Presbyterian Minister Cancelled Wedding After Bride Declared Support for Same-Sex Marriage

[redleghunter]

Catechism?

Canons, or church law is not a catechistic revision.

The only traditional document held by all Anglican denomination is the 39 Articles, and only in Article 25 is marriage mentioned:

XXV. Of the Sacraments.

Sacraments ordained of Christ be not only badges or tokens of Christian men's profession,
but rather they be certain sure witnesses, and effectual signs of grace, and God's good will
towards us, by the which he doth work invisibly in us, and doth not only quicken, but also
strengthen and confirm our Faith in him.

There are two Sacraments ordained of Christ our Lord in the Gospel, that is to say,
Baptism, and the Supper of the Lord.

Those five commonly called Sacraments, that is to say, Confirmation, Penance, Orders,
Matrimony, and Extreme Unction, are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel,
being such as have grown partly of the corrupt following of the Apostles, partly are states of
life allowed in the Scriptures; but yet have not like nature of Sacraments with Baptism, and
the Lord's Supper, for that they have not any visible sign or ceremony ordained of God.

The Sacraments are not ordained of Christ to be gazed upon, or to be carried about, but
that we should duly use them. And in such only as worthily receive the same, they have a
wholesome effect or operation: but they that receive them unworthily, purchase to
themselves damnation, as Saint Paul saith.

The canons are basic teachings. The catechism explains or exegetes the Scriptures supporting the canon or doctrine. That's how the Roman Catholics, Reformed and Lutheran seem to do. Although the reformed called them confessions.

For example, the Anglican Church of North America defines marriage as the following:

Jesus Christ teaches that God is the author of marriage from the beginning of time (Matthew 19:4-6). God’s design for marriage has always involved a man and a woman: “a man shall leave his father and his mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh” (Genesis 2:24). These truths have ordered civilization for thousands of years. Where God’s designs are followed in any society, including his designs for marriage and families, the result is the greatest possible blessing and abundance of life.

The Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is often summarized as, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Because of his love, we love and care for all those who experience same-sex attraction. The Anglican Church in North America continues to welcome everyone to experience the transforming love of Jesus Christ.

Marriage is established by God for the procreation and raising of children and for the good of society. For this reason, governments have an interest in marriage and have delegated authority from God to protect and regulate it. But no court, no legislature and no local magistrate has the authority to redefine marriage and to impose this definition on their citizens.

Anglican Church in North America

Also from the Book of Common Prayer your church looks to for doctrinal practice:


The Celebration and
Blessing of a Marriage
At the time appointed, the persons to be married, with their witnesses,
assemble in the church or some other appropriate place.
During their entrance, a hymn, psalm, or anthem may be sung,
or instrumental music may be played. Then the Celebrant, facing the people and the persons to be married, with the woman to the right and the man to the left, addresses the congregation and says Dearly beloved: We have come together in the presence of God to witness and bless the joining together of this man and
this woman in Holy Matrimony. The bond and covenant of marriage was established by God in creation, and our Lord Jesus Christ adorned this manner of life by his presence and first miracle at a wedding in Cana of Galilee. It signifies to us
the mystery of the union between Christ and his Church, and Holy Scripture commends it to be honored among all people. The union of husband and wife in heart, body, and mind is intended by God for their mutual joy; for the help and comfort given one another in prosperity and adversity; and, when it is God’s will, for the procreation of children and their nurture in the knowledge and love of the Lord. Therefore marriage is not to be entered into unadvisedly or lightly, but reverently,
deliberately, and in accordance with the purposes for which it was instituted by God.

 

[redleghunter]

How bout in actual practice?

Who is applying Mosaic law?

 

[Sola1517]

A Minister of a Presbyterian church in Australia cancelled the wedding of a couple after the bride-to-be declared on Facebook that she supported same-sex marriage:

Church cancels wedding because bride and groom supported gay marriage on Facebook

These are the minister's reasons:

"After the pre-marital counselling that you attended and the sermons delivered at Ebenezer on this subject, you must surely appreciate that your commitment to same-sex marriage opposes the teaching of Christ Jesus and the scriptural position practiced by the Presbyterian Church of Australia and by me,"

"This conflict of views has practical consequences in relation to your upcoming wedding.

"By continuing to officiate it would appear either that I support your views on same-sex marriage or that I am uncaring about this matter. As you know, neither statement is correct.

"Also, if the wedding proceeded in the Ebenezer St John's church buildings, the same inferences could be drawn about the Presbyterian denomination. Such inferences would be wrong."​

These are the couple's responses:

"We feel this decision is absolutely disgraceful and is a disgrace to you and all the church, especially when we have been loyal and valued members of this congregation for 10 years,"

"You were made aware from the beginning of our proceedings that we had gay friends and also that people in our wedding party were gay. How could you assume that we would abandon them or degrade them with regards to same-sex marriage?

"We understand we did agree with the teachings of the church in our marriage counselling but just because we agree with that for our own lives, doesn't mean that we have to push those beliefs onto others."​

What do you think? Whose reasons do you think are more valid to support their decision? The church minister or the couple? Why?


EDIT: Letter added below

Malcolm Turnbull defends right of church to refuse to marry couples who support gay marriage

Well, at least he was kind enough to pass on the paperwork.

 

[hedrick]

What happens when a new confession is in tension with an older confession? What supreme transcendent standard do you use to test the teachings in tension?

Please remember that our confessions aren't used as legal documents, so a clear answer isn't actually needed. But it should be pretty obvious that recent confessions reflect our current beliefs.

If you look at how our confessions and other documents are formed, the most important element is Scripture. In the case of gay marriage, however, there have been no relevant changes to confessions. (Some have suggested that a phrase in Belhar mandates acceptance of gays, but I think that's reaching.) I suspect there will be mention in a confession eventually. We don't issue a new confession every time a policy changes. However our approach to gay-related issues is based on the the Confession of 1967.

 

[JoeP222w]

Anyone who calls a sin (in this case homosexuality) to be a righteous act, is just as guilty of that sin. And if they do not repent of their support of the sin of homosexuality, they are to be under church discipline.

Warning someone of the sin that they are in is not "pushing" your beliefs on others. This couple that wants to get married is completely in the wrong.

 

[hedrick]

Warning someone of the sin that they are in is not "pushing" your beliefs on others. This couple that wants to get married is completely in the wrong.

Remember, this isn't a gay couple. The issue isn't that they are in sin but that they hold a belief contrary to the church's. In their church that's still a problem, but a different one.

 

[redleghunter]

Yes, I have seen the word "love" overly misused by many. It's worthwhile trying to understand what biblical "love" actually means:

does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth (1 Corinthians 13:6 NKJV)

Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. (Romans 12:9 NKJV)

Glad you brought that up and provided the relevant scriptures.

The "love" many argue from is a post-modern love unseen in the words of God.

"Love" in our western post-modern is relative, in the eyes of the beholder and subjective. This is alien to the Inspired Holy Scriptures as taught by Jesus and His apostles.

When Christian churches say "all are welcome" they should be clear this means all are welcome to come and hear the Gospel of Christ crucified, died, Risen, ascended into Heaven and will return (1 Corinthians 15; Luke 24).

And by God's Grace be forgiven and healed of our sins. Not accept sin into the Gospel and statement of faith.

 

[redleghunter]

I assume that yes. Clergy do not accept same sex marriage

Depends on the denomination. Some do perform SSM or support civil unions. Some will "bless" the civil union.

There is a huge debate among the various Anglican churches and Presbyterians split over SSM. Most PCUSA accepting SSM and PCA keeping orthodox Biblical and historic Christian stance.

Things were becoming chaotic within Evangelical churches which prompted the Nashville Statement on traditional marriage.

 

[redleghunter]

He also missed the boat on slavery.

He didn't . Philemon shows he did not as he appealed to a Christian brother to treat another Christian brother run away slave in Christian love.

Paul harboring a run away slave was inspiration for the American Christian Abolitionist movement.

Paul also faced the death penalty in accordance with Roman law for harboring a run away slave.

The NT writers were indeed more concerned with telling people how to break the chains of slavery to sin and death.

Good topic for another thread as the post I responded to is off topic. So we can converse on this elsewhere.

God Bless

 

[hedrick]

I've spent a few minutes trying to find out how many gay marriages happen in church. I haven't found it. I did find some interesting information though. One is that about 60% of gays who live together are married. The other (from a survey by Lifeway, which is certainly not a liberal source) says that 1/3 of Protestant pastors allow gays to fully participate in church, including leadership roles. (The number for mainline churches is only 1/2, so there's actually not as much difference between "liberal" churches and others as I would have expected.) That does not mean that they will perform gay marriage, though. About half of gays are Christian. You'd think they would want their marriage to be in church, but I haven't seen anything verifying that.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

And the thread deviates so far off course cause the fundies come out to get bent out of shape. How unsurprising.

Yeah, pretty much. And personally speaking, I'm relieved that I no longer have that kind of attitude anymore after reading some of the comments supporting the minister. I know I was wrong to be so judgmental of homosexuals and other LGBT. But sadly, that was the result of me being raised in a strictly conservative evangelical Christian home. However, I corrected this misfortunate mistake and vowed never to raise my own children to be like that and I'm very grateful they are not. Before I close, let me reiterate with this clear disclaimer: I'm speaking from my own personal experience of being raised in a strictly conservative evangelical home and I don't know if it's exactly the same in every other conservative evangelical home, therefore, I'm not insinuating in the least that it is.

 

[redleghunter]

Yeah, pretty much. And personally speaking, I'm relieved that I no longer have that kind of attitude anymore after reading some of the comments supporting the minister. I know I was wrong to be so judgmental of homosexuals and other LGBT. But sadly, that was the result of me being raised in a strictly conservative evangelical Christian home. However, I corrected this misfortunate mistake and vowed never to raise my own children to be like that and I'm very grateful they are not. Before I close, let me reiterate with this clear disclaimer: I'm speaking from my own personal experience of being raised in a strictly conservative evangelical home and I don't know if it's exactly the same in every other conservative evangelical home, therefore, I'm not insinuating in the least that it is.

Was the minister wrong for standing with Biblical truth?

We've all danced around this by using "Conservative Presbyterian church" and "church doctrine" when what he defended was Biblical truth on God's design for marriage.

 

[JoeP222w]

Remember, this isn't a gay couple. The issue isn't that they are in sin but that they hold a belief contrary to the church's. In their church that's still a problem, but a different one.

They hold a belief (that homosexuality is ok) that is contrary to the Bible (which is the word of God), not merely their church.

 

[hedrick]

Was the minister wrong for standing with Biblical truth?

We've all danced around this by using "Conservative Presbyterian church" and "church doctrine" when what he defended was Biblical truth on God's design for marriage.

In this forum one can't debate whether gay sex is OK. So the issue has been whether deviations from what the pastor and church consider the Biblical position should cause them to deny marriage. Many churches have a position, but permit people to disagree with it. The only thing we can discuss here, and the one that appeared in the OP, is whether it was right to deny marriage to someone who disagrees.

 

[redleghunter]

In this forum one can't debate whether gay sex is OK. So the issue has been whether deviations from what the pastor and church consider the Biblical position should cause them to deny marriage. Many churches have a position, but permit people to disagree with it. The only thing we can discuss here, and the one that appeared in the OP, is whether it was right to deny marriage to someone who disagrees.

I didn't introduce the term "gay sex." You did.

I pointed out the minister was not only defending church doctrine but Biblical truth on marriage.

 

[hedrick]

I didn't introduce the term "gay sex." You did.

I pointed out the minister was not only defending church doctrine but Biblical truth on marriage.

Whether it's Biblical truth is something we can't talk about. Many participants in this discussion don't think so.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread is closed for staff review.

 

[Hammster]

ADMIN HAT ON



Closed permanently. Too many reports, and I think it's run its course.


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