The Sabbath

[OldWiseGuy]

Is there something wrong with distancing one's self from what the Jews were doing? Hate especially bitter hate isn't attractive to anyone.

This certainly has no bearing on celebrating the resurrection of Jesus.

It might if you believe as I do, that Christ was resurrected late in the day, on the Sabbath.

 

[Ken Rank]

The Sabbath is a day of rest, not a day for church activities. Rest on Saturday, church on Sunday.

The Sabbath is also called a holy "convocation" (Leviticus 23:3) which is the word miqra... which means both assemble and rehearsal.

I find the latter word interesting (rehearsal) because the feasts (Sabbath is the first listed in Lev. 23) all pointed or still point to something that would be done through or because of messiah's work. The Sabbath is still pointing to something yet to come. Anyway... it is a day of rest (from our work) but also a day to assemble. So Saturday or Sunday? I choose the 7th day and others choose the first (which is Sunday @dreadnought But whatever you choose... treat it as "set apart" (holy) because God called it that.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The Sabbath is also called a holy "convocation" (Leviticus 23:3) which is the word miqra... which means both assemble and rehearsal.

I find the latter word interesting (rehearsal) because the feasts (Sabbath is the first listed in Lev. 23) all pointed or still point to something that would be done through or because of messiah's work. The Sabbath is still pointing to something yet to come. Anyway... it is a day of rest (from our work) but also a day to assemble. So Saturday or Sunday? I choose the 7th day and others choose the first (which is Sunday @dreadnought But whatever you choose... treat it as "set apart" (holy) because God called it that.

Perhaps Israel had to assemble on the Sabbath because they needed the other six days to do their work. Today we get our work done in five days, so we can use the whole Sabbath day for rest and still have another full day off to assemble. The new testament church met on Sunday to be taught. Why weren't they taught on the Sabbath in the synagogues?

Acts 20:7
"And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."

The point of meeting outside of the Sabbath/synagogue was that Paul was preaching Christ, while the priests were preaching the Law. The church had to have one foot in the Law and the other in the new church while the temple stood and the Levite priesthood was in authority. After the destruction of the these the church, and the gospel, remained. The temple, the priesthood, and the Law, were gone.

 

[Ken Rank]

Perhaps Israel had to assemble on the Sabbath because they needed the other six days to do their work. Today we get our work done in five days, so we can use the whole Sabbath day for rest and still have another full day off to assemble. The new testament church met on Sunday to be taught. Why weren't they taught on the Sabbath in the synagogues?

No, they assembled then because God told them to. As for 5 days? That is our modern cultures way of doing things.

Acts 20:7
"And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."

The point of meeting outside of the Sabbath/synagogue was that Paul was preaching Christ, while the priests were preaching the Law. The church had to have one foot in the Law and the other in the new church while the temple stood and the Levite priesthood was in authority. After the destruction of the these the church, and the gospel, remained. The temple, the priesthood, and the Law, were gone.

What you don't see in that verse you share is that the day begins and ends at sundown. So follow me... if it was what we call Sunday night... then in Judea in that day... it was Monday, the 2nd day. Paul was preaching on Saturday night... they gathered for an end of Sabbath meal called Havdallah and after they finished eating he preached long into the night. Since sundown Saturday evening becomes what we call Sunday or the 1st day... he was preaching on the first day but it was Saturday night and not a mandate to change anything.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

No, they assembled then because God told them to. As for 5 days? That is our modern cultures way of doing things.



What you don't see in that verse you share is that the day begins and ends at sundown. So follow me... if it was what we call Sunday night... then in Judea in that day... it was Monday, the 2nd day. Paul was preaching on Saturday night... they gathered for an end of Sabbath meal called Havdallah and after they finished eating he preached long into the night. Since sundown Saturday evening becomes what we call Sunday or the 1st day... he was preaching on the first day but it was Saturday night and not a mandate to change anything.

I'll concede a Saturday evening meeting, as this would indicate that they were still working 'six days' at that time.

So Saturday evening isn't really the 1st day of the week? And if they had already been to the synagogue, what need did they have for Paul's preaching? Was Paul filling in what the priests failed to teach? Could it be that he was explaining that the Law had served it's purpose and a new covenant was replacing the old?

 

[Ken Rank]

So Saturday evening isn't really the 1st day of the week?

Yes, it is. The Sabbath (7th day) would have begun at sundown Friday evening and lasted until sundown Saturday evening. At which time it becomes the first day. The evening comes first in Scripture, which is somewhat backwards to how our culture treats is today.

And if they had already been to the synagogue, what need did they have for Paul's preaching?

Why do you go to church on Sunday night? Why are church doors open Wednesday night? Did the pastor fail on Sunday morning? Every day is a day of worship and learning... God set one day apart but that doesn't negate gathering at other times. It was tradition in that day to end the Sabbath with a meal and then some discussion often followed. In this case, Paul taught rather than discussed... that doesn't really have a bearing on the day.

Could it be that he was explaining that the Law had served it's purpose and a new covenant was replacing the old?

No, and I don't share your view of the law. The mark of the new covenant is the law (same law) being written directly on the heart rather than one stone. To say "the law served it's purpose" would be the same as saying, "homosexuality was once a sin but now it isn't because the law served it's purpose." All the law is, is a collection of what God sees as sin and not sin. There are added judgements for when the Law is being used as civil law... as Israel used it until after Solomon.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Yes, it is. The Sabbath (7th day) would have begun at sundown Friday evening and lasted until sundown Saturday evening. At which time it becomes the first day. The evening comes first in Scripture, which is somewhat backwards to how our culture treats is today.



Why do you go to church on Sunday night? Why are church doors open Wednesday night? Did the pastor fail on Sunday morning? Every day is a day of worship and learning... God set one day apart but that doesn't negate gathering at other times. It was tradition in that day to end the Sabbath with a meal and then some discussion often followed. In this case, Paul taught rather than discussed... that doesn't really have a bearing on the day.



No, and I don't share your view of the law. The mark of the new covenant is the law (same law) being written directly on the heart rather than one stone. To say "the law served it's purpose" would be the same as saying, "homosexuality was once a sin but now it isn't because the law served it's purpose." All the law is, is a collection of what God sees as sin and not sin. There are added judgements for when the Law is being used as civil law... as Israel used it until after Solomon.

So the new covenant law against stealing means that one has a warm fuzzy feeling in his heart while he keeps his hands in his own pockets?

 

[Ken Rank]

So the new covenant law against stealing means that one has a warm fuzzy feeling in his heart while he keeps his hands in his own pockets?

Where did you get that idea? And why are you taking that tone? God said don't steal, so don't steal. The new covenant didn't change laws... it simply includes moving them from the stone to the heart (Ezk. 11:19, Deut. 30:1-6, Hebrews 8:8-11, etc.) and reveals the DEPTH of the laws. For example... it isn't enough to just not perform the ACT of adultery, Yeshua revealed that to lust in the heart is the same thing. Or murder... not enough to just take a life but to HATE a brother is to take his life.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Where did you get that idea? And why are you taking that tone? God said don't steal, so don't steal. The new covenant didn't change laws... it simply includes moving them from the stone to the heart (Ezk. 11:19, Deut. 30:1-6, Hebrews 8:8-11, etc.) and reveals the DEPTH of the laws. For example... it isn't enough to just not perform the ACT of adultery, Yeshua revealed that to lust in the heart is the same thing. Or murder... not enough to just take a life but to HATE a brother is to take his life.

True, but that reveals the depth of the old covenant laws, not the new. Similarly many believe that the only difference is that;

OC: Thou shalt not steal was a legal imperative.
NC: Thou shalt not steal is a moral imperative.

From a practical point of view how are they different? How do you impute benevolence to the legal or moral imperative? Can we rest in the warm feeling that we did our neighbor no harm? Is this what God means by a 'heart of flesh'?

 

[Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4]

Answer to that is simple , where u want u can do it and you should not judge your christian fellow when he does it , if you wan't to give every day of your life to God then you have free will to do it you are under grace now - Collosians 2:16-18.
If i want to drink a beer i do it to the Lord Jesus Christ because of his grace i'm able to drink it , if i fas then i fast to him because of his grace aswell.

As long as you do right and what's written in Bible , do it whenever you want , phariacies asked Jesus why he was healing people on sabbath too or when Jesus told to guy who could not walk to carry his bed , they were not allowed to carry thier bed at that time on sabbath. Whatever you do , do it to the Lord if it's good it's simple .

 

[Ken Rank]

True, but that reveals the depth of the old covenant laws, not the new. Similarly many believe that the only difference is that;

OC: Thou shalt not steal was a legal imperative.
NC: Thou shalt not steal is a moral imperative.

From a practical point of view how are they different? How do you impute benevolence to the legal or moral imperative? Can we rest in the warm feeling that we did our neighbor no harm? Is this what God means by a 'heart of flesh'?

Heart of flesh is law on the heart not on stone... it is a prophecy repeated by Ezekiel and tied to be giving of a new Spirit. As for revealing the depth of the OC law? I disagree.... Yeshua didn't say, "he that looks upon a woman in lust would have committed adultery but all that is about to be done away with." This was present tense, still the case. We are trying to redesign a God that does not change. We say, "No, we don't do the feasts now" and then admit we have verses that show us doing them in the Kingdom to come. So, we kept them for a few thousand years... did away with them for 2000 calling them antiquated... then bring them back again and say God has been consistent? Anyway... I have no desire at all to convince you regarding what I believe, it doesn't matter. Be blessed.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Heart of flesh is law on the heart not on stone... it is a prophecy repeated by Ezekiel and tied to be giving of a new Spirit. As for revealing the depth of the OC law? I disagree.... Yeshua didn't say, "he that looks upon a woman in lust would have committed adultery but all that is about to be done away with." This was present tense, still the case. We are trying to redesign a God that does not change. We say, "No, we don't do the feasts now" and then admit we have verses that show us doing them in the Kingdom to come. So, we kept them for a few thousand years... did away with them for 2000 calling them antiquated... then bring them back again and say God has been consistent? Anyway... I have no desire at all to convince you regarding what I believe, it doesn't matter. Be blessed.

You still don't get it. The 'heart of flesh' refers to the new covenant, not the old. Lusting and hating are part of the evil nature addressed by the OC "Law". If you break the law you have placed yourself under the law and it's penalty. If you don't sin and are thus not under the law, what do you do now, twiddle your thumbs?

I have attempted to breach this subject many times in these forums, to no avail. No one seems to understand the new covenant regarding 'the law', which is the antithesis of that Law.

 

[Ken Rank]

You still don't get it. The 'heart of flesh' refers to the new covenant, not the old. Lusting and hating are part of the evil nature addressed by the OC "Law". If you break the law you have placed yourself under the law and it's penalty. If you don't sin and are thus not under the law, what do you do now, twiddle your thumbs?

I have attempted to breach this subject many times in these forums, to no avail. No one seems to understand the new covenant regarding 'the law', which is the antithesis of that Law.

I know... but what I do get and apparently you don't... is that at Sinai the law was written on stone and through messiah the law is written on the heart. That is stated very plainly in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-11. The mark of the NC is the law being written on the mind and heart... a heart of flesh not a heart of stone.

As for the rest, sin is still sin... if you sin even after coming to Yeshua in faith you still need to repent of it. There is no free pass because you said the magic word or were led through a "repeat after me" prayer that isn't in Scripture.

Besides... in Jeremiah 31:31 the word for "new" is chadashah... that is the verb "chadash" (to renew, make fresh) being used as an adjective. Hence, it is saying renewed covenant not new covenant in Hebrew. And, that is the same in Greek. The word for new in Hebrews 8:8 is kainos which means "new in regards to freshness, renew" whereas another Greek word, nehos, means "new in regard to AGE (i.e. "brand new"). This is the renewal of the everlasting covenant (Psalm 105:8-10) not something brand new. God didn't make a mistake the first time, heck... He knew before Adam was made that Adam would fall. Everything that was done was done leading to Yeshua.

 

[Ken Rank]

And I told you... I don't care if you don't agree with me. There is no reason to continue this.... I don't seek to get you to believe as I do. Just follow God as you understand His will for you. Peace.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

And I told you... I don't care if you don't agree with me. There is no reason to continue this.... I don't seek to get you to believe as I do. Just follow God as you understand His will for you. Peace.

Agreed. Peace to you as well.

 

[Aseyesee]

The Sabbath is also called a holy "convocation" (Leviticus 23:3) which is the word miqra... which means both assemble and rehearsal.

I find the latter word interesting (rehearsal) because the feasts (Sabbath is the first listed in Lev. 23) all pointed or still point to something that would be done through or because of messiah's work. The Sabbath is still pointing to something yet to come. Anyway... it is a day of rest (from our work) but also a day to assemble. So Saturday or Sunday? I choose the 7th day and others choose the first (which is Sunday @dreadnought But whatever you choose... treat it as "set apart" (holy) because God called it that.

When we enter into rest, all days become the same.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

OK so you want to diminish and destroy the custom of worshiping on Sunday in favor of pseudo sabbath keeping. Yes John's vision was about the day of the Lord. It wasn't about the Lord's day on which this vision occurred.

One has NOTHING to do with the other...THE Sabbath is on the 7th day.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

True, but that reveals the depth of the old covenant laws, not the new. Similarly many believe that the only difference is that;

OC: Thou shalt not steal was a legal imperative.
NC: Thou shalt not steal is a moral imperative.

From a practical point of view how are they different? How do you impute benevolence to the legal or moral imperative? Can we rest in the warm feeling that we did our neighbor no harm? Is this what God means by a 'heart of flesh'?

What ARE the new covenant laws?

 

[Ken Rank]

One has NOTHING to do with the other...THE Sabbath is on the 7th day.

Exactly... there is not one verse anywhere in Scripture that moves the Sabbath from the 7th to the first day. In fact, if that happened, the original picture it pointed to (the Millennial Kingdom) loses a witness.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

What ARE the new covenant laws?

The antithesis of the old. James nails it: "Faith without deeds is a dead faith."
The 'deeds' of the law is obedience. The deeds of faith is love expressed. Ephesians 4:28 reveals the process. In it we see the old and the new covenants, one the antithesis of the other.