Jesus Held to Sola Scriptura

[redleghunter]

To expect a person to read the Bible (in tbe flesh) as a cohesive whole, with a full understanding of the subleties and undertones is also to greater burden to place on most.

Or to read the Bible in a worldly manner also causes horrible consequences like Christians still believing witches are to be burned, people should be stoned to death for certain sins, etc.

 

[redleghunter]

You realize Rome claims to get it's authority from scripture right? Or uses scripture to SUPPORT their claim of authority.

Yes but for Rome, Holy Scriptures are her servant and not master.

 

[redleghunter]

That is the point made for all denominations. They legitimize their statement of beliefs through scripture. Yet when confronted with the truth, that scripture is the bench mark test, many proceed to deny the ultimate authority of scripture.

Could it be a form of plagiarism at play?

Possibly!

Because if a statement of belief is derived from Sola Scripture, yet the one using it does not acknowledge it as the primary source, then we note that the intellectual property of the authors of scripture are being used in a way as to imply the religious institution is the author in place of the original authors and that in my books is plagiarism.

It's the age old juggling act of eisegesis at work in statements of faith and catechisms.

Make a statement and find a Bible verse to shoehorn it in. Eisegesis at its worst.

But as you note we should be applying exegesis to present to the faithful 'this is why we believe what we do.' Now creeds do that well.

 

[redleghunter]

The static dead letters of Moses have no application anymore, rather as Paul states the new way to apply them is through the sanctified vessels of Christ.

 

[rjs330]

I have to say, you are a perfect example of people have come accross who say they follow sola scripture.
This is what Paul means when he says you must die to the law:

Christ is the end if the law UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS for everyone who believeth
Rom10:4

Stuart, you misunderstand sola scritpura or at least seem to. Sola Scriptura does not mean that we must follow the OT covenants and it does not have anything to do with obedience or disobedience to scripture. It has nothing to do with legalism or sinless perfection. It has to do with Scripture being the ultimate authority. We cannot teach anything that does not agree with scripture. If I say you are required to do something, but scripture is silent on that then you are not really required to do said thing because that requirement is not supported by the authority of scripture. Whether I obey the commands of Christ has nothing to do with the validity of sola scriptura.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Yes but you missed the important part. One has mention of the source---the seed---and that seed cannot sin because it is from God and we are born from above from God.

We will agree to disagree.

OK:
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not. Whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him
1john3:6

If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us
1john1:8

So which of the literal statements are correct?
No mention of born of God in either of them

 

[stuart lawrence]

Stuart, you misunderstand sola scritpura or at least seem to. Sola Scriptura does not mean that we must follow the OT covenants and it does not have anything to do with obedience or disobedience to scripture. It has nothing to do with legalism or sinless perfection. It has to do with Scripture being the ultimate authority. We cannot teach anything that does not agree with scripture. If I say you are required to do something, but scripture is silent on that then you are not really required to do said thing because that requirement is not supported by the authority of scripture. Whether I obey the commands of Christ has nothing to do with the validity of sola scriptura.

The poster I responded to says he follows sola scripture, and according to sola scripture we must follow the letter of the law. The inference was that is our righteousness. The letter kills 2cor3:6
I have been to churches which stress the letter of the Bible is paramount. These Churche's, in effect preach the letter, not the heart of the message contained in it. I did say most in my post, not all.

Please read the posts of the person I responded to with the post you replied to. They certainly do bear out what I have found to be the case in my experience

 

[stuart lawrence]

The application and enforcement of the Law was not just. That is what Jesus speaks of and why He stopped the mob from stoning the adulterous woman.

Remember YHWH always demanded: "Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another." (Zechariah 7:9)

They quoted the letter of the law. It was all they understood. Jesus said the higher points of the law were mercy, justice and faithfulness. But none of the 613 laws actually stated:
Thou shalt be merciful
Thou shalt be faithfull
Thou shalt show justice

So it was ignored. By preaching the letter if the law, they neglected the love of God, it was just cold, hard religion.
And, as no one can obey the letter of the law, for, the letter kills, they were full of hypocrisy concerning this

 

[stuart lawrence]

Stuart, you misunderstand sola scritpura or at least seem to. Sola Scriptura does not mean that we must follow the OT covenants and it does not have anything to do with obedience or disobedience to scripture. It has nothing to do with legalism or sinless perfection. It has to do with Scripture being the ultimate authority. We cannot teach anything that does not agree with scripture. If I say you are required to do something, but scripture is silent on that then you are not really required to do said thing because that requirement is not supported by the authority of scripture. Whether I obey the commands of Christ has nothing to do with the validity of sola scriptura.

You say:
It( sola scripture) has to do with scripture being the ultimate authority. We cannot teach anything that does not agree with scripture.

Question

What did Paul mean by dying to the law

Answer

It means to die for the testimony of Jesus and where do you find the biographical account of Jesus?
Who said all scripture testifies of me?
Sola scripture is the law and the prophets

Do you agree with the above answer?
Does it explain correctly what Paul stated in scripture concerning dying to the law?

 

[The Times]

We will agree to disagree.

OK:
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not. Whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him
1john3:6

If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us
1john1:8

So which of the literal statements are correct?
No mention of born of God in either of them

I need to reply, since you use scripture to try and justify your position.

Where is the context, when you try to rip two versus completely out of context?

1 John 3.6 context below.....
The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

The above is for a born again believer, which is clear as daylight to understand the context, right?

1 John 1 context below.....

6If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

The importance of statements above TOWARDS UNDERSTANDING the CONTEXT, that are coupled with conditional if statements, is that it requires acknowledgement of sins, rather than the concealing of sins.

What does today's wayward message been given by those who conform to the trending ways of the world?

They conceal the sins of the world and report as if sin does not exist and that refraining from sin is not the important message. Yet confession or acknowledgment of sin according to John, must be done for repentance to occur and a repeat of sin to be abolished. The context teaches the law of the heart through Sola scripture in a way, that rebukes Christians from pretending that everything is alright, that the sins don't need to be acknowledged before the Holy God, who does away with them, by the power of the cross of his only begotten Son.

The context of those two versus are completely different, like heaven is to earth.

 

[The Times]

The poster I responded to says he follows sola scripture, and according to sola scripture we must follow the letter of the law. The inference was that is our righteousness. The letter kills 2cor3:6
I have been to churches which stress the letter of the Bible is paramount. These Churche's, in effect preach the letter, not the heart of the message contained in it. I did say most in my post, not all.

Please read the posts of the person I responded to with the post you replied to. They certainly do bear out what I have found to be the case in my experience

The heart of the message is still the law, that is Sola Scripture, but applied through the heart of flesh, rather than the letter of the law. The application according to Jesus and Paul has greater consequences, because even lusting after a woman in the heart is counted as adultery. Paul calls it the new way of the heart for the New Testament, that does away with the dead and static letters of the Mosaic law. However the law which Scripture, must be internalised in the heart of flesh, in a way that thoughts even matter to the question of sinning. New testament believers are not getting off lightly, in fact the application of the law is being more stringently applied than ever before.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Stuart, you misunderstand sola scritpura or at least seem to. Sola Scriptura does not mean that we must follow the OT covenants and it does not have anything to do with obedience or disobedience to scripture. It has nothing to do with legalism or sinless perfection. It has to do with Scripture being the ultimate authority. We cannot teach anything that does not agree with scripture. If I say you are required to do something, but scripture is silent on that then you are not really required to do said thing because that requirement is not supported by the authority of scripture. Whether I obey the commands of Christ has nothing to do with the validity of sola scriptura.

I will make one more point, then leave it at that unless you want to continue.

I quote rom7:4-6 to someone and they reply:

If one sees sin and immorality they must reject it by the letter of the law, that is sola scripture. If one does not righteously judge the world by sola scripture then that individual has fallen away from the faith once given to the saints.

That response to rom7:4-6 tells me the responder does not understand Pauls message. That and some other comments made.
Maybe I am not explaining myself well here.
Those who most earnestly stress the infallibility of the letter, tend not to understand the true message contained in the letter
The responder only seemed to want to speak of the necessity to obey the law and the consequences of not obeying it. Though it may sound wonderful to some, in my view, it endorses my belief, based on my own personal experiences.
I'm sorry, but when I followed this kind of message I ended up as Paul described Saul the pharisee in rom 7:7-11
The most lethal churches in my view are those who preach the letter of obedience without understanding the true message of grace, and preaching it alongside what they do preach. For:
The power of sin is the law 1cor15:56
I know Christian counsellors who spend much time trying to help people who's lives got badly messed up because they went to such churches.
Indeed, looking back now to when I went to such a church that basically preached the same message, I could quote rom7:7-11, word for word as my own personal experience( KJV)
For i had tried to attain heaven as Saul the pharisee tried to attain it.
I honestly haven't meant to be offensive in any way. But I simply would like to better explain my feelings on this

 

[The Times]

They quoted the letter of the law. It was all they understood. Jesus said the higher points of the law were mercy, justice and faithfulness. But none of the 613 laws actually stated:
Thou shalt be merciful
Thou shalt be faithfull
Thou shalt show justice

So it was ignored. By preaching the letter if the law, they neglected the love of God, it was just cold, hard religion.
And, as no one can obey the letter of the law, for, the letter kills, they were full of hypocrisy concerning this

The world that we live in is not all roses friend. If a person continues to lust and have evil thoughts towards their brothers and sisters, they cannot claim to the law of mercy, justice and faithfulness, because as 1 John 1 states, they conceal their sins as if nothing they do is wrong and everything they do is acceptable, within a subjective moral based society.

For mercy to be applied, a sinner must acknowledge their sins before God, rather than concealing them. Then repentance must occur through the blood, which prevents the repeat of sin, otherwise faithfulness is absent from the picture of salvation. Finally justice can only be granted to those who by faith acknowledge their sins and repent of their sins. No repeat offenders can claim to want justice, if they are in flagrant denial of their lawlessness.

As Jesus said.....

14“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give youa this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Jesus gives his Church Sola Scripture and many today are rejecting it, because it exposes their lying lives.

Today many preach another gospel, a worldly gospel of love, based on subjective moral law, that has no obligation to the Sola Scripture application of the law in the heart of flesh. They conceal the sins of the world and conform to the trending ways of the world and for that matter, they say......

Hard religion is not for us, because it is perceived as cold and not inclusive of worldly sins.

The above statement is a general statement.

The blood of Jesus does not cleanse those who continue in sin, as if they do not sin, just like the context below.....

8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:8-10)

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Total nonsense.

Well argued.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

You realize Rome claims to get it's authority from scripture right? Or uses scripture to SUPPORT their claim of authority.

Which is irony of ironies.

 

[chilehed]

Well argued.

There's no point in responding at length to someone who makes things up out of his own overly fertile imagination.

 

[stuart lawrence]

The heart of the message is still the law, that is Sola Scripture, but applied through the heart of flesh, rather than the letter of the law. The application according to Jesus and Paul has greater consequences, because even lusting after a woman in the heart is counted as adultery. Paul calls it the new way of the heart for the New Testament, that does away with the dead and static letters of the Mosaic law. However the law which Scripture, must be internalised in the heart of flesh, in a way that thoughts even matter to the question of sinning. New testament believers are not getting off lightly, in fact the application of the law is being more stringently applied than ever before.

You don't understand the message of the person who wrote half the books of the NT

 

[stuart lawrence]

The world that we live in is not all roses friend. If a person continues to lust and have evil thoughts towards their brothers and sisters, they cannot claim to the law of mercy, justice and faithfulness, because as 1 John 1 states, they conceal their sins as if nothing they do is wrong and everything they do is acceptable, within a subjective moral based society.

For mercy to be applied, a sinner must acknowledge their sins before God, rather than concealing them. Then repentance must occur through the blood, which prevents the repeat of sin, otherwise faithfulness is absent from the picture of salvation. Finally justice can only be granted to those who by faith acknowledge their sins and repent of their sins. No repeat offenders can claim to want justice, if they are in flagrant denial of their lawlessness.

As Jesus said.....

14“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give youa this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Jesus gives his Church Sola Scripture and many today are rejecting it, because it exposes their lying lives.

Today many preach another gospel, a worldly gospel of love, based on subjective moral law, that has no obligation to the Sola Scripture application of the law in the heart of flesh. They conceal the sins of the world and conform to the trending ways of the world and for that matter, they say......

Hard religion is not for us, because it is perceived as cold and not inclusive of worldly sins.

The above statement is a general statement.

The blood of Jesus does not cleanse those who continue in sin, as if they do not sin, just like the context below.....

8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:8-10)

Explain scripture, don't just quote it

Why is the power of sin the law?
1cor15:56

Why are sinfull passions aroused in people by the law if they live under it?
Rom7:5

 

[Steve Petersen]

Jesus endorsed tithing of dill, mint and cumin (Matthew 23:23.) This is a rabbinic enactment.

The tithing of herbs is from the rabbins. Yoma 83b

 

[jimmyjimmy]

There's no point in responding at length to someone who makes things up out of his own overly fertile imagination.

Precisely: Ignore list.