[POLL] Should Christians Rest and Keep Holy the Sabbath Day?

[bugkiller]

This is quoted many times attempting to prove Jesus required keeping the law for salvation. You fail on 3 counts when thinking about these words you quoted.

1. Jesus would be going against OT Scripture if He was indeed teaching they're required.
2. Jesus then changed His mind (lied) in either John or Matthew.
3. You fail to recognize what the man asked in light of OT Scripture.

Good points. Have my doubts they will say anything about them.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

We're not under that covenant.

Right on!!!

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

How many commandments are in Exodus 20?

Ten I think. But your comment went right over his head.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

'Fulfill' the law is a term found repeatedly in ancient Jewish writings. It is not used in the sense of 'fill up', but 'to do' and 'to keep' the law. Here are a few examples:

If the Sanhedrin gives a decision to abolish (uproot, la'akor) a law, by saying for instance, that the Torah does not include the laws of Sabbath or idolatry, the members of the court are free from a sin offering if they obey them; but if the Sanhedrin abolishes (la'akor) only one part of a law but fulfills (lekayem) the other part, they are liable. - Mishnah, Horayot 1:3

If this is how you act, you have never in your whole life fulfilled the requirement of dwelling in a sukkah! - Mishnah, Sukkot 2:7

Whoever fulfills the Torah when poor will in the end fulfill it in wealth. And whoever treats the Torah as nothing when he is wealthy in the end will treat it as nothing in poverty - Mishnah, Avot 4:9
For more, see J. B. Lightfoots Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica on Matthew 5.

That is not the meaning in Mat 5 and LK 24.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

The word translated 'fulfill' in Matthew 5 is the root 'pleroo' in Greek.

In the Septuagint (Greek translation of the OT, from about 250 BC) the word 'pleroo' in Greek translates the Hebrew word 'malei'. It almost always means #8216;to fill #8217; But there are other nuances of the word.

Here is the Strongs#8217;s definition:

Matthew 5:17 as #8216;end, terminate#8217; is only one possible reading. I believe that the literary/cultural/historical context of this verse lends weight to tranlating 'pleroo' as #8216;confirm, authenticate#8217; and probably also #8216;do, keep.#8217;

Mishnah, AVOT 4:9
R. JONATHAN SAID: WHOEVER FULFILS (kum) THE TORAH OUT OF [A STATE OF] POVERTY, HIS END [WILL BE] TO FULFIL IT OUT OF [A STATE OF] WEALTH; AND WHOEVER DISCARDS THE TORAH OUT OF [A STATE OF] WEALTH, HIS END [WILL BE] TO DISCARD IT OUT OF [A STATE OF] POVERTY

Deuteronomy Rabbah 11:6
Halachah: When a Jew goes up to read the Law, he is not permitted to commence reading it before he has recited the blessings. First he must recite the blessings and then he reads. And thus Moses, when he had the privilege of receiving the Torah, first recited a blessing, and then he read it. R. Eleazar asked: What was the blessing which Moses recited before reading it? [It was], Blessed art Thou, O Lord, King of the Universe, who hast chosen this law and sanctified it and hast found pleasure in them who fulfil it. He did not say, ' in them that labour at it,' nor, ' in them who meditate in it,' but, ' in them that fulfil (kum) it,' that is to say, in them who carry out the words of the Torah.

huh??

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Agreed but we don't want to equivocate on the term commandments. By that I mean the law and the commandments had a purpose that has been fulfilled. We now have the HS who writes laws on our heart. We should keep those and reflect on Jesus' replacement of the law and commandments in the two greatest commandments. Doesn't mean there won't be overlap. Also one person may be called to fulfill certain commands by the HS that another is not required to do.

Excellent!!!

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

The context of "fulfilled" in Matthew 5:17 means to fully teach, to fully preach, to fully reveal what was written. Not "complete" it and do away with it to where we don't need to obey God's commands. Which is why following Matthew 5:17, he starts teaching things properly and expounding on the commands.

Where do yo get this very strange idea from? Never heard anything close to it before.

bugkiller

 

[Bob S]

Welcome back BK I knew you would not stay away too long

 

[Uber Genius]

BobRyan said: ↑
Then do you oppose James 2... 1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"???



Eph 6:2 "honor your father and mother ..for this is the FIRST Commandment with a promise" -- first commandment in what "still-valid" unit of Law"??


Notice how James fully accepts the same point.

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

Paul does not limit himself to "love your neighbor" --

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

These overt appeals to the Ten Commandments in scripture - by the NT authors is fully admitted to - by even pro-Sunday scholars.

as we have seen here --

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

I certainly like the scriptures you reference in terms of arguing that the early church and in fact historical church recognized a strong influence of the Ten Commandments past Christ's resurrection.

"5One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living." (Romans 14:5ff)

What is your exegetical take on this passage qua, "One day better than another?"

 

[Steve Petersen]

I certainly like the scriptures you reference in terms of arguing that the early church and in fact historical church recognized a strong influence of the Ten Commandments past Christ's resurrection.

"5One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living." (Romans 14:5ff)

What is your exegetical take on this passage qua, "One day better than another?"

Romans 14:5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord;[a] and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.

Mishnah, Avodah Zarah 1:1: ON THE THREE DAYS PRECEDING THE FESTIVITIES OF IDOLATERS, IT IS FORBIDDEN TO TRANSACT BUSINESS WITH THEM, TO LEND ARTICLES TO THEM OR BORROW ANY FROM THEM, TO ADVANCE, OR RECEIVE ANY MONEY FROM THEM, TO REPAY A DEBT, OR RECEIVE REPAYMENT FROM THEM. R. JUDAH SAYS: WE SHOULD RECEIVE REPAYMENT FROM THEM, AS THIS CAN ONLY DEPRESS THEM; BUT THEY [THE RABBIS] SAID TO HIM: EVEN THOUGH IT IS DEPRESSING AT THE TIME, THEY ARE GLAD OF IT SUBSEQUENTLY.

 

[Paidiske]

MOD HAT ON
This thread has had a clean.
Please rest from flaming, goading and generally disrespectful posting.
MOD HAT OFF​

 

[Uber Genius]

Romans 14:5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord;[a] and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.

Mishnah, Avodah Zarah 1:1: ON THE THREE DAYS PRECEDING THE FESTIVITIES OF IDOLATERS, IT IS FORBIDDEN TO TRANSACT BUSINESS WITH THEM, TO LEND ARTICLES TO THEM OR BORROW ANY FROM THEM, TO ADVANCE, OR RECEIVE ANY MONEY FROM THEM, TO REPAY A DEBT, OR RECEIVE REPAYMENT FROM THEM. R. JUDAH SAYS: WE SHOULD RECEIVE REPAYMENT FROM THEM, AS THIS CAN ONLY DEPRESS THEM; BUT THEY [THE RABBIS] SAID TO HIM: EVEN THOUGH IT IS DEPRESSING AT THE TIME, THEY ARE GLAD OF IT SUBSEQUENTLY.

Historically, scholars have focused on four inferences for the meaning of Roman's 14:5ff:

1- Pagan fast days
2- A superstitious view of certain days held by other religions in Rome
3- Universal fast days held by Christians, Pagans, and Jews
4 - The Jewish Sabbath

Where one lands may be a function of presuppositions rather than data. To me, the only thing that is clear is that we can't possibly find someone guilty of violating a special day's rites, sabbath included. The one who is not compelled to keep these commands is considered to be more mature, but no different in God's eye due to God judging the heart. Both honor God with their intent to follow conscience.

Both sabbatarian and non would be judged similarly if Paul's arguments holds generally.

 

[Bob S]

Love God and neighbor which all the other commandments are based on.

If love is based on the 10 commandments then all the other dastardly thing we do to our fellow man is not sin. In fact, after careful study, I find no evidence that love is found in the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments as written are about duty to our fellow man and God. LGW tries to tell us that the 10 the character of God. That is an old cliche and is parroted by those who are not giving the character of God much thought if they limit His character to the 10.

Christians are held to a much higher standard than Israel's abiding by the 10Cs which Paul wrote were temporary commands that could only condemn. If they were past tense when Paul wrote 2Cor3:7-1 then they still are past tense. Those who thump the law do not like to discuss that fact. God's Sabbath command only to Israel was part of those commands. The 10Cs given only to Israel were not commands for salvational reasons. The reason was: If you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.” EX 19:5-6

 

[CDF47]

Mark 7:6-13 comes to mind.

I could see maybe how it's related SDA time change if that is what you meant.

 

[CDF47]

I am interested. Where are you looking?

bugkiller

I might be too picky in where I am looking because I am looking for a church with services on Saturday that is protestant or non-denominational that is not SDA. I found a Messianic Jewish church that meets that criteria but I don't agree with their doctrine. I am just real specific on what I am looking for and it's difficult.

 

[CDF47]

No problem we can just change the law to something we like.

bugkiller

I fall short which is why I need Christ as a Savior like we all do.

 

[CDF47]

Ten I think. But your comment went right over his head.

bugkiller

If it went over my head, then explain.

 

[CDF47]

If love is based on the 10 commandments then all the other dastardly thing we do to our fellow man is not sin. In fact, after careful study, I find no evidence that love is found in the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments as written are about duty to our fellow man and God. LGW tries to tell us that the 10 the character of God. That is an old cliche and is parroted by those who are not giving the character of God much thought if they limit His character to the 10.

Christians are held to a much higher standard than Israel's abiding by the 10Cs which Paul wrote were temporary commands that could only condemn. If they were past tense when Paul wrote 2Cor3:7-1 then they still are past tense. Those who thump the law do not like to discuss that fact. God's Sabbath command only to Israel was part of those commands. The 10Cs given only to Israel were not commands for salvational reasons. The reason was: If you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.” EX 19:5-6

All the law and prophets hang on those two commandments.

 

[Bob S]

All the law and prophets hang on those two commandments.

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
So, what was Jesus telling them? It is all about love. Love is the driving theme in the New Testament. We know we are doing God's will if we believe in Jesus and love, love our fellow man as Jesus loves us. If we were supposed to observe ritual days wouldn't someone come up to the plate and tell us?