When all Confederate memorials are torn down, we'll be better off

[ThatRobGuy]

Well, I don't think they should be taken down~they're part of our history.

I've mentioned this in several other threads, you don't need monuments and flags paying tribute to the bad guys to remember history.

The "we've gotta preserve history" angle has always been a disingenuous one. By that logic, Germany should still have all of the original Nazi statues up in all of their parks in order to "preserve history"

We still have history books that document the civil war in-depth, we still have countless museums dedicated to the topic. What exactly does a noble-looking statue of Robert E Lee riding a horse (depicting him as some sort of icon and great man) bring to the table in terms of history preservation?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

From there, we can start burning books like Uncle Tom's Cabin, Shades of Gray, Gone With the Wind, and any other work which reminds of us those times. Finally, we can purge our history books of the fact that slavery even existed.

Again, and you and I have debated this topic many times, there's a big distinction between history acknowledgment and showing reverence to one particular side of a conflict.

We have history books, we have countless museums, we have numerous works of non-fiction from the time period that well-document what happened and why it happened.

Keeping a bunch of statues around (of which, most were constructed nearly a full generation after the conflict had ended, it's not as if they were put up during the war...they were put up well after the war had ended by southerners who wished the confederacy had won) in public parks and naming schools after rebel generals isn't about "preserving history"

...most of these statues were put up during the Jim Crow era by segregationists long after the war had ended. Are you honestly suggesting that these segregationists were putting up these monuments for reasons of history preservation "to make sure that we don't erase the history of the evils of slavery"?

Or, was it more likely, "our side lost, so we need to do something to make sure that black people still know their place in our southern societies by going out of our way to publicly honor men who fought for the cause of keeping them enslaved"

 

[Rion]

Again, and you and I have debated this topic many times, there's a big distinction between history acknowledgment and showing reverence to one particular side of a conflict.

We have history books, we have countless museums, we have numerous works of non-fiction from the time period that well-document what happened and why it happened.

Keeping a bunch of statues around (of which, most were constructed nearly a full generation after the conflict had ended, it's not as if they were put up during the war...they were put up well after the war had ended by southerners who wished the confederacy had won) in public parks and naming schools after rebel generals isn't about "preserving history"

...most of these statues were put up during the Jim Crow era by segregationists long after the war had ended. Are you honestly suggesting that these segregationists were putting up these monuments for reasons of history preservation "to make sure that we don't erase the history of the evils of slavery"?

Or, was it more likely, "our side lost, so we need to do something to make sure that black people still know their place in our southern societies by going out of our way to publicly honor men who fought for the cause of keeping them enslaved"

Rather than selectively quoting my paragraph, why not respond to the whole thing, which made it obvious the whole thing hyperbole? Or are you pulling a snopes and 'debunking' articles from parody sites while failing to note said parody?

 

[sethrak]

The protesters are terrorist~nothing more~ the Taliban are doing the same thing to monuments. Intolerant and full of hate they attack an American town~heck with them they are evil~

seth

 

[sethrak]

America IS A SPECIAL PLACE, never before has this happened that a people can have such freedom, and once gone~it will never happen again.

What was done to Iraq and is being done to Syria are terrible~the administrations that are financing the attack on the Syrian People are faulty~though they do this in our name!

 

[keith99]

I've mentioned this in several other threads, you don't need monuments and flags paying tribute to the bad guys to remember history.

Actually you do. It needs to be remembered that those in the statues did have some good qualities, that they had supporters before and after the actions that made them famous.

The current idea that all commemoration of the heros of 'the other side' should be destroyed is exceptionally dangerous. Along with it the actual men involved are recast as pure evil. They were not and there is a huge problem with seeing them as such, for when recast with horns, tail and the stink of sulphur we become sure that we would have recognized them far before they had any power and will do so in the future. We will not and if current events are the trend we will do worse on that measure than those who came before us.

Far better to leave the statues standing and add context than to try to bury history while vilifying all those on the 'wrong' side and whitewash teh shortcomings of those on the 'right' side.

 

[Jenny_8675309]

Well this thread got weird quick!

Just came in to say I think Confederate soldiers deserve their memorials.

 

[sethrak]

The Communists organized fighting in the street against what they called Fascism, while at their core~they are the same thing. We had an administration in office that sought to hold their grip on government by dividing the American People by Color, Faith and Sex.

We have a President Today who is rebuilding those parts of our nation~that foreign political form of government that is today attacking Our President and working to keep us divided and fighting with each other is Evil~it has lost the grip on our government and people~make they move out of the spot light~make them Shut up and Behave while we put America and the American People first~No more one against the other. United we stand~One Nation~Under God~

 

[hislegacy]

Definitely, and then any art work that depicts the confederacy and don't forget the music and the books. Let's burn the books

Then let's enact legislation prohibiting speaking of it and re-write the history books.

In the end while running from fascism and slavery we become slaves to a new facism that makes us completely intolerant.

 

[381465]

Good thing there's a statue of Lenin in Seattle that's not being threatened.

Now THERE'S a true American!

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Actually you do. It needs to be remembered that those in the statues did have some good qualities, that they had supporters before and after the actions that made them famous.

The current idea that all commemoration of the heros of 'the other side' should be destroyed is exceptionally dangerous. Along with it the actual men involved are recast as pure evil. They were not and there is a huge problem with seeing them as such, for when recast with horns, tail and the stink of sulphur we become sure that we would have recognized them far before they had any power and will do so in the future. We will not and if current events are the trend we will do worse on that measure than those who came before us.

Far better to leave the statues standing and add context than to try to bury history while vilifying all those on the 'wrong' side and whitewash teh shortcomings of those on the 'right' side.

Here's the issue with that...most of those statues & monuments weren't put up during the actual events to honor their "good qualities" (or even shortly after the events for that matter by former soldiers who still respected their commanding officers). They were put up decades after the events themselves by Jim Crow era segregationists simultaneously while those same people were making laws that stated that blacks couldn't use the same washrooms as whites.

In other words, most of the statues weren't constructed by former soldiers who truly respected their military commanders, they were put up by the same guys who were putting up these:

...in order to "send a message". ...and we all know what that message is.

...and when state & city governments are getting brand new confederate flags made to fly on their government buildings, what does that have to do with "preserving history"?

 

[PeachyKeane]

Next they'll want to put up a statue recognizing the contributions of Dylann Roof.

 

[keith99]

Here's the issue with that...most of those statues & monuments weren't put up during the actual events to honor their "good qualities" (or even shortly after the events for that matter by former soldiers who still respected their commanding officers). They were put up decades after the events themselves by Jim Crow era segregationists simultaneously while those same people were making laws that stated that blacks couldn't use the same washrooms as whites.

In other words, most of the statues weren't constructed by former soldiers who truly respected their military commanders, they were put up by the same guys who were putting up these:
View attachment 205370

...in order to "send a message". ...and we all know what that message is.

...and when state & city governments are getting brand new confederate flags made to fly on their government buildings, what does that have to do with "preserving history"?

The statue was commissioned 100 years ago. AND it seems the entire park was donated to the city. It was put on a list of historic sites 30 years ago.

Yes it is part of history. And perhaps a part of continuing history. I have a feeling future donations may come with contractual strings attached in the future because of what is happening now.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Definitely, and then any art work that depicts the confederacy and don't forget the music and the books. Let's burn the books

Then let's enact legislation prohibiting speaking of it and re-write the history books.

In the end while running from fascism and slavery we become slaves to a new facism that makes us completely intolerant.

No, not anything and everything ABOUT the confederacy. That's not rational. Those things that publicly HONOR the confederacy need to be removed. What is your rationale in thinking that erasing history must be done instead of just removing the honoring of evil?

Here's an example to help you understand:
It would be wrong to sing the Hitler Nazi Anthem before every baseball game because we wouldn't want to honor an evil racist man who the United States of America fought a war against and lost lives to because we don't want to honor such an enemy. However, we can still have the Hitler Nazi Anthem and everything else about Hitler in our books, artwork, etc. as long as it is for historical and academic/educational purposes and not for honoring such people.

Do you still have trouble understanding the difference?

 

[Jenny_8675309]

America IS A SPECIAL PLACE, never before has this happened that a people can have such freedom, and once gone~it will never happen again.

What was done to Iraq and is being done to Syria are terrible~the administrations that are financing the attack on the Syrian People are faulty~though they do this in our name!

Australia? Canada? Britain? Sweden? Denmark? New Zealand? Eire?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Good thing there's a statue of Lenin in Seattle that's not being threatened.

Now THERE'S a true American!

That's a very poor example

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Actually you do. It needs to be remembered that those in the statues did have some good qualities, that they had supporters before and after the actions that made them famous.

The current idea that all commemoration of the heros of 'the other side' should be destroyed is exceptionally dangerous. Along with it the actual men involved are recast as pure evil. They were not and there is a huge problem with seeing them as such, for when recast with horns, tail and the stink of sulphur we become sure that we would have recognized them far before they had any power and will do so in the future. We will not and if current events are the trend we will do worse on that measure than those who came before us.

Far better to leave the statues standing and add context than to try to bury history while vilifying all those on the 'wrong' side and whitewash teh shortcomings of those on the 'right' side.

So then by your logic we need to get some more statues put up for Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, Al Qaeda, Ayatollah Khomeini, Mussolini, and many others who "did have some good qualities". Good luck with that.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

If you want to get rid of symbols of racism, I'd start with the Democratic party itself, along with such party icons as FDR, Andrew Jackson and Woodrow Wilson, all of whom are widely celebrated and have their images and names here and there. From there, we can start burning books like Uncle Tom's Cabin, Shades of Gray, Gone With the Wind, and any other work which reminds of us those times. Finally, we can purge our history books of the fact that slavery even existed.

You're another person who doesn't seem to understand the difference between honoring/glorifying people and remembering them from a historical/academic perspective. We can remember 9/11 without having to have a statue of Osama bin Laden put up at Ground Zero or putting up a shrine to Al Qaeda in front of the Pentagon.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Racisim will never be eradicated while human beings are in the current fallen state of being.. So tearing down statues will not bring an end to racisim.. Some people will cointinue to be racists until the day of Judgement..

It may not be eradicated entirely but it will be largely eradicated. People will see and learn that such evil people are not to be honored and that even though it was permitted it will ultimately not be tolerated to have monuments that honor evil traitors.

All that people achieve by tearing down status is to wipe history... People who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Statues are a record of history good, bad and ugly history. What next? Start burning history books that mention bad events in your history?

Wrong. Tearing down monuments and statues that pay honor to evil traitors sends the message that "These are evil traitors to America and mankind and we will not tolerate memorials that honor them because they deserve scorn instead of honor."

How in the world you surmise that this will "wipe history" is beyond me. Do you think that removing memorials that honor confederate heroes will magically erase all the books and other historical records of the Civil War and the Confederacy? I hope that's not what you really think because it's completely illogical and irrational.

Statues can be considered a record of history, but not a very good record of history. Books and research documents are much better records of history and they tend to be objective rather than honoring their subjects. So the point is to not burn the history books since they are objective records of history (at least that's the intention) but instead to tear down and remove from place of pubic honor those things that glorify and honor the evil traitors.

Now, if you think that it's necessary to have a statue of an evil traitor or enemy of the USA then feel free to have your town hire me to put up a statue of Osama bin Laden in front of your city hall. But somehow I think you won't do that because with that person you can somehow see that it would be wrong.

And you cannot shame dead people by pulling down their statues.. They are dead..

Can you give me an example of someone - just one person - who thinks that pulling down a statue somehow "shames" the dead person depicted by the statue? Feel free to provide me with proof of that if you can (but somehow I think you can't).

 

[pat34lee]

It is exciting to see these statues removed. I would rather see them brought down in the same way the Saddam Hussein statue or Hitler statue or Stalin statue was pulled down by the people, to shame those figures. But as long as their removed I'll be so happy for this huge, important step forward for our nation!

This is far from doing anything to eradicate racism. If anything, it
is fanning the flames, because it emboldens those making the
demands. Will the founders go next, or the veterans of WWI,
WWII, Korea or Vietnam?