[POLL] Should Christians Rest and Keep Holy the Sabbath Day?

Should Christians Rest and Keep Holy the Sabbath Day?

  • Yes

    Votes: 27 61.4%
  • No

    Votes: 17 38.6%

  • Total voters
    44

Uber Genius

"Super Genius"
Aug 13, 2016
2,919
1,243
Kentucky
✟56,826.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Why should you stop observing a specific saturday sabbath? No need at all.
You follow the Bible. You don't insist everyone else must observe a set Saturday sabbath. That's what matters. Keep being happy as you are in my view
In fact whether Paul is referring to Sabbath in Romans 14:5ff or not he is making Stuart's point or perhaps Stuart is making Paul's.

Do what is in your own conscience to do and that honors God.
 
Upvote 0

Uber Genius

"Super Genius"
Aug 13, 2016
2,919
1,243
Kentucky
✟56,826.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Matthew Henry (Puritan Christian scholar) did not include the Sabbath in Romans 14:5-6. He says the Lord's Day was the exception. I believe the Lord's Day is the Sabbath which was attempted to be changed to Sunday.

Romans 14 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)

http://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/c...=1%2C36&as_sdtp=#search="Romans 14:5 sabbath"

When say scholarly, I'm referring to research by biblical scholars on the meaning of Scripture. These are then published in peer-reviewed journals. Commentaries are helpful to the layman but are not focused so narrowly as scholars.

In the reference above you will find the survey of scholarship giving four different views of the "days" referred to in 14;5ff.

P 26 starts the discussion on the fourth inference (Paul is referring to the Sabbath).

"Both groups agree, therefore, that it is ruled by Paul that the seventh-day Sabbath is no longer of permanent moral obligation.
It is to be noted, however, that the attempt to connect the fourth-commandment Sabbath with the "days" mentioned in this passage is not convincing for everybody."

My point is that the inference that Paul is destroying the sabbath is a live inference, and one scholars have taken seriously. Not every scholar agrees it is the best explanation, but many do, and all seem to think it is a legitimate interpretation that needs to be explained away. Modern scholars of the last 70 years anyways.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CDF47
Upvote 0

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,627
66
✟78,635.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
In fact whether Paul is referring to Sabbath in Romans 14:5ff or not he is making Stuart's point or perhaps Stuart is making Paul's.

Do what is in your own conscience to do and that honors God.
Exactly, same with the Levitical unclean foods. Paul states all food is clean. But if a person believes certain food is unclean, for them it is unclean.

In regards to rom 14:5
There is no mention of feast days etc in the entire chapter. If Paul was referring to them he would be guilty of allowing his letter to be open to misinterpretation. He wasn't stupid
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

CDF47

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2017
401
108
45
Macomb Twp
✟58,605.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In fact whether Paul is referring to Sabbath in Romans 14:5ff or not he is making Stuart's point or perhaps Stuart is making Paul's.

Do what is in your own conscience to do and that honors God.

I agree.
 
Upvote 0

CDF47

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2017
401
108
45
Macomb Twp
✟58,605.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
http://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1163&context=auss&sei-redir=1&referer=https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=Roman%27s+14%3A5+and+the+sabbath&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C36&as_sdtp=#search="Romans 14:5 sabbath"

When say scholarly, I'm referring to research by biblical scholars on the meaning of Scripture. These are then published in peer-reviewed journals. Commentaries are helpful to the layman but are not focused so narrowly as scholars.

In the reference above you will find the survey of scholarship giving four different views of the "days" referred to in 14;5ff.

P 26 starts the discussion on the fourth inference (Paul is referring to the Sabbath).

"Both groups agree, therefore, that it is ruled by Paul that the seventh-day Sabbath is no longer of permanent moral obligation.
It is to be noted, however, that the attempt to connect the fourth-commandment Sabbath with the "days" mentioned in this passage is not convincing for everybody."

My point is that the inference that Paul is destroying the sabbath is a live inference, and one scholars have taken seriously. Not every scholar agrees it is the best explanation, but many do, and all seem to think it is a legitimate interpretation that needs to be explained away. Modern scholars of the last 70 years anyways.

That's good information. I will look it over.
 
Upvote 0

Uber Genius

"Super Genius"
Aug 13, 2016
2,919
1,243
Kentucky
✟56,826.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
So, what was Jesus telling them? It is all about love. Love is the driving theme in the New Testament. We know we are doing God's will if we believe in Jesus and love, love our fellow man as Jesus loves us. If we were supposed to observe ritual days wouldn't someone come up to the plate and tell us?
The Law That Hangs (Matthew 22:40): Rabbinic Formulation and Matthean Social World on JSTOR

http://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/c..._sdtp=#search="Matt 22 hang all law prophets"

Law and prophets depend on two commandments (see pp 16) not the other way around.

This is important. If we get subject and predicate mixed up we will reverse the relationship.

Loving God and our neighbor fulfills the law and the prophets teaching.

If we reverse that relationship we have in the Matthean account we get legalism. Following commandments is univocal with love of God and neighbor. Strangely it would mean that Matthew records an account of Jesus in dispute with the religious leaders and radically agreeing with their legalism!

Our love of God and our neighbor is nor dependent on keeping all the law and the prophets. That is what the religious leaders of Jesus day thought and Jesus rebuffed them unmercifully every chance he got for their legalism.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,642
10,794
Georgia
✟932,449.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
No doubt, but the question is at what depth do you want to set your search algorithm? Nicene Creed? Or Sabbatarian?

Better yet - just accept the Bible as your standard.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: CDF47
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,642
10,794
Georgia
✟932,449.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Misses the point.
We aren't looking for certainty where 100% of scholars agree. We are trying to beat understand what various authors said to their audiences based on context, and genre, figures of speech, in a language that doesn't exist anymore, in a culture that is almost 2000 years old or 3500 years old. Not what he English sentence means to us.

Still we managed to figure out that "taking God's name in vain" is sin ... even without having the Pope explain it to us in Italian.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,642
10,794
Georgia
✟932,449.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I will read your comments and do accept the Ten Commandments are still in force to the extent the HS writes them on our heart.

Which is what God says He does.

And it is also what both the pro-Sunday and pro-Bible-Sabbath scholars say about all TEN of the TEN Commandments.

Yet inexplicably this easiest-of-all component of the topic - is the one most-disputed on this section of the board.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Uber Genius

"Super Genius"
Aug 13, 2016
2,919
1,243
Kentucky
✟56,826.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Still we managed to figure out that "taking God's name in vain" is sin ... even without having the Pope explain it to us in Italian.
straw men again? Do you have a barn with a stockpile?
 
Upvote 0

Uber Genius

"Super Genius"
Aug 13, 2016
2,919
1,243
Kentucky
✟56,826.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Better yet - just accept the Bible as your standard.
some here handle the Bible like a cult group handles the bible. That is why I am frustrated. Eisogesis may look like exegesis to the uneducated. But not to those who respect the men who gave their lives to make sure God's revelation was passed on faithfully to us. Reading into scripture instead of letting it speak for itself, rhetorical flourish, appeals to verbosity, misrepresenting others texts, is more than bad faith. It is every bit as morally corrupt as violating the sabbath, or taking the Lord's name in vain.

Hiding the meaning of scripture is not how we mature in Christ. There are many live options that need to be discussed. Instead of engaging those options we continue to get straw men.

IGNORED
 
  • Like
Reactions: bugkiller
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,642
10,794
Georgia
✟932,449.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I will read your comments and do accept the Ten Commandments are still in force to the extent the HS writes them on our heart. We will have to disagree on where we land qua how we define obedience to God's commands.

Back to the Bible -- how does the Bible measure/define/dictate compliance??

Ex 20
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Lev 23:
3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is The Sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is The Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings

Is 66:23
"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Acts 18:4
4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

Isaiah 58:13
13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words

While I personally would not wish for the Pope to explain such simple and straightforward texts to me in Italian - I do admit that they are as easy to read as "do not take God's name in vain" Exodus 20:7
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Uber Genius

"Super Genius"
Aug 13, 2016
2,919
1,243
Kentucky
✟56,826.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
9780310517825.1446825198.jpg


How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth

All,

This is a great book I have used since it came out, to teach serious Bible students how to understand the text of scripture. It is approachable for the layman and helps avoid many of the exegetical mistakes common to same.

1038367_w185.png


Come, Let Us Reason: An Introduction to Logical Thinking by Norm Geisler

This is a great book I also use. Chapters 5 and 6 are on formal and informal fallacies.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,642
10,794
Georgia
✟932,449.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
No doubt, but the question is at what depth do you want to set your search algorithm? Nicene Creed? Or Sabbatarian?

Better yet - just accept the Bible as your standard.

straw men again? Do you have a barn with a stockpile?

Many atheists will immediately respond to an appeal to the Bible as "straw man" - and I think we would both agree to that statement.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bob S

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 5, 2015
4,660
2,271
88
Union County, TN
✟678,792.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I left as well but I am trying to figure the truth from the lies because there is a lot of truth they give you up front prior to Ellen White jumping in who I feel is a false prophetess. Where in Deut 5 does it say that?
I am traveling, so I do not have internet service all the time. Excuse me for not answering promptly. The text that explains that the forefathers didn't have the law.

Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.

The truth is that Torah was not given to Israel as a covenant of salvation. It was a covenant of laws to govern the Israelites as the sojourned in the desert and while living in the promised land of Canaan. God, in the prelude to the 10 commandments, told Moses what the covenant was for. Here read it for yourself.


3 Then Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain and said, “This is what you are to say to the descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

God didn't tell Moses anything about Torah, the covenant, being the plan of salvation. Keeping Sabbath was not for salvation purposes, it was the way the Israelites were to live in their new home. I have laws here in Tennessee that govern how I am to live. God did the same for Israel. We are not in Israel. We do not have to live by those rules. In fact, Biblical Israel's covenant ended at the Cross where Jesus shed His own Blood ratifying and introducing us to His new covenant. He had fulfilled, brought to an end, the old covenant of Torah and gave us the covenant of salvation. SDAs absolutely do not want you to know the real truth, but it is there in the Bible just waiting for us to open the pages and see the beautiful promises of grace. Please read the writings of Paul, especially 2Cor3:7-11

The Greater Glory of the New Covenant
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Paul is telling us that the 10 commandments were glorious. "Were" is past tense. He wrote that the 10 were transitory or temporary. If we study the 10 we can see why. They are like a college 101 course, very basic. They are not the only way we can and do ill will to or neighbors and God. The greatest commandment ever is not part of the 10. That one is Jesus new commandment to love others as He loves us. The 10 have nothing to say about loving God our fellow man. All of the commandments are about duty not love. Duty as the way to live in the land that Gd gave them. Read them.


God's plan of salvation to the Israelites was just the same as it was for Abraham. Moses knew it and of course wrote about it. I am sure he passed it down to those he was the leader. All God's children are saved by grace, not by keeping Torah or the laws of where you live.
 
Upvote 0

listed

are you?
May 14, 2011
9,126
1,817
✟53,797.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I left as well but I am trying to figure the truth from the lies because there is a lot of truth they give you up front prior to Ellen White jumping in who I feel is a false prophetess. Where in Deut 5 does it say that?
Doesn't you Bible have verse 3? In mine it's a very plain statement in regard to your question. What is wrong with picking up a Bible and reading it?
 
Upvote 0

listed

are you?
May 14, 2011
9,126
1,817
✟53,797.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
That's right, not only a lie but a more effective lie, as the truth draws people in to believe and then the lies come in. That's how disinformation commonly works and the devil and his minions are professionals at that. There are more lies about Christianity than politics, warfare, and science combined.

I am not an SDA. I studied with them in the past though.
I do understand you're not SDA. One good thing in your favor. Your problem is you're still infected with their teaching.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

listed

are you?
May 14, 2011
9,126
1,817
✟53,797.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Westminster Confession of Faith on the same point.
Oct 8, 2015 #5

Baptist Confession of Faith - on the same point -

Oct 8, 2015 #7

Once everyone agrees that "editing the Law of God is out" -- the rest is pretty easy.
Do you mean edit out passages of the Gospel of John like 3:16; 5:24; chapter 10 and 15:10? Or how about Luke 16:16; 22:20 and 24:44. What about Hebrews 7:12 and 8:6? What about Jeremiah 31:32?
 
Upvote 0