This IS the LOVE of God - that we KEEP His Commandments

[BobRyan]

The details also tell us that the priesthood of Christ is permitted to violate the 4th commandment of the law

Again a misread of the text entirely.

In Mark 2 both Christ and the Jews agree that for all of time - the priesthood was "working" on Sabbath -- for God. In worship service.

NONE of them argued that the priests where actually doing secular work, building houses sowing and reaping on Sabbath or that they were engaging in secular conversation on Sabbath.

In other words this idea was not unique with Christ - rather it was a point of "agreement" in Mark 2.

If you are saying you are a pastor and want to work at writing and preaching your sermon on the Bible Sabbath -- then that fits the Mark 2 text.

Otherwise you have a big misread going there.

The Christian life is lived in worship and service to God everyday:

The Christian life includes both secular work and also Sabbath rest and worship on the Bible Sabbath -- God's Holy day of rest.. and of worship.

Not every day is to exclude secular interest, work, paying bills, working the fields ... etc.

And we both know it.

Details matter.

Moses and Elijah were standing with Christ in Matt 17 - but that does not mean that they never did any secular work in their life on a day that is not Sabbath - that would be forbidden on Sabbath.

Very easy for all to understand.

 

[BobRyan]

It is not a sin for the priesthood of Christ to violate the Sabbath day because we are always engaged in the sacred works of God everyday.

your "quote of you" noted.

But for the rest of us -- we are certain that there ARE secular activities that we engage in - each week.

 

[Bob S]

The Law, Torah was never meant to have any thing to do with salvation. Salvation never came from any law. Salvation is a gift. Those who use keeping Sabbath as a tool to make someone think they have to observe it to please God and in return get brownie points for trying to keep it are completely wrong. For instance, the prophet of the SDA church wrote the following: It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord. God says: "Them that honor Me I will honor." {6T 356.4} That is a false tool to get people to believe they must keep the Sabbath or be lost eternally. Sabbath was never about eternal life.

God said that He was giving the Sinai covenant as the way He intended Israel to live in the land of Canaan. Again, Torah was not about salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

The Law, Torah was never meant to have any thing to do with salvation.

Rebellion was never meant to be a means of salvation.

The LAW is written on the heart under the NEW Covenant Jer 31:31-33.

The NEW Covenant has everything to do with Salvation.

But the Law is not the "means" to get there.

 

[Doveaman]

In Mark 2 both Christ and the Jews agree that for all of time - the priesthood was "working" on Sabbath -- for God. In worship service.

NONE of them argued that the priests where actually doing secular work, building houses sowing and reaping on Sabbath or that they were engaging in secular conversation on Sabbath.

God’s work on the material creation was like a secular work, because it focused purely on the material. But God’s work of salivation is a sacred work, because it is focused purely on the spiritual.

And God’s rest from the material creation was not a rest from all forms of work, instead it was a transition from one form of work to another. This is why on the Sabbath day Jesus said: “My Father is always at His work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” (John 5:17).

God’s rest from the material creation was a transition from one form of work to another, from the secular to the sacred, from the material to the spiritual.

When we enter God’s Sabbath rest, we also rest from our own works just as God did from His. We, too, make the same transition from one form of work to another, from the secular to the sacred, from the material to the spiritual.

"There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own works, just as God did from His" (Hebrews 4:9-10).

 

[Doveaman]

Hebrews 8:6-10 says Christ is the one who gave us the Ten Commandments.

Eph 6:2 the "First Commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment - which is only true in the case of the Ten Commandments.

One may have any preference they wish - but those details remain the same.

And the details also tell us that the priesthood of Christ is permitted to violate the 4th commandment and still remain innocent of sin:

"Haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?'' (Matthew 12:5-6).

Not true in "real life" of course.

Actually, the priests did violate the 4th commandment in real life, and to deny this truth is to deny real life.

In real life both Matt 12 and Mark 2 point to non-Christian Levite priests working to perform the worship service on the Bible Sabbath and just like Pastors today who preach on Sabbath ... their work is not counted as Sabbath breaking.

Again you are denying the truth of Scriptures, because the priests were in fact desecrating the day, which meant that they were in fact breaking the Sabbath. So no matter how much you try to deny this truth it will still remain a fact.

But neither Christ nor the Jews in Matt 12 and Mark 2 claimed that Jewish priests were engaging in the secular work of planting fields, harvest, building houses etc

But yet they were still desecrating the Sabbath day, as Christ said they were. So?

while all others among God's people were "keeping the Sabbath" as if true Sabbath breaking were even going on at all there.

Now you are accusing Christ of not telling the truth when he said, "the priests in the temple desecrate the day."

Maybe "desecrate" has some other meaning to you, but in the Bible and in real life it means breaking or violating the Sabbath.

Rather BOTH Christ AND the non-Christian Jews in those chapter... before the cross... agreed that the work of the priest - was sacred work -- permissible on the Sabbath.

And we all know it.

Bible details matter.

I am not denying that the work of the priests was sacred work, so there is no need for you to create a strawman here.

But despite the fact that the work of the priests was sacred, it was still a desecration or violation of the Sabbath law:

"Haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day...?'' (Matthew 12:5-6).

You may deny this truth all you want, but no amount of denial will change the facts.

 

[Doveaman]

The Christian life includes both secular work and also Sabbath rest and worship on the Bible Sabbath -- God's Holy day of rest.. and of worship.

Those are SDA talking points, but they are not scriptural.

Not every day is to exclude secular interest, work, paying bills, working the fields ... etc.

And we both know it.

Details matter.

The details do matter, and the details tell us:

"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me." "For it is God who works in you both to will and to do according to His good purpose." (Galatians 2:20, Philippians 2:12-13).

When we become born again into the body of Christ it is no longer we who live, but it is God who is now living and working in us through His Holy Spirit.

Since it is God working in us through His Spirit, then those who are led by the Spirit of God cannot do secular works, because the works of the Spirit in us is always sacred works, and this is why everything we do is considered sacred to God, even paying our bills:

"Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?...for God's temple is sacred , and you are that temple." (1 Corinthians 3:16-17).

Those who are doing secular works are not led by the Spirit of God, because the Holy Spirit will not lead us to do secular works in a temple that is sacred.

 

[BobRyan]

The details also tell us that the priesthood of Christ is permitted to violate the 4th commandment of the law

Again a misread of the text entirely.

In Mark 2 both Christ and the Jews agree that for all of time - the priesthood was "working" on Sabbath -- for God. In worship service.

NONE of them argued that the priests where actually doing secular work, building houses sowing and reaping on Sabbath or that they were engaging in secular conversation on Sabbath.

In other words this idea was not unique with Christ - rather it was a point of "agreement" in Mark 2.

If you are saying you are a pastor and want to work at writing and preaching your sermon on the Bible Sabbath -- then that fits the Mark 2 text.

Otherwise you have a big misread going there.

The Christian life is lived in worship and service to God everyday:

But we do secular work six days of the week - that is not permitted on the Bible Sabbath.

of course as we see in Mark 2 - the Jews and Christ agreed that priests (in our case pastors) are allowed to engage in leading out in worship on the Bible Sabbath... by definition.

 

[BobRyan]

The details also tell us that the priesthood of Christ is permitted to violate the 4th commandment of the law

Again a misread of the text entirely.

In Mark 2 both Christ and the Jews agree that for all of time - the priesthood was "working" on Sabbath -- for God. In worship service.

NONE of them argued that the priests where actually doing secular work, building houses sowing and reaping on Sabbath or that they were engaging in secular conversation on Sabbath.

In other words this idea was not unique with Christ - rather it was a point of "agreement" in Mark 2.

If you are saying you are a pastor and want to work at writing and preaching your sermon on the Bible Sabbath -- then that fits the Mark 2 text.

Otherwise you have a big misread going there.

The Christian life is lived in worship and service to God everyday:

The Christian life includes both secular work and also Sabbath rest and worship on the Bible Sabbath -- God's Holy day of rest.. and of worship.

Not every day is to exclude secular interest, work, paying bills, working the fields ... etc.

And we both know it.

Details matter.

Moses and Elijah were standing with Christ in Matt 17 - but that does not mean that they never did any secular work in their life on a day that is not Sabbath - that would be forbidden on Sabbath.

Very easy for all to understand.

Those are SDA talking points,

Well it is "the Bible" and so if your argument is "SDAs like to talk about the Bible and like to pay attention to Bible details" -- I would have to agree.

Those who are doing secular works are not led by the Spirit of God,

That is total nonsense.


there were carpenters before Christ... Christ was a Carpenter... Christ was not "building sheds" or "making tables" on the Bible Sabbath even though He was "Spirit filled".

Also true of all of God's people in the OT and today is still true among those that keep the Bible Sabbath.

This is irrefutable.

 

[bugkiller]

Rebellion was never meant to be a means of salvation.

Neither is the law.

The LAW is written on the heart under the NEW Covenant Jer 31:31-33.

It is not the law given to Israel. Read and believe v 32 in your reference.

The NEW Covenant has everything to do with Salvation.

You get 5 stars for that statement.

But the Law is not the "means" to get there.

True. It is also not the means by which one remains there (redeemed).

bugkiller

 

[Doveaman]

Again a misread of the text entirely.

In Mark 2 both Christ and the Jews agree that for all of time - the priesthood was "working" on Sabbath -- for God. In worship service.

NONE of them argued that the priests where actually doing secular work, building houses sowing and reaping on Sabbath or that they were engaging in secular conversation on Sabbath.

In other words this idea was not unique with Christ - rather it was a point of "agreement" in Mark 2.

If you are saying you are a pastor and want to work at writing and preaching your sermon on the Bible Sabbath -- then that fits the Mark 2 text.

Otherwise you have a big misread going there.

The Christian life includes both secular work and also Sabbath rest and worship on the Bible Sabbath -- God's Holy day of rest.. and of worship.

Not every day is to exclude secular interest, work, paying bills, working the fields ... etc.

And we both know it.

I noticed that you ignore many of the scriptures I posted and have simply resorted to copy-pasting your old posts that I already addressed many times. You are obviously unable to explain those scriptures that contradict your views, so you have retreated to just copy-pasting old posts.

there were carpenters before Christ... Christ was a Carpenter... Christ was not "building sheds" or "making tables" on the Bible Sabbath even though He was "Spirit filled".

Also true of all of God's people in the OT and today is still true among those that keep the Bible Sabbath.

This is irrefutable.

It may be true for those who rely on the law, but it is not true for those who rely on Christ.

"You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ" (Galatians 5:4).

Those who rely on the letter of the law alienate themselves from Christ and become blind to the reality of the law that is fulfilled in Christ.

"For Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." (Romans 10:4).

Christ is the end of the law because the natural principles of the law now find their true fulfillment in Christ. And it is your relying on the natural principles of the law that is preventing you from seeing their true fulfillment in Christ:

"Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away." (2 Corinthians 3:15).

The natural principles of the law required circumcision, sacrificial offerings, Sabbath keeping, and temple worship. All of these now find their true fulfillment in Christ.

Circumcision is now circumcision of the heart by the Spirit of Christ, sacrificial offerings are now our sacrificial service to Christ, Sabbath keeping is now the rest we have in Christ from the works of the flesh, and temple worship is now the sacred works we do in the temple of Christ's body.

"Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?...for God's temple is sacred , and you are that temple." (1 Corinthians 3:16-17).

The members of Christ's body are the true temple of God, and only sacred works can be done in God's temple. What you call "secular" works are really sacred works to God, because everything we do is done to the glory of God: "Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all to the glory of God." (1 Corinthians 10:31).

I know that is is important for to call it "secular" works because it justifies your resting on the 7th day. But the reality is that anything we do in the presence of God in service to God becomes holy and sacred to God, including the works of a Carpenter.

This is why when God descended on the mountain, the mountain became holy, and when God descended in the Jewish temple, the temple became holy, and when God descends into the life of a believer, the believer becomes holy and all his works become sacred to God.

"And whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward, for it is the Lord Christ you are serving." (Colossians 3:23-24).

 

[BobRyan]

The Law, Torah was never meant to have any thing to do with salvation.

Rebellion was never meant to be a means of salvation.

The LAW is written on the heart under the NEW Covenant Jer 31:31-33.

The NEW Covenant has everything to do with Salvation.

But the Law is not the "means" to get there.

Neither is the law.It is not the law given to Israel.

Until you read the Bible - it is the LAW known to Jeremiah and his readers.

The illogical argument that vs 32 could be imagined to say "not the LAW that you know about now" would then mean that the SAME text quoted unchanged in Hebrews 8:6-10 is telling NT saints "NOT the LAW that you know about now"... imagining such things "into the text" makes nonsense of it ... and is pure eisegesis.

And we all know it.

Hopefully none of us would have to resort to it.

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Thus it is STILL a sin to take God's name in vain - -even for Christians

 

[BobRyan]

I noticed that you ignore many of the scriptures I posted

You have a tendency to post texts that don't make your point.

Here is an example --

"You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ" (Galatians 5:4).

You post a "justified by law" text when no "justified by law" statement is made from me.

Creating an imaginary straw-man position that your texts would address is not the same thing as actually responding to the point raised.

By contrast I point to something you actually said and respond with "that it total nonsense" and show why this is true. It is a direct response. I don't simply make up an opposing view to post against with a Bible text.
==========================================

The details also tell us that the priesthood of Christ is permitted to violate the 4th commandment of the law

Again a misread of the text entirely.

In Mark 2 both Christ and the Jews agree that for all of time - the priesthood was "working" on Sabbath -- for God. In worship service.

NONE of them argued that the priests where actually doing secular work, building houses sowing and reaping on Sabbath or that they were engaging in secular conversation on Sabbath.

In other words this idea was not unique with Christ - rather it was a point of "agreement" in Mark 2.

If you are saying you are a pastor and want to work at writing and preaching your sermon on the Bible Sabbath -- then that fits the Mark 2 text.

Otherwise you have a big misread going there.

The Christian life is lived in worship and service to God everyday:

The Christian life includes both secular work and also Sabbath rest and worship on the Bible Sabbath -- God's Holy day of rest.. and of worship.

Not every day is to exclude secular interest, work, paying bills, working the fields ... etc.

And we both know it.

Details matter.

Moses and Elijah were standing with Christ in Matt 17 - but that does not mean that they never did any secular work in their life on a day that is not Sabbath - that would be forbidden on Sabbath.

Very easy for all to understand.

Those are SDA talking points,

Well it is "the Bible" and so if your argument is "SDAs like to talk about the Bible and like to pay attention to Bible details" -- I would have to agree.

Those who are doing secular works are not led by the Spirit of God,

That is total nonsense.


there were carpenters before Christ... Christ was a Carpenter... Christ was not "building sheds" or "making tables" on the Bible Sabbath even though He was "Spirit filled".

Also true of all of God's people in the OT and today is still true among those that keep the Bible Sabbath.

This is irrefutable.
=========================================

Thus I conclude "This is irrefutable" - -you never address that point at all in your response in the case of your "saints do no secular work" or "saints always do secular work".

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

It is "irrefutable" that Christ was spirit-filled AND was a carpenter.
It is "irrefutable" that He did not make tables on Sabbath and that it would be sin to do so - as the Word of God forbids such secular work on Sabbath.

The point remains.

 

[BobRyan]

I know that is is important for to call it "secular" works because it justifies your resting on the 7th day.

The elephant your living room is that Christ and the JEWs AGREE that they are not making tables on Sabbath and that the priests (and in our case the pastors) ARE working in their vocations to lead out in worship on the Bible Sabbath.

What is worse for your view -- this is admitted to EVEN by your own pro-Sunday scholars.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

It is a point AGREED upon by BOTH Christ and the Jews - and also AGREED upon by BOTH the pro-Bible-Sabbath and pro-Sunday-scholars.

It just does not GET any easier than this.

 

[Bob S]

If Torah is what is written on our hearts then why aren't we prodded by the Holy Spirit to wear tassels on our garments> The same goes for observing Sabbath. I have never met a person who was prodded by the Holy Spirit to try to keep Sabbath. Either they misinterpreted scripture our they were convinced by a church or some other person that they must be observant. On the other hand I have met some very wonderful people that would give the shirt of of their back to help others and they are not churched or even care about religion.

When I was SDA the church was constantly holding evangelistic meetings trying to convince attendees to become Sabbath observers. Very few ever joined the church and of those that did many soon went out the back door. So much for the Torah with its Sabbath command being written on our hearts. The proof is in the pudding. Love is what is written on our hearts. The new covenant was not to be like the old one and it is very much different. The old one was about laws that was to govern Israel while in Canaan. The new is the law of love that governs us into eternity. Amen! and Amen!

Anyone who would twist scripture and try to tell others they must be Sabbath observant are not following the real Word.

 

[listed]

Again a misread of the text entirely.

In Mark 2 both Christ and the Jews agree that for all of time - the priesthood was "working" on Sabbath -- for God. In worship service.

NONE of them argued that the priests where actually doing secular work, building houses sowing and reaping on Sabbath or that they were engaging in secular conversation on Sabbath.

In other words this idea was not unique with Christ - rather it was a point of "agreement" in Mark 2.

If you are saying you are a pastor and want to work at writing and preaching your sermon on the Bible Sabbath -- then that fits the Mark 2 text.

Otherwise you have a big misread going there.



The Christian life includes both secular work and also Sabbath rest and worship on the Bible Sabbath -- God's Holy day of rest.. and of worship.

Not every day is to exclude secular interest, work, paying bills, working the fields ... etc.

And we both know it.

Details matter.

Moses and Elijah were standing with Christ in Matt 17 - but that does not mean that they never did any secular work in their life on a day that is not Sabbath - that would be forbidden on Sabbath.

Very easy for all to understand.

Exodus 20 makes no such distinction.

 

[listed]

Neither is the law.It is not the law given to Israel. Read and believe v 32 in your reference.You get 5 stars for that statement.True. It is also not the means by which one remains there (redeemed).

bugkiller

Darling siggy

 

[listed]

Rebellion was never meant to be a means of salvation.

The LAW is written on the heart under the NEW Covenant Jer 31:31-33.

The NEW Covenant has everything to do with Salvation.

But the Law is not the "means" to get there.



Until you read the Bible - it is the LAW known to Jeremiah and his readers.

The illogical argument that vs 32 could be imagined to say "not the LAW that you know about now" would then mean that the SAME text quoted unchanged in Hebrews 8:6-10 is telling NT saints "NOT the LAW that you know about now"... imagining such things "into the text" makes nonsense of it ... and is pure eisegesis.

And we all know it.

Hopefully none of us would have to resort to it.

Yeah buggy doesn't understand English.

 

[listed]

You have a tendency to post texts that don't make your point.

Here is an example --

"You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ" (Galatians 5:4).

You post a "justified by law" text when no "justified by law" statement is made from me.

Oh and listed his raises eyebrows. Is a person justified if they habitually commit what you call sin? If the answer is yes, it means a person is justified by the law. The double speak is atrocious.

Creating an imaginary straw-man position that your texts would address is not the same thing as actually responding to the point raised.

By contrast I point to something you actually said and respond with "that it total nonsense" and show why this is true. It is a direct response. I don't simply make up an opposing view to post against with a Bible text.

Why is it you avoid our quotes and references of the text (Bible)?

 

[BobRyan]

Yeah buggy doesn't understand English.

Sorry to hear that.