Suffer Not a Woman to Teach a Man

[AlexDTX]

Right. Also, if there are men in your church whose faith would be harmed by women even just serving as ushers (or whatever), then Paul teaching is that they should not. It's that simple.

In our own church, I think we don't have any whose faith will be harmed by a woman speaking from the pulpit, as occasionally happens. It doesn't seem to reduce attendance or cause consternation. We are in line with Paul's teaching then, as you get from full reading (such as I pointed to above in my initial answer).

Very well said - for the Church. But what about Christian men and women in the work force?

 

[AlexDTX]

Women are about relationships, men more involved in practical solutions. Most men simply put people in categories and there are rules. Women see it more as in flux, they are not that good at static authoritarian relationships. I have long believed a woman in the pulpit was neglecting something she could do a lot more effectively.

Let tyrants fear; I have always so behaved myself that, under God, I have placed my chiefest strength and safeguard in the loyal hearts and good will of my subjects. (Elizabeth 1, before the defeat of the Spanish Armada)
​

She didn't speak like a king, but like a mother. Women can handle places of authority but I think they will be more into relationships then authority, with men it comes naturally.

Very well said, again. Thank you. That is the problem I have on my job. I have a Christian supervisor who is a woman and I see her having two responses. When she speaks to our employer she is submissive. But as a supervisor she treats everyone like a mother. I believe this is why sons rebel from their mothers because mothers do not understand what it means to be a man. Likewise the men under her supervision resent being treated like children. And she wants us to talk like women, although she does say it that way. I also think this is another turnoff for pagan men when they hear Christian men talking like women with too much concern for sensitivity to other people's feelings.

 

[Hidden In Him]

So many men in television comedies are portrayed as infantile buffoons who have wise women to lead them. It is an emasculating role change that is damaging society.

Sorry, I was caught up in another thread, but first off YES, this disturbs me as well. It wouldn't be pleasant for anyone to be portrayed that way, husbands or wives, and it bothers me that it seems to be acceptable when it is the men who are continually the brunt of the joke.

But I don't believe now it is limited to marriage. Consider the Isaiah passage where God laments the men of Israel not being men and being oppressed by children and women.

Now about your Isaiah passage, my interpretation here is not that all women were proclaimed by God to be unfit to lead. Remember that Deborah led Israel and did very well. The problem was that the average woman was usually frightfully inexperienced at leadership. Hence the similar comparison to children and even babes becoming leaders a few verses earlier (Isaiah 3:4).

Also the insult God makes to Babylon saying the men will be like women.

This is more a derogatory against men demeaning themselves than a derogatory against women. That would kinda make the Loving God out to be a bit of a misogynist (not that you were intending to by any means).

And as Paul Timothy, the woman was made for the man, not the man for the woman.

Yes, but again this statement is made in the context of discussing the marriage relationship.

 

[Edo2]

Very well said - for the Church. But what about Christian men and women in the work force?

I can only speak from my experience and what I've seen in my particular career. I work in a female dominated profession so is its kinda interesting to hear a womens point of view on things at times.

Probably the best manager I've had and the best environment I've been in as a worker was where their was a woman manager. She was a Christian and very good at her job. It was because of the relationship she had with her employees that made her into a leader. She respected valued and appreciated each one of us and didn't treat us like just a warm body to fill a need. We knew she would stand up for us as well. Very good Christian women as well as leader.


I've had a good n bad mangers between men and women and their wasn't anything that was gender specific that was the reason. Deborah had authority over men so their is biblical backing for women to be in authority.

I work nights and have quite a bit of independence in what i do but i always try and remember that no matter who i have as a manager, I'm there to serve god first.

 

[Penny Feeley]

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1Ti_2:12)​

I have read many discussions on this topic and understood why such a statement should be made by Paul. I understand the argument that Paul makes but I did not understand why he made the argument.

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.​

The order of creation and the intention of God that a woman help a man I understand, but it still does not really say why it is wrong to have a woman have authority over man and to teach him. Verse 15, at first glance, seems to imply that a woman's eternal salvation is also at stake, but that does not agree with the Gospel. One commentator said it means that the woman would not die in child bearing, which has been an historically common occurrence. That seems more likely to me.

But I also remember other Old Testament statements that show men being ruled by women as a curse. In Isaiah 3:12 Yahweh through Isaiah laments the weakness of the men and the disgraceful condition they were in.

As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. (Isa_3:12)​

The mighty men of Babylon have forborn to fight, they have remained in their holds: their might hath failed; they became as women: they have burned her dwelling places; her bars are broken. (Jer_51:30)​

In today's American society women have been given the privilege of college education resulting now in many more women earning more money than their husbands, despite the “glass ceiling” that bars them from executive corporate positions. More and more women are in management positions over men today than ever before.

I grew up in California, and although I have now followed Christ for 33 years and lean more in a conservative direction, I still have liberal views. Consequently, I have felt that if a man can't do something and a woman can do it, more power to her. And in many ways I still hold that view. But understanding why the Bible discourages women having authority over men continued to be puzzling to me, until now.

Frankly, I don't think women understand men at all. It is also clear that most men do not understand women. I think this is why women are encouraged to teach other women instead.

Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.​

Women understand other women and men understand men. I don't believe most women understand the need men have for respect and appreciation for what they do. I think this is one significant element of so many divorces, including within Christian marriages. And I think it is a source of contention for men in the work place who have women as supervisors.

I know this is an old discussion, but I would be interested in hearing what others have to say.

 

[Penny Feeley]

I am not able to quote scriptures but from what I understand i know there are many prophetess in the Old Testament. Women where not to chatter in church. But to ask their husband in privacy. men were also not allowed to Chatterr in church. And if they did not have a husband they would go to the priest. I believe this has to do with respect for the holy church. not to put down women at all but much respect was given too many women such as Ruth Rebecca and many women the children of Israel(Jacob) which included many holy women strong women. my point is you cannot pick up one verse without reading the whole Old testsment

 

[Neogaia777]

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1Ti_2:12)​

I have read many discussions on this topic and understood why such a statement should be made by Paul. I understand the argument that Paul makes but I did not understand why he made the argument.

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.​

The order of creation and the intention of God that a woman help a man I understand, but it still does not really say why it is wrong to have a woman have authority over man and to teach him. Verse 15, at first glance, seems to imply that a woman's eternal salvation is also at stake, but that does not agree with the Gospel. One commentator said it means that the woman would not die in child bearing, which has been an historically common occurrence. That seems more likely to me.

But I also remember other Old Testament statements that show men being ruled by women as a curse. In Isaiah 3:12 Yahweh through Isaiah laments the weakness of the men and the disgraceful condition they were in.

As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. (Isa_3:12)​

The mighty men of Babylon have forborn to fight, they have remained in their holds: their might hath failed; they became as women: they have burned her dwelling places; her bars are broken. (Jer_51:30)​

In today's American society women have been given the privilege of college education resulting now in many more women earning more money than their husbands, despite the “glass ceiling” that bars them from executive corporate positions. More and more women are in management positions over men today than ever before.

I grew up in California, and although I have now followed Christ for 33 years and lean more in a conservative direction, I still have liberal views. Consequently, I have felt that if a man can't do something and a woman can do it, more power to her. And in many ways I still hold that view. But understanding why the Bible discourages women having authority over men continued to be puzzling to me, until now.

Frankly, I don't think women understand men at all. It is also clear that most men do not understand women. I think this is why women are encouraged to teach other women instead.

Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.​

Women understand other women and men understand men. I don't believe most women understand the need men have for respect and appreciation for what they do. I think this is one significant element of so many divorces, including within Christian marriages. And I think it is a source of contention for men in the work place who have women as supervisors.

I know this is an old discussion, but I would be interested in hearing what others have to say.

That's because it is true, that she says it best to the man when she says nothing at all or does this...

She can walk away, use body language, and looks and such, but she learns and grows best, and she's not supposed to try and teach him with words, anyway, and says it best to the man, a good man anyway, when "she says nothing at all", in that sense, there are other ways to communicate though, you know...

She should not stay with a bad abusive man though, some just won't learn by your (a woman's example) of submission, and will even use and abuse you...

But, a good man, that is really the best way to "say" it to him is what God, and Paul says... And will be showing the man respect, and a good man very much values and see's the kind of respect you show him, even and even most especially, when he knows he does not deserve it...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

That's because it is true, that she says it best to the man when she says nothing at all or does this...

She can walk away, use body language, and looks and such, but she learns and grows best, and she's not supposed to try and teach him with words, anyway, and says it best to the man, a good man anyway, when "she says nothing at all", in that sense, there are other ways to communicate though, you know...

She should not stay with a bad abusive man though, some just won't learn by your (a woman's example) of submission, and will even use and abuse you...

But, a good man, that is really the best way to "say" it to him is what God, and Paul says... And will be showing the man respect, and a good man very much values and see's the kind of respect you show him, even and even most especially, when he knows he does not deserve it...

God Bless!

 

[Penny Feeley]

Remember Elizabeth and Mary God found favor in them and was delighted. These two women God knew them before they were they. Were conceived. They both came from the levite tribe. Both were visited by an Angel Gabriel to spread a good word that God has found favor and glory in Both of them. God has all the respect for women.

 

[Neogaia777]

The roles are kind of reversed today, which is causing all kinds of havoc...

 

[Righttruth]

Women have superior abilities and talents to raise a family. God created woman mainly to help her husband by accepting his leadership in the family. Any other responsibility is ungodly. In spiritual matters she is bound to have limited insight. For a Christian woman, man is first her head then Jesus Christ.

 

[Neogaia777]

I don't think it would be wise for the woman, say in both of them being before God, or the woman before the man, even more so, throw away the "right to remain silent" if she wishes, it can be a powerful thing, that I think women are actually best suited for the woman, she is allowed the right to remain silent and do this before God and Man and not be judged for it, but the Man does not have this right before God as the head, he is supposed to intercede for his family and loved ones... And the roles kind of got reversed and the man want to be and remain silent, while the woman wants to be verbal...

And why @Righttruth are women more limited in spiritual matters...? I think that's a load of crap...

God Bless!

 

[SkyWriting]

I know this is an old discussion, but I would be interested in hearing what others have to say.

Rules treating women different from men are blasphemy.
Let's assume some of my neighbors are women, just for argument.
Please explain why I am wrong.

Matthew 19:19 Honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself.'
Luke 6:31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
Galatians 5:14 The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
What Does the Bible Say About Neighbors?

 

[samir]

Greetings Alex.

I take the position that the teaching is not addressed to women in general but to wives, specifically because in agreeing to become a wife they would take on the role of reflecting the bride of Christ (i.e. the church), who is clearly subordinate to the Lord (Ephesians 5:23-24). The reason why this is not commonly understood is because most translations choose the word "woman" over "wife" in such passages, though the Greek could be translated either way.

A proper rendering of your passage, then, would be as follows:

"Let the wife learn in silence, with all subjection. But I suffer not a wife to teach nor usurp authority over [her] husband, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman (i.e. his wife) being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

You see how much better the translation of wife fits in with the context? He's talking about wives usurping authority (over husbands). He then talks about Adam and Eve (the first husband and wife) to reference how she decided to teach her husband and things didn't go so well. And then mentions childbearing. Unmarried women are nowhere encouraged in scripture to bear children, thus this entire passage is talking about married women, as are several other passages on this same theme.

Are you saying married women can't be pastors but single women can?

 

[Hank77]

But I also remember other Old Testament statements that show men being ruled by women as a curse.

And the whole nation of Israel was judged by a woman during 40 years of peace after a battle that she lead with Barack against a Canaanite king. That was Deborah.

 

[Neogaia777]

Are you saying married women can't be pastors but single women can?

I think it only applies to spouses, wives to husbands, cause certainly it doesn't mean for her not to teach her children, or others either does it...?

And does Paul say anything specifically about being a spiritual head or teacher of others (with women)...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I think it only applies to spouses, wives to husbands, cause certainly it doesn't mean for her not to teach her children, or others either does it...?

And does Paul say anything specifically about being a spiritual head or teacher of others (with women)...?

God Bless!

The children need to see that role modeled in the home, in their mother's... It teaches them something very valuable... and for a wife not to be ever disrespecting her husband, is, or should be, like a priceless treasure to a man...

 

[Neogaia777]

The children need to see that role modeled in the home, in their mother's... It teaches them something very valuable... and for a wife not to be ever disrespecting her husband, is, or should be, like a priceless treasure to a man...

Now, as to how the man should be is spoken about in scripture too...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Don't go through the vicious cycle of fighting or arguing or verbally abusing one another, just to make up a little later on, kind of thing either... We can become chemically conditioned and biologically programmed physically in the brain, to this kind of behavior, someone has to be the adult and put a stop to it if that is happening in a spouse...

I get sick on roller coaster rides, and I don't think, and will not believe that is "real love" either, but a lie of the world...

God Bless!

 

[Followers4christ]

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1Ti_2:12)​

I have read many discussions on this topic and understood why such a statement should be made by Paul. I understand the argument that Paul makes but I did not understand why he made the argument.

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.​

The order of creation and the intention of God that a woman help a man I understand, but it still does not really say why it is wrong to have a woman have authority over man and to teach him. Verse 15, at first glance, seems to imply that a woman's eternal salvation is also at stake, but that does not agree with the Gospel. One commentator said it means that the woman would not die in child bearing, which has been an historically common occurrence. That seems more likely to me.

But I also remember other Old Testament statements that show men being ruled by women as a curse. In Isaiah 3:12 Yahweh through Isaiah laments the weakness of the men and the disgraceful condition they were in.

As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. (Isa_3:12)​

The mighty men of Babylon have forborn to fight, they have remained in their holds: their might hath failed; they became as women: they have burned her dwelling places; her bars are broken. (Jer_51:30)​

In today's American society women have been given the privilege of college education resulting now in many more women earning more money than their husbands, despite the “glass ceiling” that bars them from executive corporate positions. More and more women are in management positions over men today than ever before.

I grew up in California, and although I have now followed Christ for 33 years and lean more in a conservative direction, I still have liberal views. Consequently, I have felt that if a man can't do something and a woman can do it, more power to her. And in many ways I still hold that view. But understanding why the Bible discourages women having authority over men continued to be puzzling to me, until now.

Frankly, I don't think women understand men at all. It is also clear that most men do not understand women. I think this is why women are encouraged to teach other women instead.

Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.​

Women understand other women and men understand men. I don't believe most women understand the need men have for respect and appreciation for what they do. I think this is one significant element of so many divorces, including within Christian marriages. And I think it is a source of contention for men in the work place who have women as supervisors.

I know this is an old discussion, but I would be interested in hearing what others have to say.

The Bible says a lot on this subject and gives reasons behind the reasons.

Eph 5:22-24 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

1 Tim 2:11-15 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

1 Corinthians 11:7-9 A man ought not to cover his head,bsince he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

Also the Bible does say that it is good for women to teach other women as you pointed out as women can teach other women better then a man can.

Titus 2:3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good.