Presbyterian Minister Cancelled Wedding After Bride Declared Support for Same-Sex Marriage

[Radagast]

A Minister of a Presbyterian church in Australia cancelled the wedding of a couple after the bride-to-be declared on Facebook that she supported same-sex marriage:

Church cancels wedding because bride and groom supported gay marriage on Facebook

There's probably more to the story than we're hearing from the media. I assume that the letter from the pastor represents the final result of a discussion process that's naturally confidential.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

I wonder if the minister would refuse to marry someone who works in a bank since usury is prohibited in Scripture? What about a pastry chef since gluttony is a sin?

It's highly doubtful. Many Christians seem to only have one pet sin and that's homosexuality. Never mind lying, stealing, lust (inappropriate contentography), adultery, gluttony, and every other possible sin. I think many Christians only condemn homosexuality because it's the one sin they more than likely not to be guilty of themselves or else they personally have a hidden tendency toward homosexual feelings and they're more condemning of it than any other sexual sin. If that isn't the case, then it's probably much easier on their conscience to judge and cast stones at homosexuals, knowing they can judge these people without being guilty of this particular sin themselves. It probably makes them feel more righteous.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

In Australia this minister is going to take a lot of flack for this and it took a lot of courage for him to make stand in this day and age. In our post modern society moral relativism has people very confused. When some thing like this issue it is important to know what the Bible says about it.

Romans 1 is very telling as we see a progression described that our modern world has paralleled. In the 1950's in the US all 48 states had anti sodomy laws on the books. Up till the 60's homosexuality was listed in text books as an abnormal psychological condition in secular textbooks.

Romans 1 begins a though line in verse 17,

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

1st thing to note wrath against those who suppress the truth.
2. God gave all men evidence in nature and they chose not to glorify God and were unthankful.
3. They became futile in their thoughts and their hearts were darkened.
4. They celebrate nature and not the creator of nature

The progression or regression goes on

4 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[fn] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[fn] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

notes
1.God gave them up to uncleanness to lust and dishonor their bodies. They have chosen a lie instead of truth. They serve the creature (Satan) not the creator.
2.God gives them over to vile passions and homosexuality is clearly described by God as unnatural and shameful.
3.Lastly they are given over to a debased mind because they did not retain God in their knowledge.
4. the wrath of God is on all those who practice these things but also on those who approve of them.

This minister is loving these people in showing them that they are outside the lines. The LORD is about saving the lost and the lost need know they are lost and in need of a savior. A little leaven leavens the whole lump and many churches are infected with the same values this couple represents.

God bless the minister and the couple perhaps they might rethink their own walk with the LORD.

As Jesus said to the naked woman caught in adultery I do not condemn you go and sin no more. This message is to all peoples of all sins but according to Romans those who support the gay agenda have made this very progression described in this chapter.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Jesus did not condemn sin, He said go and sin no more. How does one tolerate the beliefs of another, when only God knows the heart? The minister felt that the couple was wrong based on a statement that was made about any outside circumstance on an outside forum. Instead of forgiving...or not condemning and telling them to sin no more.....He threw stones....that were potentially very costly to the couple....as he acknowledged in his letter.

Actually, Jesus did condemn sin...quite often. It was kind of a central theme for Him.

Also, He forgave repentant people and told them to sin no more. There is nothing in this lady's statement to indicate she has changed her position of supporting willful sin. As a matter of fact, she seems to double down on the idea.

 

[JackRT]

The historical Christian approach to marriage is that it is the couple who marry each other and that the church and/or the state act only to witness and legitimize the union. It was only in the eleventh century (IIRC) that church marriage was required for all marriages. Prior to that, church marriage was usually only for the rich and powerful for the purpose of consolidating wealth and power.

 

[miknik5]

Innocent as a dove and wise as a serpent

I have to believe that the preacher did not have any guile in his heart...It wasn't as if he deliberately chose to marry this couple with the hidden agenda of exposing them

However, after discovering their viewpoint which is against the body of CHRIST, he can no longer follow through

It is apparent his conscience is not at peace and if he were to go against his conscience, he would sin since anything done in doubt is sin

 

[JackRT]

In the 1950's in the US all 48 states had anti sodomy laws on the books. Up till the 60's homosexuality was listed in text books as an abnormal psychological condition in secular textbooks.

The fact that these ancient attitudes have been largely put aside is proof to me that the Holy Spirit continues to work in the world.

 

[JackRT]

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

No doubt Paul was unaware of the distinction between sexual orientation, over which one has apparently very little choice, and sexual behavior, over which one does. He seemed to assume that those whom he condemns are heterosexual, and are acting contrary to nature, "leaving," "giving up," or "exchanging" their regular sexual orientation for that which is foreign to them. Paul knew nothing of the modern psychological understanding of homosexuals as persons whose orientation is fixed early in life, persons for whom having heterosexual relations would be contrary to nature, "leaving," "giving up" or "exchanging" their natural sexual orientation for one that was unnatural to them.

In other words, Paul really thought that those whose behavior he condemned were "straight," and that they were behaving in ways that were unnatural to them. Paul believed that everyone was "straight." He had no concept of homosexual orientation. The idea was not available in his world. There are people who are genuinely homosexual by nature (whether genetically or as a result of upbringing no one really knows, and it is irrelevant). For such a person it would be acting contrary to nature to have sexual relations with a person of the opposite sex.

Likewise the relationships Paul describes are heavy with lust; they are not relationships of consenting adults who are committed to each other as faithfully and with as much integrity as any heterosexual couple. That was something Paul simply could not envision.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

A Minister of a Presbyterian church in Australia cancelled the wedding of a couple after the bride-to-be declared on Facebook that she supported same-sex marriage:

Church cancels wedding because bride and groom supported gay marriage on Facebook

These are the minister's reasons:

"After the pre-marital counselling that you attended and the sermons delivered at Ebenezer on this subject, you must surely appreciate that your commitment to same-sex marriage opposes the teaching of Christ Jesus and the scriptural position practiced by the Presbyterian Church of Australia and by me,"

"This conflict of views has practical consequences in relation to your upcoming wedding.

"By continuing to officiate it would appear either that I support your views on same-sex marriage or that I am uncaring about this matter. As you know, neither statement is correct.

"Also, if the wedding proceeded in the Ebenezer St John's church buildings, the same inferences could be drawn about the Presbyterian denomination. Such inferences would be wrong."​

These are the couple's responses:

"We feel this decision is absolutely disgraceful and is a disgrace to you and all the church, especially when we have been loyal and valued members of this congregation for 10 years,"

"You were made aware from the beginning of our proceedings that we had gay friends and also that people in our wedding party were gay. How could you assume that we would abandon them or degrade them with regards to same-sex marriage?

"We understand we did agree with the teachings of the church in our marriage counselling but just because we agree with that for our own lives, doesn't mean that we have to push those beliefs onto others."​

What do you think? Whose reasons do you think are more valid to support their decision? The church minister or the couple? Why?


EDIT: Letter added below

Malcolm Turnbull defends right of church to refuse to marry couples who support gay marriage

What does "support same sex marriage" mean in this context? Does it mean that one is willing to share a meal in the home of a gay couple? Does it mean one is willing to avoid trying to hit on one of such a couple, out of respect for their commitment to each other? Does it mean one is willing to share advice on how they can maintain their lawn better? Does it mean one is willing to share advice on how to get good marital counseling?

 

[Shiloh Raven]

The fact that these ancient attitudes have been largely put aside is proof to me that the Holy Spirit continues to work in the world.

And if I may say so, thank goodness these ancient shortsighted, prejudicial, and misguided attitudes have ultimately changed. I'm thankful homosexuals and other LGBT people are treated so much better than they once were, especially in the Christian church. I say bless these poor souls who have had to fight so hard for better treatment and for equal rights and equality. I admire their courage.

 

[com7fy8]

You say it is not you who say it is wrong but Jesus? No, it is your interpretation of scripture that says is it wrong. It is clear in scripture, you say? Then why are they so many denominations if everything is clear?

Ok, so you do understand what I mean. Thank you I am not going only by what I think. I have read different things in the Bible, and I have experience of things, which I understand are now not allowed for me to get into, because of Christian Forums rules.

Whoever is right, there are counterfeits galore to the contrary; this is how Satan's kingdom works > mix things up, make it look as though it is impossible to get things straight. You could add how there are scholars of the Bible who do not agree on this. But always Satan comes up with things to try to pick apart whatever is right. How we are becoming in ourselves is one measure of if we are really getting all which God considers to be right.

There is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience," our Apostle Paul does say in Ephesians 2:2. While we are into what God's love has us feeling and believing and doing, He shares His own peace with us in His own kindness with joy. But in what is wrong, the evil spirit of disobedience is messing us with the domination and dictation of lusts and nasty and raging anger and unforgiveness and boredom and loneliness and shame and guilt and fear and anxiety, which people are reaping, more and more if they are investing in what is wrong > Galatians 6:7-8. So, right in our own selves, we can tell if we are going the right way or not.

So, part of where I am coming from is, what I have actually observed in my own self and others, and what the Bible says about it.

By the way, Jesus to me is clear how we should not be surprised, at all, if we are right and we are rejected . . . and even killed for His name. He says to rejoice that we are suffering because of honoring and obeying Jesus. But yes some number of people claiming to be Christians are so bent out of shape and hurt about being rejected for standing for holy matrimony . . . while others for same-sex marriage are very upset about not being accepted by basic Bible people.

But Jesus says if you are really right, I consider He means, then God is giving you joy and you are sure He accepts and even honors you, no matter how Satanic people make things look and treat you

 

[miknik5]

The historical Christian approach to marriage is that it is the couple who marry each other and that the church and/or the state act only to witness and legitimize the union. It was only in the eleventh century (IIRC) that church marriage was required for all marriages. Prior to that, church marriage was usually only for the rich and powerful for the purpose of consolidating wealth and power.

The historical CHRISTIAN approach is that it is a union before the eyes of GOD between a man and a woman

 

[RaymondG]

Actually, Jesus did condemn sin...quite often. It was kind of a central theme for Him.

Also, He forgave repentant people and told them to sin no more. There is nothing in this lady's statement to indicate she has changed her position of supporting willful sin. As a matter of fact, she seems to double down on the idea.

Jesus condemned the lawyers and the interpreters of the Scripture.....The ones saying what was right and wrong in the eyes of God. ;-)

The bible never said the adulterer was repentant, that would be something added by the interpreters of the scriptures. ;-)

And who would not be repentant in the middle of a firing quad? Would you not say whatever you had to to get out? but not, the religious would not even give the sinner the chance to say anything or repent of anything...they see, condemn with scripture, and throw the stones.

Only Christ would think to even talk to them. The ones we look down on and excommunicate ;-)

Your learning stops, when you have realized you know everything already.

 

[com7fy8]

But remember, you will be held accountable for even your thoughts.

Thank you for the reminder, even if I don't accept a number of things you are saying

About your issues about wedding expense and other concerns . . . if we go the wrong way, there can be consequences which we do not deserve. Right from wrong is not for sale, not dictated by how much money someone has spent for what one wants.

The minister made himself clear, it appears, in some number of sermons before that counseling session. If she really was investing in understanding his message and really getting to know him and his church, she had ample opportunity to know where he stands, long before she started to make any wedding plans. And her arguments show she is intelligent enough to understand what a preacher means, about what he says about this issue; so it is likely . . . either she was not ever really caring to pay attention to things he has preached, or she just ignored them.

We find the issue to be a big deal, not some small thing for someone to openly or privately differ from. As you yourself just said, what we think is a big deal to God. So, it is not relevant, whether she privately to one person or very publicly shared what she did.

It is interesting that you have helped me remember that what I even just think is so accountable to God, and then you have said what she says on Facebook rather privately is not a big matter. But . . . was it really a private statement? Facebook accounts can have quite a number and variety of readers . . . enough so it got the attention of the pastor. Ones getting ready for a wedding can become quite the ringleaders of attention, as they talk about things; and then was when she even brought that issue up, not about the wedding. So, I can't say it was a very private communication, going from that. And in case she is into activism, she might have deliberately done that, knowing she would get a lot of attention.

But you answered for me, by saying what we even think is a big deal, with God Himself. And I agree with this, for myself . . . and for her.

By the way - - - what is really going on inside of us is what we can be spreading spiritually to help to make others the same way . . . including our children . . . in their character. We do spread the effect of how we are and our ways, spiritually, even though we might cover up with our acting nice and loyal and civil.

So, what is really in a person is very significant. It can be like how tuberculosis germs can spread through the air, to infect others. You can look and act healthy, while even your laughing can propel your TB germs into the air. Like this, even if someone might be getting everybody laughing, there can be deeper things going on, and spreading > our Apostle Paul does say >

"A little leaven leavens the whole lump." (Galatians 5:9)

"'Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.'" (John 7:24)

 

[miknik5]

Jesus condemned the lawyers and the interpreters of the Scripture.....The ones saying what was right and wrong in the eyes of God. ;-)

The bible never said the adulterer was repentant, that would be something added by the interpreters of the scriptures. ;-)

And who would not be repentant in the middle of a firing quad? Would you not say whatever you had to to get out? but not, the religious would not even give the sinner the chance to say anything or repent of anything...they see, condemn with scripture, and throw the stones.

Only Christ would think to even talk to them. The ones we look down on and excommunicate ;-)

Your learning stops, when you have realized you know everything already.

HE said first to them that the one without sin should be the first to cast the stone. The religious knew who HE was, they just didn't want to listen to HIM. They brought up the law of Moses regarding adultery but when HE gave them time to think about their own state, that they were not innocent and had hidden sin, instead of embracing HIM
as the one who forgives sin, they went away. Showing their whole agenda was more to trap HIM regarding a law which they themselves did not keep

As to the woman,
HE told her to go and sin no more

 

[kepha31]

Same-sex "marriages" is a threat to society....there, I said it...., burn me at the stake beside the Presbyterian minister.

Homosexual activists aim to ‘destroy the family’, impose ‘totalitarianism'

 

[RaymondG]

Ok, so you do understand what I mean. Thank you I am not going only by what I think. I have read different things in the Bible, and I have experience of things, which I understand are now not allowed for me to get into, because of Christian Forums rules.

Whoever is right, there are counterfeits galore to the contrary; this is how Satan's kingdom works > mix things up, make it look as though it is impossible to get things straight. You could add how there are scholars of the Bible who do not agree on this. But always Satan comes up with things to try to pick apart whatever is right. How we are becoming in ourselves is one measure of if we are really getting all which God considers to be right.

There is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience," our Apostle Paul does say in Ephesians 2:2. While we are into what God's love has us feeling and believing and doing, He shares His own peace with us in His own kindness with joy. But in what is wrong, the evil spirit of disobedience is messing us with the domination and dictation of lusts and nasty and raging anger and unforgiveness and boredom and loneliness and shame and guilt and fear and anxiety, which people are reaping, more and more if they are investing in what is wrong > Galatians 6:7-8. So, right in our own selves, we can tell if we are going the right way or not.

So, part of where I am coming from is, what I have actually observed in my own self and others, and what the Bible says about it.

By the way, Jesus to me is clear how we should not be surprised, at all, if we are right and we are rejected . . . and even killed for His name. He says to rejoice that we are suffering because of honoring and obeying Jesus. But yes some number of people claiming to be Christians are so bent out of shape and hurt about being rejected for standing for holy matrimony . . . while others for same-sex marriage are very upset about not being accepted by basic Bible people.

But Jesus says if you are really right, I consider He means, then God is giving you joy and you are sure He accepts and even honors you, no matter how Satanic people make things look and treat you

Why would God accept you, if you willingly reject the least of His? You feel that you are God's Child but they are not? You feel better than them because they don't have the same beliefs as you? Do you pray that you are glad you are not like the sinners over there?

We aren't talking about gay people and gay marriage here, no matter how you try to make it about that. We are talking about treating people differently because of what they think and believe. denying services because we believe they support a cause we don't. We should be able to replace gay marriage with anything : remarriage, support of liars, support of fornicators, support of judgers. They should all be treated the same. none better or worse than the other.

To the blind, everyone else cant see. To the deceived, everyone else is deceived. But they are not wrong.....Just deceived and blind.....They are doing and saying what they truly believe in their heart, just like you, me, the minister, and the couple.

Only those who refuse to consider the beams in their own eye will be lost.....walking blindly to the pit that they cant see.

Maybe the couple is blind, maybe you are, maybe I am......But I have hope because of the fact that I am willing to consider myself...as opposed to just quoting Eph 2:2 and assuming it applies to everyone who doesn't do, think and believe what I do.....

 

[RaymondG]

and then you have said what she says on Facebook rather privately is not a big matter.

Ok, I thought you were a person of honor.....was I wrong? When did I make this statement...can you show me? Or was this your interpretation of the words you read?

Anyway, I'll say the only thing you are willing to hear and agree with: "You are right"

Have a nice day.

 

[JackRT]

well it looks like you have been given over to a debased mind and are under the wrath of God that his word is upon those who practice and approve of those things. You espouse the lie and if you look at the history of the change which you call progress it falls directly under the teachings of Anton Lavey who wrote the Satanic Bible who promoted the celebration of carnality as normal and natural and wanted to rid the world of the repression of Christianity. Lavey said TV and movies would be used to bring about this change and called them Satanic alters in every home. No one can serve two masters and your ideas are espoused by Luciferians and my doctrine comes from scripture.

It would seem that my understanding of Christianity is somewhat different than yours. So be it.

 

[com7fy8]

Why would God accept you, if you willingly reject the least of His?

Our Apostle Paul is very clear how certain people need to be removed because they are a bad influence. They are first given attention and offered correction; but if they refuse, they need to be put away. An example of this is in 1 Corinthians 5.

And in case they repent, they may be restored, as happened in the case Paul is talking about > 2 Corinthians 2.

Jesus means not to reject one of His least who is obeying Him, not one who is rebelling and spreading what is wrong. We are really rejecting what is wrong, and a person can choose not to stay with what is rejected. They can turn from it so they are not staying in the rejection zone where it is.

We will spend eternity with what is in us, wherever it is going. So, it is so important to have the right things in us so we go where God's good things will take us.

 

[RaymondG]

HE said first to them that the one without sin should be the first to cast the stone. The religious knew who HE was, they just didn't want to listen to HIM. They brought up the law of Moses regarding adultery but when HE gave them time to think about their own state, that they were not innocent and had hidden sin, instead of embracing HIM
as the one who forgives sin, they went away. Showing their whole agenda was more to trap HIM regarding a law which they themselves did not keep

As to the woman,
HE told her to go and sin no more

If they knew Him, they would not have Crucified our Lord. They were blinded by their interpretations of scripture, just like many of us are. Think about it....If Jesus came to your house today looking opposite of what you think he should; preaching an interpretation different from what you preach vehemently on this forum, wouldn't you do the same as them? wouldnt you trade post for post to try to catch him in lies? call him a blasphemer? Tell him he was supposed to come in the sky on a horse, not in rags at my front door? Have we done this already?