Does the Holy Spirit work in the Church?

[AnticipateHisComing]

This seems like such a simple question and I think we would all say yes.

BUT, a big but. The Church is not each person's church. It is easy to say the Holy Spirit works in the church each has chosen or been born into, but what about the church you disagree with?

The Church is the collection of all Christians. It is an invisible church made up of many different denominations. Different churches have different doctrines. Each claim the Holy Spirit has inspired them to the truth. Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit is of truth. How can we all be inspired by the Holy Spirit and still disagree?

To those that argue their church has special access to the Holy Spirit, read Jesus' words.
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

The way that Jesus is with us in this world is through the Holy Spirit. Further scripture says Jesus is the head and shepherd of the whole body of believers.


I think my simple question is not so simple. Does any have a simple answer for it?

I don't know that I have a good answer for my dilemma, but I don't believe those that think they are special and have a better line to the Holy Spirit such that only they are always true.

My best hope is in the thought that being a Christian is more than what you know. There will not be a doctrine test when you get to heaven that we will be judged on. Scripture does say we will be judged for our actions though. So, maybe the answer lies in what we do over what we know. Maybe it is just not that important how much we argue over different doctrines. This is hard for me to accept, especially with the prophecies of false teachings and apostasy coming to the Church.

 

[Lily of Valleys]

I think the Holy Spirit works in individuals.

 

[sunshineforJesus]

I think the Holy Spirit works in individuals.

I agree.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

I think the Holy Spirit works in individuals.

Obviously the Holy Spirit only works in something that has a spirit, but denominations contain people with spirits. So would you say the Holy Spirit works in people of all Christian denominations?

 

[Lily of Valleys]

Obviously the Holy Spirit only works in something that has a spirit, but denominations contain people with spirits. So would you say the Holy Spirit works in people of all Christian denominations?

The Holy Spirit works in both believers and non-believers, all Christian denominations, but it is up to the individual to accept Him or to resist Him, to be led by Him or to be led by their flesh.

Not every single person in each Christian denomination have the Holy Spirit though, regardless of whether they claim to be Christians. These are the people who do not truly belong to God.

There are those who are infants in Christ that are still learning about God. But false teachers and false apostles among the church are people who are taught by the spirit of falsehood or the spirit of antichrist.

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. (Ephesians 2:1-2 NASB)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

This seems like such a simple question and I think we would all say yes.

BUT, a big but. The Church is not each person's church. It is easy to say the Holy Spirit works in the church each has chosen or been born into, but what about the church you disagree with?

The Church is the collection of all Christians. It is an invisible church made up of many different denominations. Different churches have different doctrines. Each claim the Holy Spirit has inspired them to the truth. Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit is of truth. How can we all be inspired by the Holy Spirit and still disagree?

To those that argue their church has special access to the Holy Spirit, read Jesus' words.
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

The way that Jesus is with us in this world is through the Holy Spirit. Further scripture says Jesus is the head and shepherd of the whole body of believers.


I think my simple question is not so simple. Does any have a simple answer for it?

I don't know that I have a good answer for my dilemma, but I don't believe those that think they are special and have a better line to the Holy Spirit such that only they are always true.

My best hope is in the thought that being a Christian is more than what you know. There will not be a doctrine test when you get to heaven that we will be judged on. Scripture does say we will be judged for our actions though. So, maybe the answer lies in what we do over what we know. Maybe it is just not that important how much we argue over different doctrines. This is hard for me to accept, especially with the prophecies of false teachings and apostasy coming to the Church.

What I see in the Book of Acts is that when The Holy Spirit is present and active in a church, there is tangible evidence. If there is no other evidence, there is an intense sense of the presence of God that brings strong conviction of sin in those not right with God, and draws unbelievers to Christ in a real way. Other tangible evidences can be prophecy, healing, deliverance from demons, the preaching having extraordinary power.

But where there is no intense sense of God's presence, or any other evidences, then it cannot be proved that The Holy Spirit is present and working in the church at all. Many churches have their formal, ordered programmes which would carry on whether The Holy Spirit is present or not. In fact, if there was no Holy Spirit, these programmes would continue regardless, and most church members wouldn't know the difference. Just because members get a warm fuzzy feeling in a service, it doesn't mean that this is The Holy Spirit. People can get the same feelings at any social gathering.

On the Day of Pentecost, the following progression happened:
1. Before The Holy Spirit came, the prayer meeting of the 120 was just the same as any of our current church prayer meetings - eyebrow wiping sessions.
2. When The Holy Spirit appeared, things happened. There was tangible evidence that He had arrived.
3. The effect was so intense, that the community around was alerted that something out of the ordinary was happening and thousands turned up to find out.
4. Peter got up and preached the gospel with power.
5. 3000 were converted to Christ in one day.

So, when The Holy Spirit is present and working in a church there is the same progression:
1. There is tangible evidence of His Presence.
2. The community around the church are alerted that something amazing is happening in that church and they turn up to see what is happening.
3. The gospel is preached in power.
4. Unbelievers are converted in significant numbers.

There are many, after a church service saying, "Oh. The Holy Spirit really moved among us today." But when asked about what evidence they can produce to prove their words true, they can't, because in normal church services, there is nothing of the above list. Instead, they merely have a warm, fuzzy, feeling and the sermon may be a bit encouraging to make them feel good.

We see in the household of Cornelius, and with the 12 disciples at Ephesus, that when The Holy Spirit arrived, something happened. They got more than just a warm fuzzy feeling. One lady I know, after praying to receive The Holy Spirit exclaimed, "I felt something!" I don't believe that she did receive anything, because if she had received The Holy Spirit, she would have known all about it, not just some vague fuzzy feeling.

Many congregations are just pretending The Holy Spirit is working in their churches just because things made them feel good after getting their Sunday religious fix. These people are just lukewarm folks, and Jesus said in Revelation 3:15, that He would spit such people out of His mouth. So, what does that say about the majority of western churches?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I voted no.

Does The Holy Spirit show up at every Holiness house across the nations and gives them the ability to speak in tongues every Sunday morning?

No.

Nor do I believe that God tells me things while I'm washing the dishes.

I do believe it when we see The Holy Spirit acting within the councils.

Acts 15:28
"For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;"

Forgive me...

 

[Hidden In Him]

It would depend on exactly what you meant by "work," since I believe He is working in all believers and in all churches and denominations in at least some sense, to bring them all closer to God.

But if you mean "work" in the same sense that He did during New Testament times, i.e. confirming the word with signs and wonders following, @Oscarr's response would be the preferred answer.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Many congregations are just pretending The Holy Spirit is working in their churches just because things made them feel good after getting their Sunday religious fix.

Forgive me...

 

[RDKirk]

The Holy Spirit works in individuals (and, yes, He may well speak to an individual while that person is washing dishes), and individuals ought to be members of a Body that carries out the mission of the Lord.

But most denominations also have doctrines and policies which act in some way to prevent that from happening as effectively as it might, slightly in some, but to a great extent in others.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The Holy Spirit works in individuals (and, yes, He may well speak to an individual while that person is washing dishes)...

Are you equating "speaking to you" with revelation or sudden manifestation or perception (an epiphany), like realizing something from scripture?

Do you remember "Oh God" the movie with John Denver? I think he was showering...

IN other words... if we're getting things revealed to us through scripture, then that's not us alone. That comes to us through the Holy Spirit's working "through The Church"... because when we read scriptures we are participating in the Church's worship service even if we are unaware of it at the time.

Forgive me...

 

[Lily of Valleys]

Don't forget it is the work of the Holy Spirit to bring unbelievers to Christ, so the Holy Spirit does work in unbelievers, including those unbelievers who follow and practice false doctrines of certain denominations.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Don't forget it is the work of the Holy Spirit to bring unbelievers to Christ, so the Holy Spirit does work in unbelievers, including those unbelievers who follow and practice false doctrines of certain denominations.

No doubt. The movement is strong. And HE blows where he will.

Forgive me...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It would depend on exactly what you meant by "work," since I believe He is working in all believers and in all churches and denominations in at least some sense, to bring them all closer to God.

But if you mean "work" in the same sense that He did during New Testament times, i.e. confirming the word with signs and wonders following, @Oscarr's response would be the preferred answer.

There are two sides to the activity of The Holy Spirit. There is the personal side where The Holy Spirit in us brings us into close fellowship with God and gives us that wonderful sense of His presence that makes prayer just flow out because we know that we know that we know that we are speaking to a real Person whom we don't have to see with our eyes because He is so real in our spirit. When that first happened to me in the middle of a golf course in the dead of night, the presence of God was so real that I would not have been surprised if Jesus had walked out from behind a tree and said, "Hello!"

Then there is the corporate activity of The Holy Spirit in worship meetings. That's where things happen. If nothing happens other than three hymns and a sermon, we have no reason to believe that The Holy Spirit is doing anything there. Sure, because we all have The Holy Spirit within us, as soon as we walk into the place, we bring the atmosphere with us. We don't, as some think is necessary, to have to hype it up to get 'in the mood" as it were. Some outfits work them up into a frenzy during their worship times because they think that they can crank up The Holy Spirit in some way. I believe He stands back and asks, "What in land sakes are these people trying to do?" No. The atmosphere is there as soon as everyone comes in and sits down. All they have to do is believe it - that when two or three are gathered together there am I [Jesus] in the midst of them." Here is there because His representative, The Holy Spirit is inside every believer present. I love that expression and nearly fall off my chair laughing at it: "Lord may your Holy Spirit come and hover over us." He doesn't do that! He has already landed!!! He's not only landed, He has entered right into our spirit. If we really believe that, instead of trying to hype things up to get Him to move, all we need to do is to step out in faith and start using the gifts He has provided.

Prophecy is a great way to get things jumping. I have seen prophecy bring the glory of God down on a meeting like nothing you have ever seen before! And it spoils you for everything else. Once you have experienced the glory of God in a meeting, the old three hymns and a sermon seems like the spiritual Sahara desert!

Paul said about prophecy: That if all prophesy, people will have their hearts revealed and they will fall on their knees and faces acknowledging that God is among us in reality. What a way to bring the presence of God into a service with intensity that believers will break into spontaneous praise and worship and unbelievers will fall on their knees and get converted! Then after that, sick people get healed and others are set free from demonic bondages. Now that is Church with a capital C!! We need to pray earnestly that this happens.

Sadly, it often doesn't happen because so many just don't believe that it can and will. They are set in their belief that church is just having the songs, a bit of praise and worship led by a group up the front, a few church notices, an adult Bible study type of sermon, maybe an altar call to get a few people pushed over (I'm JOKING, so don't send me letters!), out the back for coffee and cookies, and all go home for lunch.
So, as a wonderful Chinese brother said once, instead of going home full of The Spirit, we go home full of coffee and cookies!

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Forgive me...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Are you equating "speaking to you" with revelation or sudden manifestation or perception (an epiphany), like realizing something from scripture?

Do you remember "Oh God" the movie with John Denver? I think he was showering...

IN other words... if we're getting things revealed to us through scripture, then that's not us alone. That comes to us through the Holy Spirit's working "through The Church"... because when we read scriptures we are participating in the Church's worship service even if we are unaware of it at the time.

Forgive me...

I'm probably repeating myself about the personal activity of The Holy Spirit within us. It is not so much a specific revelation or sudden manifestation. It is a deep abiding sense of the presence of God much like having a companion in the room whom we cannot see, but we know He is there. Since I first met God in that golf course in 1969, I have never again felt the sense of loneliness that I often had before. I don't have to "practice the presence of God", in the sense of having to do that to get a sense of His presence. I believe that Brother Lawrence knew the presence of God in his life and he wrote his book to encourage Christians to have more faith in His presence with us anywhere, even while doing the dishes.

But I don't have to "practice" the presence of God, because He is there anyway. I just talk to Him about everything, everywhere I go. I do it just like I talk to my wife or my friends. He is a real Person in my life and I treat Him as such. If I tried formal language with Him, He would say, "Why on earth are you talking like a twit. That's not you. Come on man, be real!" Because of His abiding presence with me, I can share the deepest things of my heart. I can say things to Him that I would never say to anyone else. If I think that someone in the church is a hockey puck, I will say that to the Lord, I tell Him that although I would never say anything like that to anyone else, I can say it to Him because He understands and knows my heart. If someone criticises me, I go and ask the Lord if that came from Him, and He will say yes or no, depending on whether He thinks it would help me or not. There have been times when He has told me not to listen to a person because that person's criticism does not come from Him. And then He has said to listen to that other person because He is speaking from His heart to me. A friend sent me a Christian book. When I received it, the Lord said to me, "Your job today is to read that book!" As I read it, sentences jumped out of every page which had a real impact on me.

Of course, revelations and manifestations can be a part of that, but not the foundation of it. I remember going through a difficult period in my life, and I went walking along a wide lonely beach praying. In my thoughts the Lord took me through what the cross meant, then He showed the meaning of the Resurrection, and the Ascension. Then, as I looked over the waves of the sea, I saw a vivid minds-eye picture of the Lord sitting on His throne, above the waves, and I knew that He is sitting in victory over all my circumstances. I just ran and jumped down that beach yelling "Yahoo!" such was the impact of that "vision". It changed my life and I went from a low point to some very significant victories in my life over the next year or so. So that was a revelation that came out of my personal fellowship with the Lord. Interestingly enough when I remember that time, I can still see that image of the Lord sitting on His throne above the waves. It seems to have been imprinted on my brain for ever!

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I'm probably repeating myself about the personal activity of The Holy Spirit within us. It is not so much a specific revelation or sudden manifestation. It is a deep abiding sense of the presence of God much like having a companion in the room whom we cannot see, but we know He is there. Since I first met God in that golf course in 1969, I have never again felt the sense of loneliness that I often had before. I don't have to "practice the presence of God", in the sense of having to do that to get a sense of His presence. I believe that Brother Lawrence knew the presence of God in his life and he wrote his book to encourage Christians to have more faith in His presence with us anywhere, even while doing the dishes.

But I don't have to "practice" the presence of God, because He is there anyway. I just talk to Him about everything, everywhere I go. I do it just like I talk to my wife or my friends. He is a real Person in my life and I treat Him as such. If I tried formal language with Him, He would say, "Why on earth are you talking like a twit. That's not you. Come on man, be real!" Because of His abiding presence with me, I can share the deepest things of my heart. I can say things to Him that I would never say to anyone else. If I think that someone in the church is a hockey puck, I will say that to the Lord, I tell Him that although I would never say anything like that to anyone else, I can say it to Him because He understands and knows my heart. If someone criticises me, I go and ask the Lord if that came from Him, and He will say yes or no, depending on whether He thinks it would help me or not. There have been times when He has told me not to listen to a person because that person's criticism does not come from Him. And then He has said to listen to that other person because He is speaking from His heart to me. A friend sent me a Christian book. When I received it, the Lord said to me, "Your job today is to read that book!" As I read it, sentences jumped out of every page which had a real impact on me.

Of course, revelations and manifestations can be a part of that, but not the foundation of it. I remember going through a difficult period in my life, and I went walking along a wide lonely beach praying. In my thoughts the Lord took me through what the cross meant, then He showed the meaning of the Resurrection, and the Ascension. Then, as I looked over the waves of the sea, I saw a vivid minds-eye picture of the Lord sitting on His throne, above the waves, and I knew that He is sitting in victory over all my circumstances. I just ran and jumped down that beach yelling "Yahoo!" such was the impact of that "vision". It changed my life and I went from a low point to some very significant victories in my life over the next year or so. So that was a revelation that came out of my personal fellowship with the Lord. Interestingly enough when I remember that time, I can still see that image of the Lord sitting on His throne above the waves. It seems to have been imprinted on my brain for ever!

But as you said earlier, Christ (or anybody else) didn't step out from behind a tree and say hello, much less start telling us things that have not been revealed to everyone everywhere who will listen.

Being overly simplistic but, he didn't tell us about an earthquake next week.

Forgive me...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

But as you said earlier, Christ (or anybody else) didn't step out from behind a tree and say hello, much less start telling us things that have not been revealed to everyone everywhere who will listen.

Being overly simplistic but, he didn't tell us about an earthquake next week.

Forgive me...

I don't think he would have. He just sent The Holy Spirit to live inside me. I don't go much on predictive stuff. My view of prophecy is that it is a love letter from God to lift us up, comfort us, and exhort us in the present.

It is interesting that although I did relate the one and only time I think I got a "vision" (if you want to call it that), I did ask the Lord once whether I was going to get visions and dreams like some others are saying they receive. He told me that I didn't need them because I was having close fellowship with Him and that is all I would ever need. He gave me the scripture, "Truly our fellowship with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ." That was good enough for me, and I have never chased visions or dreams. Although I have crazy dreams at times, but then I think I'm a crazy person so, what's new?

 

[RDKirk]

But as you said earlier, Christ (or anybody else) didn't step out from behind a tree and say hello, much less start telling us things that have not been revealed to everyone everywhere who will listen.

Being overly simplistic but, he didn't tell us about an earthquake next week.

Forgive me...

I don't see why He would, unless He wanted you to do something specific for His mission in regard to that earthquake.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I don't see why He would, unless He wanted you to do something specific for His mission in regard to that earthquake.

Likewise He would not tell different groups different things.

Right?

Forgive me...