Prevenient Grace

[jimmyjimmy]

Why do the scriptures use such language (in literally scores of places) ... when the more direct truth (according to Calvinists) ... is that "whosoever the Lord predetermines shall be saved."

Can you allow for the possibility that both are true?

 

[fhansen]

Are we to go with your recollection and experience or biblical texts?

You should go with my recollection, experience, and biblical texts. But more importantly, and seriously, the recollection and experience (i.e. Tradition) of the Church along with Biblical texts. Besides, you're the one who said I conjured up a "born again dead person". I just denied any such conjuring.

 

[A_Thinker]

Can you allow for the possibility that both are true?

Perhaps ..., but the overwhelming sense that that the scriptures gives that the response of men to God's call determine their destinies, ... while the Calvinist truth that men's responses matter not at all ... makes it all seem like a sham.

None of the other language is necessary, or even helpful, ... if God has predetermined it all beforehand.

 

[Hammster]

What do you believe the Bible means when it says dead in sin?

That we are dead in sin and that we need God to make us alive. So it's obviously the opposite of saved.

Do you have an actual opinion on the OP?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Perhaps ..., but the overwhelming sense that that the scriptures gives that the response of men to God's call determine their destinies, ... while the Calvinist truth that men's responses matter not at all ... makes it all seem like a sham.

None of the other language is necessary, or even helpful, ... if God has predetermined it all beforehand.

Have you obeyed the law of God without fail?

 

[Hammster]

An enlivened person is one who's made alive, reborn, etc. Once enlivened there is no difference. Of course. What's the point?

So an enliven person is one who is saved? I'm asking because you've not been really clear in your posts, and I don't want to make assumptions.

 

[A_Thinker]

Have you obeyed the law of God without fail?

Whether I've obeyed the law of God without fail (which I've already spoken to) ... has nothing to do with the statements to which you are now responding ...

 

[Hammster]

Perhaps ..., but the overwhelming sense that that the scriptures gives that the response of men to God's call determine their destinies, ... while the Calvinist truth that men's responses matter not at all ... makes it all seem like a sham.

None of the other language is necessary, or even helpful, ... if God has predetermined it all beforehand.

Actually, men's responses do matter. Those who believe will be saved. Some say that all get some form of prevenient grace, though. Which is what the thread is about.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Whether I've obeyed the law of God without fail (which I've already spoken to) ... has nothing to do with the statements to which you are now responding ...

I have a reason for asking.

 

[A_Thinker]

I have a reason for asking.

I've already answered the question ... you already know the answer.

Have I fallen short of God's expectations ... absolutely ...

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I've already answered the question ... you already know the answer.

Have I fallen short of God's expectations ... absolutely ...

Has God demanded your perfect obedience?

 

[A_Thinker]

Has God demanded your perfect obedience?

An interesting question, honestly.

For God knows that I cannot meet a demand for perfect obedience.

So He sent His Son to meet that demand for me.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

An interesting question, honestly.

For God knows that I cannot meet a demand for perfect obedience.

So He sent His Son to meet that demand for me.

That doesn't answer the question. You are A Thinker, so don't let me down.

 

[A_Thinker]

That doesn't answer the question. You are A Thinker, so don't let me down.

Actually, it does ...

I was born into a world wherein God had already sent His own Son to pay the debt of my imperfection.

Based upon this gift of grace, God has adopted me into His family, despite my imperfection (i.e. missing the mark).

It certainly doesn't appear like God is requiring perfection from me.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Actually, it does ...

I was born into a world wherein God had already sent His own Son to pay the debt of my imperfection.

Based upon this gift of grace, God has adopted me into His family, despite my imperfection (i.e. missing the mark).

It certainly doesn't appear like God is requiring perfection from me.

Was Jesus death superfluous?

 

[A_Thinker]

Was Jesus death superfluous?

Jesus' death provided atonement with God for us.

So, no, His death was not superfluous.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Jesus' death provided atonement with God for us.

So, no, His death was not superfluous.

Atonement for what?

 

[A_Thinker]

Atonement for what?

Atonement for our sin ...

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Atonement for our sin ...

Sin??? What is sin?

 

[A_Thinker]

Sin??? What is sin?

It is a falling short of God's expectations.

For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23