How Do Calvinists Explain These Verses in the Story of Jonah?

[Hammster]

Let's get back to the Story of Jonah and how that works in the world of Calvinism.

I've noticed you only do that when it's convenient.

 

[ClementofA]

The problem you should have with Calvinism is that God only saves a few (based on no conditions whatsoever) when He has the power to save them all. This would be wrong or immoral of God to do this because God desires the ultimate good for His creation.

True, except i would think Calvinists believe the Scriptures that God will save "many" (Rom.5:19), and not, as you said, "only a few". And that they would believe Christ will save all those He ransomed, which Jesus says is "many", not just a "few". Though Paul says He ransomed "all".

But at least Calvinism says "many" get saved, which is the exact same number that get saved in Libertarian Freewillism. So in the end, there is no real difference, is there?

Though in Libertarian Freewillism, how would God know if even one person would be saved? How can He know Libertarian Freewill choices in advance? Maybe no one would get saved, so Calvinism's God gets more saved than in your view.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

But we are not animals. We were made in God's image and God gave us free will so that true love can exist within his creation. True love is when two parties both agree to love each other of their own free will choice. Animals do not techincally have any reasoning to know about right and wrong like humans do. They may appear to know about morality sometimes, but it is not something that governs animals as a whole like humans.

Animals prove that God's creatures can make choices but not have free will. So just because Scripture talks about human choices does not prove humans have freewill.

You need to come up with some better arguments, instead of just injecting your assumptions into the Scriptures. Again i recommend you read this article very carefully & prayerfully, several times over, with an open mind that you may not have all the answers or be wrong about some things:

http://www.pilkingtonandsons.com/art_zender_absolute.pdf

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I've noticed you only do that when it's convenient.

Not at all. I have answered plenty of questions that are a diversion from the thread topic. If somebody really wants me to answer something off topic, then they can start another thread and redirect me there to answer it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Animals prove that God's creatures can make choices but not have free will. So just because Scripture talks about human choices does not prove humans have freewill.

You need to come up with some better arguments, instead of just injecting your assumptions into the Scriptures. Again i recommend you read this article very carefully & prayerfully, several times over, with an open mind that you may not have all the answers or be wrong about some things:

http://www.pilkingtonandsons.com/art_zender_absolute.pdf

Free will is biblical. I already addressed this point. See my post here within this thread.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

True, except i would think Calvinists believe the Scriptures that God will save "many" (Rom.5:19), and not, as you said, "only a few". And that they would believe Christ will save all those He ransomed, which Jesus says is "many", not just a "few". Though Paul says He ransomed "all".

But at least Calvinism says "many" get saved, which is the exact same number that get saved in Libertarian Freewillism. So in the end, there is no real difference, is there?

Though in Libertarian Freewillism, how would God know if even one person would be saved? How can He know Libertarian Freewill choices in advance? Maybe no one would get saved, so Calvinism's God gets more saved than in your view.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

This is not the topic of the thread. But for your information, try looking up Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Post edit.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I've noticed you only do that when it's convenient.

Not at all.

I replied to his post here in this thread:

Did God unconditionally damn Pharoah for eternal punishment?

I am happy to do that for anyone else's point that they might raise.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Let's try getting back to the topic of the thread please.

 

[ClementofA]

Free will is biblical. I already addressed this point. See my post here within this thread.

From your post:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

Again, animals can choose, but have no libertarian freewill. So this does not support your conclusion that humans have libertarian freewill.

 

[ClementofA]

This is not the topic of the thread. But for your information, try looking up Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement.

Your purpose of this thread & you're purpose in some others is your desire to expose Calvinism on these exact points & that you think your view is superior to Calvinism in these regards:

But at least Calvinism says "many" get saved, which is the exact same number that get saved in Libertarian Freewillism. So in the end, there is no real difference, is there?

Though in Libertarian Freewillism, how would God know if even one person would be saved? How can He know Libertarian Freewill choices in advance? Maybe no one would get saved, so Calvinism's God gets more saved than in your view.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[mike buckman]

The point is that if Calvinism was true, then there would have been no need to make any threats so as to get the Ninevites to repent. In addition, in Matthew 12:41, Jesus essentially says that the Ninevites will rise up in judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. It sounds like they are taking the credit for their repentance because they are rising up to judge this generation for something they are not doing. So repentance is not some kind of miracle event that is given to a person by God when He feels like it.


...

your logic is based in the worldly and the only information that you have. God interacts with man. This interaction is for our benefit and in ways that we can understand. He interacts differently to different people as well, based on their level of knowledge, but he has a baseline interaction with mankind as a whole.

Choice and predestination walk hand in hand without conflict. both are true simultaneously. To think that such things are mutually exclusive is where ignorance comes in. Any logical argument based on the assumption that the two are mutually exclusive, while seeming logical, is not logical at all.

Read first Ephesians. Also, consider how king Herods choices played directly into Gods Prophetic hands.

If the Ninevites would have repented anyway, so therefore Jonah didnt need to preach is an invalid point as this was Gods whole teaching to man, for Jonah to do it and for him and us to learn from it. Also, if I take your logic to the extreme, there is no point for man to do anything at all, because its already written in stone what would happen. The fact is that we are called to do things by God. Not for Gods benefit, but for ours. We are the ones learning and he allows us to help one another along the way. God wants us to do this by choice. Each choice leading us directly into our predestination, one way or another.

 

[mike buckman]

One way to look at Salvation as far as Calvanism goes (in order to understand it) is this:

Your Salvation is already complete and it already was before you were born. While you were on this earth, your spirit was simultaneously in Glory. It never really departed. You were created by God in the heavenly. This is where you were, are and will be.

Eternity is outside of time as we know it. Here on earth we experience this linear and limited form of time, but time isnt the same in the heavenly. We step outside of it once we leave this plane, and before we enter it. Past present and future are all known at once. They are all contained as one in eternity.

You, if you have salvation will go back to heaven, because that is where you are from, that is where you are going, and in the ultimate sense of reality, that is where your spirit is now.

 

[mike buckman]

That is exactly why salvation is not, nor can it be a choice. There are many reasons behind it. One is "So that no man may boast." Ultimately, God is sovereign. He has created us for the praise of his glorious grace and we are merely working out our salvation here on earth as babes, learning.

 

[mike buckman]

Then go to the other commentaries I mentioned, or look at Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion. (By the way, I don't believe that Calvin, as you said, just left the issue unaddressed; he may not have addressed it to your particular liking or satisfaction, but that is hardly the same as not even addressing it. Or, if he did truly did not address it, perhaps that's evidence that you, as many here have suggested, are reading too much into the word "relent." Perhaps what you need is a lexical study, not a theological one.)



You need to read more Reformed literature rather than getting your conception of Reformed theology from nitwits on places like Christian Forums.

it isnt forced salvation. It is salvation by Grace. We humans dont know what we dont know. God reveals himself to mankind and blesses them with salvation. Anyone who has stood before God and understood that he is now saved and will receive eternal life, knows that he was dead in sin and would have never come to know God on his own. Such people are thankful to God, because without his grace, they were doomed.

We as humans cannot know God, nor can we attain salvation by any action of our own. We have no power.

Faith is a gift. It comes by revelation of God. It comes in the form of that which screams out from within you, drawing you.... Being born again is nothing less than the moment that you actually realize that God is in fact real. This can only happen by the power of God.

All things are to God, for God, but also by God. It is in this way that God is All in All.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

From your post:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

Again, animals can choose, but have no libertarian freewill. So this does not support your conclusion that humans have libertarian freewill.

So Joshua could have said this to animals, and they would have understood what he meant?

Kind of reminds me of this donkey trying to talk to Mary and Joseph from this trailer in an upcoming animated Christian movie.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your purpose of this thread & you're purpose in some others is your desire to expose Calvinism on these exact points & that you think your view is superior to Calvinism in these regards:

But at least Calvinism says "many" get saved, which is the exact same number that get saved in Libertarian Freewillism. So in the end, there is no real difference, is there?

Though in Libertarian Freewillism, how would God know if even one person would be saved? How can He know Libertarian Freewill choices in advance? Maybe no one would get saved, so Calvinism's God gets more saved than in your view.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

If my memory serves me correctly, you said you are a Universalist. Although Universalism is false, it is at least moral because it saves all people. In Calvinism, God unconditionally elects some to be damned (When God could have chosen to save them but He doesn't). Unconditional Election. This means that God does not elect based on any conditions within the individual. It is not based on how good they are or will be. God just decides to randomly save some and damn others (When He has the power to force save them all).

The real problem here that Calvinists will not admit to is that if God damns certain individuals (When He could have saved them by His power), then that means it was God's will for them to sin (because He is allowing them to remain in Totally Depraved state). For if God's way of salvation was to force men to be saved and He could have saved those He damns and forced them to live righteously, and He does not do that, then God is to blame for their sinning because He could have prevented it. But if God gives man free will to choose either good or evil, then God is not to blame for what man does because the Lord left it to man to decide what his actions will be.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

your logic is based in the worldly and the only information that you have. God interacts with man. This interaction is for our benefit and in ways that we can understand. He interacts differently to different people as well, based on their level of knowledge, but he has a baseline interaction with mankind as a whole.

Choice and predestination walk hand in hand without conflict. both are true simultaneously. To think that such things are mutually exclusive is where ignorance comes in. Any logical argument based on the assumption that the two are mutually exclusive, while seeming logical, is not logical at all.

Read first Ephesians. Also, consider how king Herods choices played directly into Gods Prophetic hands.

If the Ninevites would have repented anyway, so therefore Jonah didnt need to preach is an invalid point as this was Gods whole teaching to man, for Jonah to do it and for him and us to learn from it. Also, if I take your logic to the extreme, there is no point for man to do anything at all, because its already written in stone what would happen. The fact is that we are called to do things by God. Not for Gods benefit, but for ours. We are the ones learning and he allows us to help one another along the way. God wants us to do this by choice. Each choice leading us directly into our predestination, one way or another.

Do you believe in Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement?

According to a Calvinism website: They define these as:

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

Source:
The Five Points of Calvinism, TULIP​

Once you answer "yes" or "no" to the above two questions, then we can begin to address what you have written.

 

[mike buckman]

Do you believe in Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement?

According to a Calvinism website: They define these as:

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

Source:


The answer is "Of Course to the first one and "moot point" for the second one as unbelievers do not receive salvation. This second issue, In my opinion is a non issue and I think that people are hung up on semantics and other irrelevancies, creating an issue where there is none. Do believers have salvation? Yes. Were they chosen before the foundation of the world? Yes. Do unbelievers have salvation? No. Did Christ die for their sins? Yes and no. Its a flawed question. Did Christ die for sin, so that we may be saved? Yes. Is everyone therefore saved? No.

Christ created the individual, giving them all of the potential merit, but salvation is not based on the merit or deeds of an individual. Salvation is all Grace. No one earns it, or could earn it. No one has faith. Faith comes through the intercession of God into the lives of men.

Remember this principal: All things are to God, For God, but by God. In this way, God is all in all.

In heaven, the Angels sing to God. The song is For God, but the song is also BY God. Meaning that he is the author and instigator of the song. He is the one singing and the only way the Angels know "The Words" to begin with. In this way, God is All in All.
The Five Points of Calvinism, TULIP​

Once you answer "yes" or "no" to the above two questions, then we can begin to address what you have written.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The answer is "Of Course to the first one and "moot point" for the second one as unbelievers do not receive salvation. This second issue, In my opinion is a non issue and I think that people are hung up on semantics and other irrelevancies, creating an issue where there is none. Do believers have salvation? Yes. Were they chosen before the foundation of the world? Yes. Do unbelievers have salvation? No. Did Christ die for their sins? Yes and no. Its a flawed question. Did Christ die for sin, so that we may be saved? Yes. Is everyone therefore saved? No.

Christ created the individual, giving them all of the potential merit, but salvation is not based on the merit or deeds of an individual. Salvation is all Grace. No one earns it, or could earn it. No one has faith. Faith comes through the intercession of God into the lives of men.

Remember this principal: All things are to God, For God, but by God. In this way, God is all in all.

In heaven, the Angels sing to God. The song is For God, but the song is also BY God. Meaning that he is the author and instigator of the song. He is the one singing and the only way the Angels know "The Words" to begin with. In this way, God is All in All.

So you believe in Unconditional Election and you also believe in Limited Atonement. This is what it sounds like you are saying by your repy here, am I correct? Yes, or no?

I just want to make sure that these two beliefs are what you hold to before I set out to address your posts.