Are babies unrighteousness?

[SkyWriting]

No, unrighteousness is sin and infants are not capable of sinning.

Being selfish or self-centered to the detriment of those around you is not righteous behavior.
And infants are nothing but selfish and manipulative.
We forgive them their sins, by choice.
But do they treat others well?

 

[Albion]

romans 3:10 quotes "None is righteousness, no not one" but that would have to include the 5 minute old foetus as well as the murder. What does this mean, or is it a bad translation?

No one seeks God, no one understands. It just sounds like hyperbole.

But this isn't the only Biblical statement that seems to say that all of us are born estranged from God by sin. We are part of a fallen species. We have the promise of redemption through Christ, but we certainly don't start off as righteous or else we wouldn't need a Savior at all.

Sometimes it's called "Original Sin," but in any case it's an ancient belief of the church.

 

[TheSeabass]

Being selfish or self-centered to the detriment of those around you is not righteous behavior.
And infants are nothing but selfish and manipulative.
We forgive them their sins, by choice.
But do they treat others well?

It's not sinful behavior for infants for they do not know, do not have the knowledge skills to understand right from wrong, righteousness from unrighteousness.

 

[Albion]

It's not sinful behavior for infants for they do not know, do not have the knowledge skills to understand right from wrong, righteousness from unrighteousness.

But sin is a condition, a falling short of Godliness. Infants, by virtue of being humans, are just as likely as anyone else to be in that situation.

 

[St_Worm2]

I can accept the limited view that mankind generally is sinful, unrighteousness etc, but there is a stiff literalism to the text - no, not even one - to answer the thoughts we are covering.

Hi again GitL, I guess the question you need to ask yourself again is this, is there anyone, outside of Christ, who is righteous? If your answer to that question is still "no", then are you not agreeing with St. Paul's assessment, with his "literalism" in this case?

It seems to me that the qualifying phrase, "no not one", has been proven to be true of us over and over again since the days of our first parents. In fact, I don't believe you could find a person out there today who would disagree with our most common proverbial saying, "nobody's perfect"

As for Romans 3:10-12, again, I don't believe babies are specifically in view in this passage as I mentioned above (Paul understood their state of existence when he penned his letters, just like you and I do today). But for anyone who has matured mentally beyond (let's say) the toddler age of knowledge, awareness and understanding, "no not one" certainly seems to apply, does it not?

Babies are in view elsewhere in the St. Paul's epistles. We could certainly talk about that if you'd like to. In fact, King David had something to say about the youngest among us that many find pretty provocative .. see Psalm 51:5.

Yours and His,
David

 

[TheSeabass]

But sin is a condition, a falling short of Godliness. Infants, by virtue of being humans, are just as likely as anyone else to be in that situation.

Sin is a transgression of God's law 1 john 3:4.
Infants commit no transgression therefore are not sinners Romans 9:11. Infants have done no good either therefore they are born in a neutral, safe state.

 

[Albion]

Sin is a transgression of God's law 1 john 3:4..

That's not what that verse says.

It is possible to commit a wrong; and we call that a sin. Sometimes it is called "actual sin" in order to distinguish it from "original sin," but sin is not just bad things we choose to do.

 

[dqhall]

Hi again GitL, I guess the question you need to ask yourself again is this, is there anyone, outside of Christ, who is righteous? If your answer to that question is still "no", then are you not agreeing with St. Paul's assessment, with his "literalism" in this case?

It seems to me that the qualifying phrase, "no not one", has been proven to be true of us over and over again since the days of our first parents. In fact, I don't believe you could find a person out there today who would disagree with our most common proverbial saying, "nobody's perfect"

As for Romans 3:10-12, again, babies are not in view in that passage as I mentioned above (Paul understood their state of existence when he penned his letters, just like you and I do today). But for anyone who has matured mentally beyond (let's say) the toddler age of knowledge, awareness and understanding, "no not one" certainly seems to apply, does it not?

Babies are in view elsewhere in the St. Paul's epistles. We could certainly talk about that if you'd like to. In fact, King David had something to say about the youngest among us that many find pretty provocative .. see Psalm 51:5.

Yours and His,
David

There is sin of commission and sin of omission. One sins if one bears false testimony. One who says nothing sins, although he does not give a wrong answer, he can't fulfill an obligation to visit the sick and the imprisoned. A baby can't hack into computers to do identity theft, thus it has a form of innocence. A baby can't yet change its clothes, thus lacks a form of righteousness. Someone of the flesh getting 100% right on every test of every university does not seem possible. This is evidence that all (humans) fall short of the glory of God.

Proverbs 15:29 Yahweh is far from the wicked, but he hears the prayer of the righteous.
In this instance a scenario is described wherein there are righteous people and wicked people in the world. Definition depends on context.

 

[RDKirk]

It's not sinful behavior for infants for they do not know, do not have the knowledge skills to understand right from wrong, righteousness from unrighteousness.

A child will disobey as soon as he learns the meaning of "do not." He doesn't have to learn to be disobedient--nobody has to suggest disobedience to him. It comes perfectly naturally. Giving a command only quickens the impulse to disobedience that was already inherent.

 

[devin553344]

romans 3:10 quotes "None is righteousness, no not one" but that would have to include the 5 minute old foetus as well as the murder. What does this mean, or is it a bad translation?

No one seeks God, no one understands. It just sounds like hyperbole.

We are judged according to our works, therefore a baby is more righteous than a sinner, but perhaps less righteous than a good Christian as a babies works are new and very little.

Revelation {20:13} And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

[Albion]

We are judged according to our works, therefore a baby is more righteous than a sinner, but perhaps less righteous than a good Christian as a babies works are new and very little.

Revelation {20:13} And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

I don't think you can make a blanket judgment on the basis of a super-literal interpretation of one verse in the book of Revelation. Not when there are so many other passages in scripture that point to a different conclusion.

 

[Instrument150]

Correct. We are born into sin just as a fish is born into water. We all are wet.

Well said

 

[SaintNick]

A child is born knowing nothing. Learning everything from those in the world. There is no chance in hell that the Lord would damn a new born or unborn child.

 

[Albion]

A child is born knowing nothing. Learning everything from those in the world. There is no chance in hell that the Lord would damn a new born or unborn child.

That would probably be what each of us would do...if we were God. Alas, we're not.

 

[Ken Rank]

That was from Dr Derek Prince. He was the Greek scholar who defined it that way.

This isn't so much for you Dave, I am just playing off your post to share a point. The word "righteousness" whether Christianity accepts this or not, has a very specific meaning. But because our faith culture, over nearly 1800 years now, has tried to distance itself from anything that even remotely appears "Jewish," the "law" has become something we pin to them as a curse and in the process, remove our ability to fully understand what the law really is or what God's intent for it... in our lives... might be.

What follows are some dictionary and lexicon results for the English, Greek and Hebrew pertaining to this word:

Webster's 1828
Righteousness -
1. Purity of heart and rectitude of life; conformity of heart and life to the divine law. Righteousness, as used in Scripture and theology, in which it is chiefly used, is nearly equivalent to holiness, comprehending holy principles and affections of heart, and conformity of life to the divine law. It includes all we call justice, honesty and virtue, with holy affections; in short, it is true religion.

Webster's 2017 Online
Righteousness -
1. acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin

Hebrew (Brown Driver Briggs)
tsedeq
1) justice, rightness, righteousness
1a) what is right or just or normal, rightness, justness (of weights and measures)

(Ancient Hebrew Lexicon)
1. One who is upright or righteous is one who walks a straight path.

Greek (Thayer)
dikaiosunē
1. in a broad sense: state of him who is as he ought to be, righteousness, the condition acceptable to God

Being righteous means following God's commandments... His law. Elizabeth and Zechariah (John the Baptist's parents) are specifically called "righteous" before Yeshua was even born. But let's be clear... being righteous isn't what saves a person... but it is what God expects OF a saved person.

 

[JackRT]

Being born into this material world we carry the curse of Adam, the sins of our forefathers. Only Jesus was born free of that burden as He was born of a virgin and the Holy Spirit. A baby or foetus has never sinned yet is born with that sinful nature. That is the answer that pops into my mind. That nobody seeks God does sound like hyperbole.

I do not read the Genesis myth as a fall from an original state of perfection into sin and death. The first couple were completely innocent and naive creatures. They were certainly capable of making a mistake but, without knowing good from evil, they lacked even the ability to sin. That ability came only with them eating of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". To me the story is a "coming of age story". Our mythical first couple graduated from animal status into to fully self aware human beings capable of making moral judgements. This is not an Original Sin story but rather an Original Blessing story that should be celebrated. We are not a people fallen from an original state of perfection into sin and death. What we are is a people that is still evolving. We are no longer "just animals" but something more.

Why the expulsion from Eden? In the mythology, I believe it to be symbolic that mankind was no longer a naïve creature living in moral ignorance but had become real men and women living in a world where there was real good and evil.

In the words of John Spong: "Every living thing, plant and animal is programmed to survive. What is true of all these living things is also true of human life. The only difference is that we human beings are self-conscious, while plants and animals are not. If survival is our highest goal, self-centeredness is inevitable and thus this quality becomes a constant part of the human experience. Traditionally, the church has called this "original sin" and has explained it with the myth of the fall. That was simply wrong. Survival is a quality found in life itself. There was no fall. Self-centered, survival driven, self-conscious creatures is simply who we are. There is thus no such thing as "original sin" from which we need to be rescued by a divine invader. So much of traditional Christianity assumes this false premise."

In short --- babies are born completely innocent.

 

[TheSeabass]

That's not what that verse says.

It is possible to commit a wrong; and we call that a sin. Sometimes it is called "actual sin" in order to distinguish it from "original sin," but sin is not just bad things we choose to do.

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

There is no such thing in the bible as original sin. There is no sin until a transgression takes place which makes the idea of original sin impossible. Nowhere does the bible speak of sin as something passed from one person to another thru DNA disease nor is it just an idea passed from one person to another..."the soul that sinneth it shall die" therefore sin is something personal when a person chooses to commit a transgression.

 

[TheSeabass]

A child will disobey as soon as he learns the meaning of "do not." He doesn't have to learn to be disobedient--nobody has to suggest disobedience to him. It comes perfectly naturally. Giving a command only quickens the impulse to disobedience that was already inherent.

In order for an infant to be a sinner requires that it have language and cognitive skills to understand God's word, God's law, understand what faith is, understand what is righteous and unrighteous and infants cannot possible have this type of understanding the bible requires for one to be accountable to God.

You posted "A child will disobey as soon as he learns the meaning of "do not."" If this were the case, then you are describing what a child BECOMES not how it was when it was born.

Man is not born with a nature that forces him to sin against his will. Such an idea makes man a victim of sin and not responsible for his sin. Man is responsible for his sins for he chooses of his own will to sin.

 

[devin553344]

I don't think you can make a blanket judgment on the basis of a super-literal interpretation of one verse in the book of Revelation. Not when there are so many other passages in scripture that point to a different conclusion.

Funny strange. John appears to be talking about the "Final Judgement" that is the end all be all of judgment is it not?

 

[Rescued One]

The Bible doesn't say specifically what happens to infants. Do we believe God knows what is just and that His justice is fair?