirit such that only they are always true.

My best hope is in the thought that being a Christian is more than what you know. There will not be a doctrine test when you get to heaven that we will be judged on. Scripture does say we will be judged for our actions though. So, maybe the answer lies in what we do over what we know. Maybe it is just not that important how much we argue over different doctrines. This is hard for me to accept, especially with the prophecies of false teachings and apostasy coming to the Church.
The Holy Spirit works in all churches that allow him to work. Some churches are too prideful to allow him to work at all.
 
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Tayla

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Does the Holy Spirit work in the Church?
Of course he does. God's influence is limited in this current world. Only after the wicked spirits are removed in the new heavens and new earth; only then will God not be hindered.
 
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