Women are to remain silent, unless they are allowed in certain circumstances. One of those circumstances would be Eph. 5:19...we are all commanded to sing to God/to one another.
IF women's silence is a command - because it is in God's word, and Paul was inspired by the Spirit, then it's a command from God, is his will and what he wants. So it should have happened everywhere.
To say "God has commanded women to be silent for these reasons ........ EXCEPT when he tells them to pray, prophesy and worship", is inconsistent and confusing.
I'm not sure if you remember, but about a year or so ago we had this same argument that went on for months. I honestly don't think that your mind is ever going to change. So i'm not sure if I should keep repeating myself.
This topic is always being discussed somewhere on CF; I've been in dozens of discussions.
To be honest, it's very unlikely that I will change my mind, because:
a) The Scriptures that are quoted to "prove" that women cannot be ordained, or even preach, don't say what people claim that they do.
b) A lot of the arguments given either don't make sense or are illogical - and God is a God of order and logic, and gave us minds and the ability to reason and decide.
c) People have insisted that they take, and we are to take, these Scriptures literally - and yet they have a more liberal attitude to other Scriptures.
d)If we DID take those Scriptures literally, they would contradict other Scriptures.
e) I know women who have been called by God to be preachers or Ministers/Pastors. They have done this with the permission and under the authority of the Lord and the church. They have not been rebuked, corrected or removed by God for "sin"; in many cases they have been, and are, a blessing to the church. I KNOW how God has called me to preach, and I want only to do hos will.
I put this reason last in the list because some people think that I am in favour of this only because of my feeling or experience.
It's proof because an inspired apostle as well as Jesus himself uses the creation account to remind the modern age of the eternal principals of God.
It's NOT proof because Scripture doesn't say that, Jesus didn't teach it and there are Scriptural examples of women teaching, preaching the word and leading men. God himself raised up women to be prophets, evangelists, judge over the nation, deaconesses, and deacons, in church. In Scripture, men were taught, healed, restored, saved from death and given the Good News about Jesus, because a woman told them, was used to bring about their healing or imparted that knowledge to them. God did not establish an "eternal principle" about a woman's role, and then break his own principle by allowing women to do the thing that he did not want them to do.
PROOF would be if Scripture said, "it is God's will that no woman should be allowed to preach the Gospel - ever." Or "Jesus said, 'go into the world .... preach, teach and make disciples - but women don't need to obey this'." OrJ ""Jesus said, 'I will build my church and the gates of hell will never be able to overcome it - UNLESS a woman takes a leadership role, then you're on your own'."
If the Bible said this, if Jesus had taught, and shown by example, that women were never to preach or lead; if God had clearly said, in words we could all understand, that no woman would ever be allowed to be a Minister in his church, and NEVER chosen women to take his word to others; that would be proof.
Saying, "well Paul said that Adam was created first, so that
must mean that God chose the man, and all men, to be in a position of leadership and authority", is interpretation; not proof.
I
God's curse in Genesis IS STILL GOING ON. I'm not sure if you were the one on here that doesn't believe that, but it's true. As long as the earth is spinning we are under the curse.
1) Jesus came to die for our sins, to release us from the curse of eternal death and reconcile us to God.
2) Part of the woman's curse was "in pain you will bear children" (or similar words). Yet for some women, childbirth is pretty painless - due to drugs/Cesarians etc - whereas other women don't have children at all. If you are childless or have a pain free labour, does that mean you are no longer under God's curse?
3) We CAN BE forgiven for, and set free from, our sin and the fear of eternal death. We still sin sometimes, and may suffer due to the sins of others, but we have been set free from slavery to sin, Romans 6:6, Romans 6:17, Romans 6:20; Galatians 5:1; Revelation 1:5.
Now you may say "that only applies to husbands and wives"--not true, because once again Paul appeals to creation for why women should not teach over a man and why "man is the head of the woman" in 1 Cor. 11.
So why did he CHOOSE a woman to be the first witness to his resurrection? Why did he tell her to go into a roomful of men, proclaim the Good News and give them a message from him?
Why did he allow the woman at the well to go back to her town and tell the men that she had found the Messiah?
Why did he allow Mary to sit at his feet - which is where student Rabbis sat when they were learning from their masters - and say that she had chosen "the better way"? Women weren't allowed to learn, at that time; Jesus allowed it.
Why did the early church allow women to be in the upper room before Pentecost, Acts 1:14, to teach, Acts 18:26 and be deacons, deaconesses and co workers for the Gospel, Romans 16:1-2,6,7,12;Philippians 4:2-3?
When creation is appealed to, it is an eternal principle that is being discussed.
That's an interpretation. I am certain that if God had not meant women to teach, preach or have any authoritative role over a man, EVER, he would have said so clearly, and made his will and commands clear to us. Further more, he would not have chosen any woman to work for him/preach is word - EVER.
We've been over this before. Different roles =/= inferiority. Just because elders have authority over a local congregation does not mean that the members are inferior...
No, it doesn't.
Who gives the elders their authority? God, and then the church. All authority comes from God, and Jesus was given ALL authority after his ascension, Matthew 28:18.
The authority, gifts and power come from God; the church recognises that it is God who has called a person and given them gifts, authority and power to preach his word and/or lead his people.
All is from God. It is God's calling, God's work, God's kingdom, God's authority, God who gives gifts, and God who has created us in his image, saved us and made us his children. We all serve God in the power of the Spirit; having God himself inside us.
Why do you get to decide when certain things are for us or not for us?
Only the context of scripture should decide...and you are correct for doing this when considering things like people retrieving Paul's cloak...but that is a VASTLY different scenario compared to the passages where he is instructing the church on structure and authority.
But the principle's the same.
Would the people in Galatia who read Paul's letters have rushed to find his cloak to take it to him? No; they would have recognised that that was a personal instruction given to Timothy.
Would the church in Rome have obeyed his "command" that women should not teach? It's difficult to see how, when they had a letter from him that positively praised women for all their hard work in spreading the Gospel. Would the church at Philippi obeyed this? Unlikely - not only did they have deaconesses, but their very church was co founded by a woman; Lydia, Acts 16:11-15.
Would the church in Corinth, who were rebuked for drunkenness, have read Paul's words to Timothy and said, "see; we ARE allowed to drink"? I am certain they would have recognised, also, that Paul was writing a personal instruction to Timothy.
Did the church of the NT read the Jewish law and say, "we must do this today; it's Scriptural"? No, they taught that circumcision was a) only for God's people and b) only given for a time; that the law was a shadow of what was to come and that Jesus fulfilled the law.
Why did Paul teach silence for women? Why did he let the local society affect the church?
He didn't.
The whole point of Christianity is that we are supposed to be DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT from the world...and that the world, society, culture, HAS NOT REGULATION over the church?
No, we are told not to adopt the same standards and morals as the world; not to conform to it, and not to love it as though this world is all there is.
We are told to be salt and light in the world, Matthew 5:13-16; salt, in a corrupt world that needs cleansing, and light in the darkness.
We are commanded to treat one another as we would lie to be treated ourselves, Matthew 12:7, and to love as Jesus loved us, John 13:34.
How does the teaching, "when a woman is in church they must sit down, shut up and not preach, or teach, the word of God", obey that?
How is the church leading by example and showing God's love and acceptance for everyone, if it's basically saying, "never mind about equality, or laws which include and recognise the gifts, and rights of women; if you join US, you will leave your gifts, personality and calling at the door, submit to male teaching and leadership, and do as you're told, without question"? How is that message Good News for women, and how does it square with Jesus' treatment of them?
So why did Paul teach what he taught?
He didn't teach it as a general principle; this is evident by the way he allowed women to help him, to do things, and commended the fr their hard work for the Gospel.
There may well have been women in his churches who spent time chattering during the services and disrupting them. This seems to have been the case in Corinth; in 1 Corinthians 14 Paul says that if they want to learn anything they should "ask their OWN husbands at home". He would not have needed to say that if women were already doing that and were silent in the service. Of course asking questions of those around you is disruptive, and calling out, or questioning the speaker is disruptive and a challenge to their authority. So don't do it, Paul says. God is a God of order; there is a time and a place for challenges and questions.
This is very far from saying, "no women can speak in church to read/preach the Bible, give testimony or prophesy - anywhere at any time, EVER."
Apart from anything else, 1 Tim 2:12 says "
A wom
an" not
"ALL wom
en".
.. its what your Father says. For those He calls.. He equips..
