How Do Calvinists Explain These Verses in the Story of Jonah?

[Bible Highlighter]

It makes perfect sense. They would have been conscious of making their choice. But those whom God wished to save would have been given a heart to choose him.

No. That is called brainwashing. A choice is when you can choose to accept or reject the Lord. Brainwashing happens when one's free will choice is overridden by another in some way.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And if we look at the choice Joshua gives them, it's not between God and idols. It's between two different idols. Joshua never admonished them to choose God.

This is not true.

14 "Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord.
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." (Joshua 24:14-15).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's fine. You've made my point that you have no argument using scripture in context.

Actually, I just provided the context in my recent post. But let's try and stay on topic with the Story of Jonah and how that works in the world of Calvinism.

 

[lesliedellow]

No. That is called brainwashing. A choice is when you can choose to accept or reject the Lord. Brainwashing happens when one's free will choice is overridden by another in some way.

It's called divine predestination. Those whom ne wishes to save, God draws to himself.

The question is, do you really mean it when you address God as Lord, or is he only allowed to rule the universe in accordance with your sensibilities?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It's called divine predestination. Those whom ne wishes to save, God draws to himself.

The question is, do you really mean it when you address God as Lord, or is he only allowed to rule the universe in accordance with your sensibilities?

But I don't believe God acts as you say. There is no indication in His Word that He does such a thing. The fact we know brainwashing is wrong should give you a clue that you are not reading Scripture correctly.

 

[lesliedellow]

But I don't believe God acts as you say. There is no indication in His Word that He does such a thing. The fact we know brainwashing is wrong should give you a clue that you are not reading Scripture correctly.

I will ask again. Who is the law giver whom even God must submit himself to? Is morality some super reality, uncreated by the God who created all things?

Leaving aside whether or not "brain washing" is even an appropriate term.

 

[Hammster]

This is not true.

14 "Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord.
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." (Joshua 24:14-15).

Right. He never told them to choose God.

 

[ClementofA]

Not true. Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take. If you choose the red pill, it will lead you into seeking the truth. If you choose the blue pill, you can believe, whatever you want to believe.

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

And there are more verses like these.

This brief article alleges your "freewill" verses are the relative viewpoint from man's perspective, not the absolute truth as known by God:

http://www.pilkingtonandsons.com/art_zender_absolute.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

No. That is called brainwashing. A choice is when you can choose to accept or reject the Lord. Brainwashing happens when one's free will choice is overridden by another in some way.

It's called Determinism. That's how Love Almighty gets everyone saved in Calvinistic Universalism. He is Sovereign & His grace irresistible to slaves of sin. God doesn't leave the fate of human beings to chance. What if no one accepted him & none were saved due to freewill resistance for many eons?

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

No. That is called brainwashing. A choice is when you can choose to accept or reject the Lord. Brainwashing happens when one's free will choice is overridden by another in some way.

Animals make choices. Do they have "freewill"? Or are they in total 100% bondage to their natures? To be in bondage is not to be "free".

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I will ask again. Who is the law giver whom even God must submit himself to? Is morality some super reality, uncreated by the God who created all things?

Leaving aside whether or not "brain washing" is even an appropriate term.

But your view of what you think is moral does not fit what I think is moral and we both cannot be right. I believe your question is flawed because it is based on your morality in which I disagree with. I believe your question is loaded or false because I disagree with your standard of morality.

 

[lesliedellow]

But your view of what you think is moral does not fit what I think is moral and we both cannot be right. I believe your question is flawed because it is based on your morality in which I disagree with. I believe your question is loaded or false because I disagree with your standard of morality.

So there is a higher reality than God? Yes or no will do.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This brief article alleges your "freewill" verses are the relative viewpoint from man's perspective, not the absolute truth as known by God:

http://www.pilkingtonandsons.com/art_zender_absolute.pdf

It is God's will that He never wants anyone to sin. For there is no darkness in God (1 John 1:5). God is love (1 John 4:8). God is good (Matthew 19:17). God does not tempt man to do evil but man is drawn away and enticed by his own lusts (James 1:13-14). So any or all evil comes from the free will choices man makes. God knows how to do clean up or do corrective actions to what man does. God can turn a bad situation into a good one, but that does not mean God wanted man to sin to begin with. God's will is for us to be holy (See 1 Thessalonians 4:3 NLT). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14); And a person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). For Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him (Hebrews 5:9).

This means that man can act contrary to God's will by his own free will choice. For it is never God's will that we sin but to obey Him.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So there is a higher reality than God? Yes or no will do.

Again, I disagree with your view on God's morality. So your questions are moot and or not true. For your questions technically do not exist because they are not founded on what I believe the Bible says and or what basic morality (that can be backed up by what the real world) says.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Animals make choices. Do they have "freewill"? Or are they in total 100% bondage to their natures? To be in bondage is not to be "free".

But we are not animals. We were made in God's image and God gave us free will so that true love can exist within his creation. True love is when two parties both agree to love each other of their own free will choice. Animals do not techincally have any reasoning to know about right and wrong like humans do. They may appear to know about morality sometimes, but it is not something that governs animals as a whole like humans.

 

[lesliedellow]

Again, I disagree with your view on God's morality.

Look, there is either a higher morality God is subject to, or there isn't. Tthe two possibilities are mutually exclusive and exhaustive, so can we have an answer without any more bluster?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It's called Determinism. That's how Love Almighty gets everyone saved in Calvinistic Universalism. He is Sovereign & His grace irresistible to slaves of sin. God doesn't leave the fate of human beings to chance. What if no one accepted him & none were saved due to freewill resistance for many eons?

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

The problem you should have with Calvinism is that God only saves a few (based on no conditions whatsoever) when He has the power to save them all. This would be wrong or immoral of God to do this because God desires the ultimate good for His creation.

For example: If a coast guard appeared who seemed like he was going to save you, your child, and five other people and yet he did not save you or your child (and yet he had the power to do so), and only saved the five other people, would you be like, "Oh, look son, this coast guard is surely a good man. For he reminds me a lot like God who does what he pleases in regards to saving people."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Look, there is either a higher morality God is subject to, or there isn't. Tthe two possibilities are mutually exclusive and exhaustive, so can we have an answer without any more bluster?

You want me to answer your question from your world view and not from what I believe the Scriptures say. So this is why the questions are impossible to answer. You want your questions to lead to your worldview in which I disagree with.

 

[Hammster]

The problem you should have with Calvinism is that God only saves a few when He has the power to save them all and does not save them.

For example: If a coast guard appeared who seemed like he was going to save you, your child, and five other people and yet he did not save you or your child (and yet he had the power to do so), and only saved the five other people, would you be like, "Oh, look son, this coast guard is surely a good man. For he reminds me a lot like God who does what he pleases in regards to saving people."

The Coast Guard is obligated to save all they can. God is not under that same obligation.

 

[Hammster]

You want me to answer your question from your world view and not from what I believe the Scriptures say. So this is why the questions are impossible to answer. You want your questions to lead to your worldview in which I disagree with.

What's the answer from your worldview? Is God's morality internal or external?