Universalism...why not?

[ClementofA]

All this while you ignore the big pink elephant in the room the fact that the way you selectively quoted Matt Slick making it appear that he meant something he definitely did not mean.

Nonsense. Can you read my mind?

Matt Slick meant every word i quoted him saying. He wasn't trying to make it appear that he was saying something he didn't mean.

You have no clue as to why i quoted Matt Slick, other than what you read from my words on this forum, such as:

"I quoted Matt Slick who said context determines meaning & said nothing of aionios "inherent" meaning. He admitted the word in context can mean finite duration."

You, OTOH, claim the word aionios has an "inherent" meaning, though it can mean other things when used in hyperbole. Matt Slick said nothing about hyperbole. Instead, he says context determines the meaning of aionios. He doesn't agree with your opinions re aionios.

How many lexicons can you quote that support your theory? Or that speak of the hyperbolic use of AD, OLAM, AION & AIONIOS? Or their "inherent" solitary meaning being "eternal"? I can quote quite a few that make no mention whatsoever of such a theory & say things in opposition to it.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

They most certainly do. Like it or not, argue until the cows come home but eighteen (18) of the verses I posted prove beyond any doubt that "ad" and "olam" have the inherent meaning "eternal,""everlasting" etc. If "ad"and "olam" did not inherently mean "eternal,""everlasting" etc. they could not be used in apposition with "immortal,""never die,""shall not be abolished" etc.
.....Can you show me anywhere "ad"and/or "olam"are ever used in apposition with any words which means a finite period of time? Only that will prove that the words inherently mean a finite period of time. Otherwise "ad" and "olam" are used hyperbolically. Just like we westerners use "forever" hyperbolically e.g. "I had to wait at the Dr's office forever." The word still means "forever"' although I used it hyperbolically for a period of an hour or so.

The following is from Greek scholar Marvin Vincent. You are no scholar, but he is. Re aion, the equivalent of olam, he says:

"The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."

"...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."

".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

"...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."

"...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."

http://bibleone.net/Aion-Aionios.pdf

Word Studies in the New Testament

Not long ago i quoted 12 other sources which say aionios is used of limited duration or speak of it as including the meaning agelong, lasting for an age & similarly. Some of these you have quoted yourself. They include:

1. Vine's Expository Dictionary
2. Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries
3. Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992
4. Strong's
5. Helps Word Studies copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.
Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal
6. Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament
7. The Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament. Copyright © 1914, 1929, 1930 by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan.
8. The Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament, by Mounce
9. A. T. Robertson in his "Word Pictures In The New Testament
10. the multivolume THEOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT (begun in German under the editorship of Gerhard Kittel) Hermann Sasse
11.BDAG. A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature
12. Dr. Bullinger, author of the King James Companion Bible

I also gave a list of examples of aionios used of finite duration in the Greek Old Testament (LXX/Septuagint), as follows. If the translators thought the word inherently meant "eternal", why didn't they translate it as "eternal"?

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient(aionios) times. (Psa.77:5)

Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone, which your fathers have set up. (Prov.22:28)

Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone. Don’t encroach on the fields of the fatherless: (Prov.23:10)

Those from among you will rebuild the ancient(aionios) ruins; You will raise up the age-old(aionios) foundations;... (Isa 58:12a)

Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because the enemy has said against you, Aha! and, The ancient(aionios) high places are ours in possession; (Ezek.36:2)

Because of thy having an enmity age-during(aionios)... (Ezek.35:5a)

They will rebuild the perpetual(aionios) ruins and restore the places that were desolate; (Isa.61:4a)

I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever(aionios): yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. (Jonah 2:6)

He beat back His foes; He gave them lasting(aionios) shame. (Psa.78:66)

Will you keep the old(aionios) way, which wicked men have trodden (Job 22:15)

Will it make an agreement with you for you to take it as your slave for life(aionios)? (Job 41:4)

’Will you not fear me?" says The Lord "will you not be cautious in front of my face? The One who appointed the sand to be the boundary to the sea, by perpetual(aionios) decree, that it will not cross over though it will be agitated it is not able and though the waves resound within her yet she will not overstep it. (Jer.5:22)

Their land will be an object of horror and of lasting(aionios) scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake their heads. (Jer.18:16)

Behold I will send, and take all the kindreds of the north, saith the Lord, and Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon my servant: and I will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all the nations that are round about it: and I will destroy them, and make them an astonishment and a hissing, and
perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:9)

And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:12)

In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual(aionios) sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (Jer.51:39)

When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old(aionios),
with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek.26:20)

I will make you a perpetual(aionios) desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited; and you shall know that I am Yahweh. (Ezek.35:9)

From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian(aionios) life and these to reproach for eonian(aionios) repulsion. (Daniel 12:2)

Thus says Yahweh, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old(aionios) paths, ‘Where is the good way?’ and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls.
But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (Jer.6:16)

For my people have forgotten me, they have burned incense to false gods; and they have been made to stumble in their ways, in the ancient(aionios) paths, to walk in byways, in a way not built up; (Jer.18:15)

Then he remembered the days of old(aionios), Moses and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock?where is he who put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (Isa.63:11)

 

[Der Alte]

The following is from Greek scholar Marvin Vincent. You are no scholar, but he is. Re aion, the equivalent of olam, he says: ...
Not long ago i quoted 12 other sources which say aionios is used of limited duration or speak of it as including the meaning agelong, lasting for an age & similarly. Some of these you have quoted yourself. They include:
....

You quote Vincent as if he alone is a pontiff who must be obeyed. Here from my copy of Vincent Word Studies[VWS]

VWS Joh 3:16 Have eternal life
A characteristic phrase of John for live forever. See Joh_3:16, Joh_3:36; Joh_5:24; Joh_6:40, Joh_6:47, Joh_6:54; 1Jo_3:15; 1Jo_5:12.
Joh 4:14
Unto everlasting life
Christ in a believer is life. This life ever tends toward its divine source, and issues in eternal life.
Heb 10:12 Forever (εἰς τὸ διηνεκὲς)
Const. with offered. The reason appears in Heb_10:14. It is according to the usage of the epistle to place this phrase after that which it qualifies. Thus one sacrifice forever is contrasted with the same sacrifices often. This agrees also with what follows. He offered one sacrifice forever, and then sat down, awaiting its eternal result.
Heb. 13:8 He is ever the same. He must be to you, today, what he was to them, yesterday, and will be forever to the heavenly hosts - Christ. ​

Correction to your statement you have not quoted anything from most of the sources you listed. Rather you have copy/pasted second hand quotes from another website probably tents-я-us. Of those ,all of the following include the definition "eternal,""everlasting" etc. No, ifs, and or buts "eternal" is included in the definition. I know because I have the sources.
.....If aion did not have the inherent meaning "eternal" none of these sources would have listed it unequivocally as the definition, but they did.

3. Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992
4. Strong's
7. The Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament. Copyright © 1914, 1929, 1930 by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan.
9. A. T. Robertson in his "Word Pictures In The New Testament
10. the multivolume THEOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT (begun in German under the editorship of Gerhard Kittel) Hermann Sasse
11.BDAG. A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature
12. Dr. Bullinger, author of the King James Companion Bible.​

 

[Der Alte]

Nonsense. Can you read my mind?
Matt Slick meant every word i quoted him saying. He wasn't trying to make it appear that he was saying something he didn't mean.
You have no clue as to why i quoted Matt Slick, other than what you read from my words on this forum, such as:

I said nothing about your mind or you reasons I clearly said.

"Unfortunately while you were busy copy/pasting, the quote was somehow deceptively truncated which concealed the full meaning of Matt's article." ​

"I quoted Matt Slick who said context determines meaning & said nothing of aionios "inherent" meaning. He admitted the word in context can mean finite duration."

"can mean finite duration" does not mean "always means finite duration."

You, OTOH, claim the word aionios has an "inherent" meaning, though it can mean other things when used in hyperbole. Matt Slick said nothing about hyperbole. Instead, he says context determines the meaning of aionios. He doesn't agree with your opinions re aionios.

While Matt Slick did not use the word "inherent" the way he explained it "aion" must have the inherent meaning "eternal." Referring to 1 Tim 1:16, "It means that God is deathless; hence, immortal. This is an eternal quality of God." As I pointed out a few times before. God "possesses immortality" and He has "eternal dominion." "Aion" is equated with "immortal."

"It is true that the root "aion" means age. But just because a root means age does not mean that every word derived from that root means a limited duration of time. For example, consider this verse that is speaking about God:
"who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen," (1 Tim. 6:16)
The context is obviously dealing with God's eternal nature. The word in Greek for "immortality" is "athanatos." The Greek word for death is "thanatos." The "a" in front of the word is the negator -- without, non, etc. It means that God is deathless; hence, immortal. This is an eternal quality of God. Likewise, the verse states that God has eternal dominion. The word for "eternal" is "αἰώνιος/aionios" which is derived from the Greek root "αἰών/aion" which means age. But, God is not immortal for only an "age," nor is His dominion temporal. The word "eternal" is absolutely the best way to translate the Greek "αἰώνιον"/"aionion" because God is immortal and eternal. Therefore, it would be wrong to translate the verse by stating that God has "αἰώνιον"/"aionion" dominion. Rather, He has eternal dominion."​

How many lexicons can you quote that support your theory? Or that speak of the hyperbolic use of AD, OLAM, AION & AIONIOS? Or their "inherent" solitary meaning being "eternal"? I can quote quite a few that make no mention whatsoever of such a theory & say things in opposition to it.
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

All, 100% of the sources I mentioned above cite"aion" having the meaning "eternal, everlasting" etc. without equivocation.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
Eternal ē̇-tûr´nal (עולם, ‛ōlām; αἰώνιος, aiō̇nios, from αἰών, aiō̇n): The word “eternal” is of very varying import, both in the Scriptures and out of them.
1. ‛Ōlām
In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word ‛ōlām is used for “eternity,” sometimes in the sense of unlimited duration, sometimes in the sense of a cycle or an age, and sometimes, in later Hebrew, in the signification of world.
αἰών aiōn
Thayer Definition:
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age
Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)
[BDAG] αἰώνιος 3.pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ.everlasting
On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God:
1 Timothy 1:17
(17) Now unto the King eternal, (1) immortal,(2) invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever (1) and ever (1). Amen.
(1) αἰών/aion (2) ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos​

In this verse “aion” is in apposition, see def. below, with “immortal.” If “aion” means “age(s),” a finite period, God cannot be for “a finite period” and “immortal” at the same time. God is “eternal” and “immortal” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”

Romans 2:7
(7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,(2) eternal (1) life:​

“Aion” is in apposition with “immortality.” If “aion” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternity” and “immortality” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”

2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal (1) weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;(3) but the things which are not seen are eternal.(1)
(3) πρόσκαιρος/proskairos​

Here “aion” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Aion” cannot mean “age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary.” “Eternal” is.

2 Corinthians 5:1
(1)For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal (1) in the heavens.​

Here “aion house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” An “aion” house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” “Aion” means “eternal.”

Hebrews 7:24
(24) But this man, because he continueth ever,(1) hath an unchangeable (4) priesthood.
(4) ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos​

Here “unchangeable” is in apposition with “aion.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Melchizadek cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”

1 Peter 1:23
(23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,(2) by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.(1)​

Here “incorruptible” is in apposition with “aion.” The seed of God cannot be “incorruptible” and only for “a finite period” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”

 

[Mark Corbett]

For anyone who is interested I just started another thread related to this topic. Why start a new thread? Well, for one thing I wanted to start by carefully laying out the case for Conditional Immortality, and that required a longer post than is normally found in comments, but works reasonably well as an OP. Please continue your discussion here (I may join in some), and also, if you're interested, check out the new thread here: Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationism, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

While Matt Slick did not use the word "inherent" the way he explained it "aion" must have the inherent meaning "eternal." Referring to 1 Tim 1:16,

His reference was to 1 Tim.6:16, not 1:16.

Actually he said context determines meaning. Then he explained how he thought in the context of 1 Tim.6:16 aionion means eternal and in the context of Rom.16:25 it does
not mean eternal, but refers to a finite period of time. If those references are to inherent meaning, then he believes the word can have more than one inherent meaning. But i don't see anything in his writings to support that. Rather his view is that context determines the meaning of aionios. He made no reference to hyperbolic usage of aionios.

You OTOH say AD means "only eternal", & evidently olam, aion & aionios as well, i.e. it has only one meaning, unless used hyperbolicly, and even then it retains its inherent meaning. Evidently Matt Slick, & others, including lexicons in general, do not concur with your opinion on this topic. That includes the sources you copied from my list of 12 sources.

 

[ClementofA]

​

All, 100% of the sources I mentioned above cite"aion" having the meaning "eternal, everlasting" etc. without equivocation.

​

According to you the words AD, AION, AIONIOS, OLAM mean "only eternal". Let's see how ridiculous that claim is & why scholarship in general opposes you. I could post hundreds of posts on this topic. This will do for a start:

"Consider the N. T. use of aion. Does eternity make any sense in the following passages? To make my point unmistakable, I have translated the Greek word aion with the English word eternity.

 What will be the sign…of the end of the eternity (Mt. 24:3)?

 I am with you…to the end of the eternity (Mt. 28:20).

 The sons of this eternity are more shrewd (Lu. 16:8).

 The sons of this eternity marry (Lu. 20:34).

 Worthy to attain that eternity (Lu. 20:35).

 Since the eternity began (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21).

 Conformed to this eternity (Ro. 12:2).

 Mystery kept secret since the eternity began but now made manifest (Ro. 16:25-26).

 Where is the disputer of this eternity (1Co. 1:20)?

 Wisdom of this eternity, nor of the rulers of this eternity…ordained before the eternities…which none of the rulers of this eternity… (1Co. 2:6-8)

 Wise in this eternity (1Co. 3:18).

 Upon whom the ends of the eternities have come. (1Co. 10:11)

 God of this eternity has blinded (2Co. 4:4).

 Deliver us from this present evil eternity (Ga. 1:4).

 Not only in this eternity but also in that which is to come (Ep. 1:21).

 Walked according to the eternity of this world (Ep. 2:2).

 In the eternities to come (Ep. 2:7).

 From the beginnings of the eternities (Ep. 3:9).

 Hidden from eternities…but now…revealed (Col. 1:26).

 Loved this present eternity (2Ti. 4:10).

 Powers of the eternity to come (He. 6:5).

 At the end of the eternities (He. 9:26).

 We understand the eternities have been prepared by a saying of God (He. 11:3)."

p.23-4 at:

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Der Alte]

According to you the words AD, AION, AIONIOS, OLAM mean "only eternal". Let's see how ridiculous that claim is & why scholarship in general opposes you. I could post hundreds of posts on this topic. This will do for a start:
"Consider the N. T. use of aion. Does eternity make any sense in the following passages? To make my point unmistakable, I have translated the Greek word aion with the English word eternity.
...

Irrelevant!!! All this while you totally ignore all the scripture I posted. As I have said more than once those verses show that "olam" and "ad" have the inherent meaning "eternal,""everlasting" etc. If this was not true God and the writers of the OT could not have used them in a context where they can mean nothing but "eternal,""everlasting." For example the first one in my list, Exo 3:15.

Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever,[[עולם]/olam] and this is my memorial unto all generations.​

God Himself said "YHWH...is my name olam,.. my memorial to all generations." If "olam" did not mean "eternal," God could not have said it was a memorial to all generations.

 

[ClementofA]

Irrelevant!!! All this while you totally ignore all the scripture I posted. As I have said more than once those verses show that "olam" and "ad" have the inherent meaning "eternal,""everlasting" etc. .

None of the verses i posted had either AD or OLAM in them. They had AION.

What makes them "irrelevant". Is Scripture irrelevant to you?

You are arguing that the words AD, OLAM, AION & AIONIOS mean "only eternal". But offered no explanation of how that is obviously not true in the list of AION verses i posted.

"Consider the N. T. use of aion. Does eternity make any sense in the following passages? To make my point unmistakable, I have translated the Greek word aion with the English word eternity.

 What will be the sign…of the end of the eternity (Mt. 24:3)?

 I am with you…to the end of the eternity (Mt. 28:20).

 The sons of this eternity are more shrewd (Lu. 16:8).

 The sons of this eternity marry (Lu. 20:34).

 Since the eternity began (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21).

 Conformed to this eternity (Ro. 12:2)."

Translating the above verses with the word "eternal" or "eternity" makes them look ridiculous. Likewise also your theory.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[Der Alte]

His reference was to 1 Tim.6:16, not 1:16.
Actually he said context determines meaning. Then he explained how he thought in the context of 1 Tim.6:16 aionion means eternal and in the context of Rom.16:25 it does
not mean eternal, but refers to a finite period of time. If those references are to inherent meaning, then he believes the word can have more than one inherent meaning. But i don't see anything in his writings to support that. Rather his view is that context determines the meaning of aionios. He made no reference to hyperbolic usage of aionios.
You OTOH say AD means "only eternal", & evidently olam, aion & aionios as well, i.e. it has only one meaning, unless used hyperbolicly, and even then it retains its inherent meaning. Evidently Matt Slick, & others, including lexicons in general, do not concur with your opinion on this topic. That includes the sources you copied from my list of 12 sources.

Can a word mean two opposite things at the same time? Can a word mean hot and cold, up and down, in and out, finite and eternal, all at the same time? My quote from Matt Slick again.
Here Matt refers to the "lexical root fallacy" which assumes/insists that a word always only has the meaning of the root word. Which is like saying "understand" means to stand under something.

"This approach by the Universalists can be confusing to someone who doesn't understand Greek, and that is part of the reason that Universalism has followers. It is true that the root "aion" means age. But just because a root means age does not mean that every word derived from that root means a limited duration of time.
"For example, consider this verse that is speaking about God:
"who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen," (1 Tim. 6:16)
The context is obviously dealing with God's eternal nature. The word in Greek for "immortality" is "athanatos." The Greek word for death is "thanatos." The "a" in front of the word is the negator -- without, non, etc. It means that God is deathless; hence, immortal. This is an eternal quality of God. Likewise, the verse states that God has eternal dominion. The word for "eternal" is "αἰώνιος/aionios" which is derived from the Greek root "αἰών/aion" which means age. But, God is not immortal for only an "age," nor is His dominion temporal. The word "eternal" is absolutely the best way to translate the Greek "αἰώνιον"/"aionion" because God is immortal and eternal. Therefore, it would be wrong to translate the verse by stating that God has "αἰώνιον"/"aionion" dominion. Rather, He has eternal dominion."​

​

 

[Der Alte]

According to you the words AD, AION, AIONIOS, OLAM mean "only eternal". Let's see how ridiculous that claim is & why scholarship in general opposes you. I could post hundreds of posts on this topic. This will do for a start:
"Consider the N. T. use of aion. Does eternity make any sense in the following passages? To make my point unmistakable, I have translated the Greek word aion with the English word eternity.
 What will be the sign…of the end of the eternity (Mt. 24:3)?
 I am with you…to the end of the eternity (Mt. 28:20).
 The sons of this eternity are more shrewd (Lu. 16:8).
 The sons of this eternity marry (Lu. 20:34).
 Worthy to attain that eternity (Lu. 20:35).
 Since the eternity began (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21).
 Conformed to this eternity (Ro. 12:2).
 Mystery kept secret since the eternity began but now made manifest (Ro. 16:25-26).
 Where is the disputer of this eternity (1Co. 1:20)?
 Wisdom of this eternity, nor of the rulers of this eternity…ordained before the eternities…which none of the rulers of this eternity… (1Co. 2:6-8)
 Wise in this eternity (1Co. 3:18).
 Upon whom the ends of the eternities have come. (1Co. 10:11)
 God of this eternity has blinded (2Co. 4:4).
 Deliver us from this present evil eternity (Ga. 1:4).
 Not only in this eternity but also in that which is to come (Ep. 1:21).
 Walked according to the eternity of this world (Ep. 2:2).
 In the eternities to come (Ep. 2:7).
 From the beginnings of the eternities (Ep. 3:9).
 Hidden from eternities…but now…revealed (Col. 1:26).
 Loved this present eternity (2Ti. 4:10).
 Powers of the eternity to come (He. 6:5).
 At the end of the eternities (He. 9:26).
 We understand the eternities have been prepared by a saying of God (He. 11:3)."
p.23-4 at:

Okay you want to talk about NT verses. In these verses what is the meaning of αἰών/aion? See my discussion of each verse is it correct or not?

1.1 Timothy 1:17
(17) Now unto the King eternal, (1) immortal,(2) invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever (1) and ever (1). Amen.
(1) αἰών/aion (2) ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos​

In this verse “aion” is in apposition, see def. below, with “immortal.” If “aion” means “age(s),” a finite period, God cannot be for “a finite period” and “immortal” at the same time. God is “eternal” and “immortal” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”

2.Romans 2:7
(7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,(2) eternal (1) life:​

“Aion” is in apposition with “immortality.” If “aion” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternity” and “immortality” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”

3.2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal (1) weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;(3) but the things which are not seen are eternal.(1)
(3) πρόσκαιρος/proskairos​

Here “aion” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Aion” cannot mean “age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary.” “Eternal” is.

4.2 Corinthians 5:1
(1)For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal (1) in the heavens.​

Here “aion house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” An “aion” house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” “Aion” means “eternal.”

5.Hebrews 7:24
(24) But this man, because he continueth ever,(1) hath an unchangeable (4) priesthood.
(4) ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos ​

Here “unchangeable” is in apposition with “aion.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Melchizadek cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”

6.1 Peter 1:23
(23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,(2) by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.(1)​

Here “incorruptible” is in apposition with “aion.” The seed of God cannot be “incorruptible” and only for “a finite period” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”
The definition of “apposition” from a Greek grammar.

III. Nominative in Simple Apposition
The nominative case (as well as the other cases) can be an appositive to another substantive in the same case. The usage is quite common. There are four features of simple apposition to be noted (the first two are structural clues; the last two features are semantic): An appositional construction inz’olz’es (1) two adjacent substantives (2)in the same case (40) (3) which refer to the same person or thing, (4) and have the same syntactical relation to the rest of the clause.
The first substantive can belong to any category (e.g., subject, Predicate nom., etc.) and the second is merely a clarification, description, or identification of who or what is mentioned.(41) Thus, the appositive “piggy-backs” on the first nominative’s use, as it were. For this reason simple apposition is not an independent syntactical category.
The appositive functions very much like a PN in a convertible proposition that is, it refers to the same thing as the first noun.(42) The difference, however, is that a PN makes an assertion about the S (an equative verb is either stated or implied); with appositives there is assumption, not assertion (no verb is in mind). In the sentence “Paul is an apostle,” apostle is a PN; in the sentence, “Paul the apostle is in prison,” apostle is in apposition to Paul.

(40)The nom. occasionally is in apposition to an oblique case, but the semantics are the same. See discussion below.
(41) An appositive, strictly speaking, is substantival, not adjectival. Thus, adjectives or Participles in second attributive position are not generally appositives, but usually hate an adjectival force.
(42) The significance of this will be seen in our discussion of the gen. case, for the gen can also involve a syntactical category, vi.t., the gen of apposition. The semantics involved in such a category are quite different from those involved in simple apposition.

With proper names typically the first noun is anarthrous and the appositional noun is articular.
Matt 3:1 παραγινεται ιωαννης ο βαπτιστης κηρυσσων
John the Baptist came Preaching
Mark 15:4 0 εν αις ην και μαρια η μαγδαληνη
among them also were Mary the Magdalene...
Luke 1:24 συνελαβεν ελισαβετ η γυνη αυτου
Elizabeth his wife conceived
Rev 1:5 ο μαρτυς ο πιστος ο πρωτοτοκος εκ των νεκρων
the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead
Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, Grand Rapids MI, 1996, Daniel Wallace, pp.48-49​

 

[ClementofA]

Re the claim AD, OLAM, AION, AIONIOS have the inherent meaning of "only eternal", this lexicon disagrees:

"The LXX generally translates Olam by Aion which essentially has the same meaning. That neither the Hebrew or Greek word in itself contains the idea of endlessness is shown both by the fact that they sometimes refer to events or conditions that occurred at a definite point in the past, and also by the fact that it is thought desirable to repeat the word."

"... 'ad (q.v.) has substantially the same range of meaning as 'olam (usually
continuance into the future, but cf. Job 20:4)."

Harris, Archer, Waltke, Theological Wordbook Of The Old Testament, page 673.

 

[Der Alte]

Re the claim AD, OLAM, AION, AIONIOS have the inherent meaning of "only eternal", this lexicon disagrees:

First I did not say that " AD, OLAM, AION, AIONIOS have the inherent meaning of 'only eternal'" I said the words have the inherent meaning because most UR folks claim that it never, ever means "eternal" that it always means a finite period and I have proved from both the OT and NT that they must have that meaning or they could not be used with words like "immortality,""unchangeable,""incorruptible" etc. discussions which you continue to ignore.

"The LXX generally translates Olam by Aion which essentially has the same meaning. Than neither the Hebrew or Greek word in itself contains the idea of endlessness is shown both by the fact that they sometimes refer to events or conditions that occurred at a definite point in the past, and also by the fact that it is thought desirable to repeat the word."
"... 'ad (q.v.) has substantially the same range of meaning as 'olam (usually
continuance into the future, but cf. Job 20:4)."
Harris, Archer, Waltke, Theological Wordbook Of The Old Testament, page 673.

This is the ubiquitous out-of-context quote which makes it appear that the author is saying something different than what he intended. Lets read the complete article in-context.

Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) - 1631 - עולם
Hebrew Word: 'Lm
Strong's Cross Reference: None
Definition: III. Assumed root of the following.
Derivative TWOT Number: 1631a
Derivative Transliteration: 'olam
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference: 5769, 5865
Derivative Definition: forever, ever, everlasting evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world, etc. (RSV Similar in general, but substitutes always for in the world in Psa 73:12 and eternity for world in Ecc 3:11.) Probably derived from 'alam1, to hide, thus pointing to what is hidden in the distant future or in the distant past. The Ugaritic cognateis 'lm, eternity.
Though 'olam is used more than three hundred [300] times to indicate indefinite continuance into the very distant future the meaning of the word is not confined to the future. There are at least twenty instances where it clearly refers to the past. Such usages generally point to something that seems long ago, but rarely if ever refer to a limitless past, Thus in Deu 32:7 and Job 22:15 it may refer to the time of one's elders. In Pro 22:28; Pro 23:10; Jer 6:16; Jer 18:15; Jer 28:8 it points back somewhat farther. In Isa 58:12; Isa 61:4; Mic 7:14; Mal 3:4, and in the Aramaic of Ezr 4:15, Ezr 4:19 it clearly refers to the time just before the exile. In 1Sa 27:8, in Isa 51:9 and Isa 63:9, Isa 63:11 and perhaps Eze 36:2, it refers to the events of the exodus from Egypt. In Gen 6:4 it points to the time shortly before the flood. None of these past references has in it the idea of endlessness or limitlessness, but each points to a time long before the immediate knowledge of those living. In Isa 64:3 the KJV translates the word "beginning of the world." In Psa 73:12 and Ecc 3:11 it is translated "world, " suggesting the beginning of a usage that developed greatly in post biblical times.
Jenni holds that its basic meaning "most distant times" can refer to either the remote past or to the future or to both as due to the fact that it does not occur independently (as a subject or as an object) but only in connection with prepositions indicating direction (min "since, " 'ad "until, " 1, "up to") or as an adverbial accusative of direction or finally as the modifying genitive in the construct relationship. In the latter instance 'olam can express by itself the whole range of meanings denoted by all the prepositions "since, until, to the most distant time"; i.e. it assumes the meaning "(unlimited, incalculable) continuance, eternity." (THAT II, p. 230) J. Barr (Biblical Words for Time ( 21969), p. 73) says, "We might therefore best state the "basic meaning" as a kind of range between 'remotest time' and 'perpetuity"'. But as shown above it is sometimes used of a not-so-remote past. For the meaning of the word in its attributive use we should note the designation of the Lord as 'el 'olam, "The Eternal God" (Gen 21:33).
The LXX generally translates 'olam by aion which has essentially the same range of meaning. That neither the Hebrew nor the Greek word in itself contains the idea of endlessness is shown both by the fact that they sometimes refer to events or conditions that occurred at a definite point in the past, and also by the fact that sometimes it is thought desirable to repeat the word, not merely saying "forever, " but ""forever and ever.
Both words came to be used to refer to a long age or period-an idea that is sometimes expressed in English by "world." Post biblical Jewish writings refer to the present world of toil as ha'olam hazzeh and to the world to come as ha'olam habba'.
'ad (q.v.) has substantially the same range of meaning as 'olam (usually long continuance into the future, but cf. Job 20:4).
Bibliography: Snaith, Norman H., "Time in the Old Testament, " in Promise and Fulfillment, Essays Presented to Professor S. H. Hooke, ed. F. F. Bruce, Edinburgh: Clark, 1963, pp. 175-86. Jenni, E., "Das wort 'olam im AT, " Diss, Theol. Basel 1953 ( ZAW 64:197-248; 65:1-35). A.A.M.
​

 

[ClementofA]

This is the ubiquitous out-of-context quote which makes it appear that the author is saying something different than what he intended. Lets read the complete article in-context.

​

The context doesn't change the meaning of what was said. This is what the author both said and meant:

"The LXX generally translates Olam by Aion which essentially has the same meaning. Than neither the Hebrew or Greek word in itself contains the idea of endlessness is shown both by the fact that they sometimes refer to events or conditions that occurred at a definite point in the past, and also by the fact that it is thought desirable to repeat the word."

"... 'ad (q.v.) has substantially the same range of meaning as 'olam (usually
continuance into the future, but cf. Job 20:4)."

Harris, Archer, Waltke, Theological Wordbook Of The Old Testament, page 673.

 

[ClementofA]

First I did not say that " AD, OLAM, AION, AIONIOS have the inherent meaning of 'only eternal'"

Here is what you've said:

.....The verse which supposedly says "Olam and further' is faulty the word translated "further" is "ad" it means only eternal, it never means further.

The source i quoted disagrees with you:

"The LXX generally translates Olam by Aion which essentially has the same meaning. Than neither the Hebrew or Greek word in itself contains the idea of endlessness is shown both by the fact that they sometimes refer to events or conditions that occurred at a definite point in the past, and also by the fact that it is thought desirable to repeat the word."

"... 'ad (q.v.) has substantially the same range of meaning as 'olam (usually
continuance into the future, but cf. Job 20:4)."

Harris, Archer, Waltke, Theological Wordbook Of The Old Testament, page 673.

Similarly, Greek scholar Marvin Vincent wrote:

"The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."

"...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."

".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

"...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."

"...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."

Word Studies in the New Testament

http://bibleone.net/Aion-Aionios.pdf

 

[Der Alte]

The context doesn't change the meaning of what was said. This is what the author both said and meant:.

Does or does not the TWOT article on "olam" also list these definitions, "forever,""ever,""everlasting""evermore,"" perpetual,""eternity,"unlimited, incalculable, continuance,""forever and ever?" A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

[HighCherub]

The whole reason for the Crucifixion was because God cannot justify evil without payment. That is why, before Christ, God demanded an eye for an eye on account of sin.

The Crucifixion was meant for the Elect- the Bible is ripe with it, but people like to hinge on a handful of passionate phrases not meant to be taken to the full extent that universalists take them.

There is no point in evangelizing, following traditions, sacrifice or rebuke if everyone is going to be saved. It makes this world existing in the way it exists from Jesus to Revelation completely pointless.

 

[ClementofA]

There is no point in evangelizing, following traditions, sacrifice or rebuke if everyone is going to be saved.

That's as illogical as saying it doesn't matter when someone dies if they go straight to heaven forever or burn in hell for 10 billion years, because "everyone is going to be saved".

The Calvinist Universalist

 

[HighCherub]

That's as illogical as saying it doesn't matter when someone dies if they go straight to heaven forever or burn in hell for 10 billion years, because "everyone is going to be saved".

What's logical is that if eternal salvation is a reward, than eternal damnation is a punishment.

 

[ClementofA]

What's logical is that if eternal salvation is a reward, than eternal damnation is a punishment.

Matt.25:46:

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."


The vast majority of learned sources agree the word aionios, & the noun, aion, can refer to a duration which is of a limited time period that has an end. The real issue here, then, is whether or not the word means a limited time period in the context of Matthew 25:31-46 in regards to punishment. That is something that should be a matter of serious study rather than assumptions based on what my pastor or bible study group assumes to be the case.

Considering the Greek word kolasis ("punishment", Mt.25:46, KJV) can refer to a corrective punishment, that should tell the reader of Matthew 25:46 what the possible duration of aionios ("everlasting", KJV) is & that it may refer to a finite punishment. Why? Because since it is corrective, it is with the purpose of bringing the person corrected to salvation. Oncce saved the person no longer has need of such a punishment & it ends. So it isn't "everlasting". [Or if it "everlasting", it is only everlasting in its positive effect]. Therefore this passage could just as easily support universalism as anything else.

From a review of a book by Ilaria Ramelli, namely The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp):

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology


"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."
http://journalofanalytictheology.com/jat/index.php/jat/article/viewFile/jat.2015-3.181913130418a/271

"Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases.5 However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when aionios referred to the duration of Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, aionios referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether."

"Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called “great,” the word “great” is neither eternal nor divine. The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, “great” becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that aion must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel and the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles, or the God of you and me. Though He is called the God of the “ages,” He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages."

"In addition, Augustine’s reasoning does not hold up in light of Ro. 16:25, 26 and Hab. 3:6. Here, in both cases, the same word is used twice—with God and with something temporal. “In accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, yet manifested now…according to the injunction of the eonian God” (Ro. 16:25, 26 CLT). An eonian secret revealed at some point cannot be eternal even though it is revealed by the eonian God. Eonian does not make God eternal, but God makes eonian eternal. “And the everlasting mountains were scattered.…His ways are everlasting” (Hab. 3:6). Mountains are not eternal, though they will last a very long time. God’s ways however, are eternal, because He is eternal."
Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jude 7 speaks of the fire that destroyed Sodom as an example of "aionion fire" (the same words aionion fire used in Mt.25:41, compare v.46). Did Sodom burn forever?

Philo was contemporary with Christ & we have this translation of his words which use the same words Christ used at Mt.25:46:

"It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of
those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment [kolasis aiónios] from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of
conduct." Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments

In the year 544 A.D. the emperor Justinian wrote a letter:

"It is conceded that the half-heathen emperor held to the idea of endless misery, for he proceeds not only to defend, but to define the doctrine.2 He does not merely say, "We believe in aionion kolasin," for that was just what Origen himself taught. Nor does he say "the word aionion has been misunderstood; it denotes endless duration," as he would have said, had there been such a disagreement. But, writing in Greek, with all the words of that abundant language from which to choose, he says: "The holy church of Christ teaches an endless aeonian (ateleutetos aionios) life to the righteous, and endless (ateleutetos) punishment to the wicked." If he supposed aionios denoted endless duration, he would not have added the stronger word to it. The fact that he qualified it by ateleutetos, demonstrated that as late as the sixth century the former word did not signify endless duration.
Chapter 21 - Unsuccessful Attempts to Suppress Universalism

If Christ meant "endless" punishment at Mt.25:46, why use the ambiguous aionios? Why not instead use the word aperantos ("endless"; 1 Timothy 1:4)? Or why not use the words "no end" as in Lk1:33b: "And of His kingdom there will be no end"? The answer seems obvious.

Early Church Father universalists who were Greek scholars & many others of the time did not see Mt.25:46 contradicting their belief:

"The first Christians, it will be seen, said in their creeds, "I believe in the æonian life;" later, they modified the phrase "æonian life," to "the life of the coming æon," showing that the phrases are equivalent. But not a word of endless punishment. "The life of the age to come" was the first Christian creed, and later, Origen himself (an Early Church Father universalist) declares his belief in æonian punishment, and in æonian life beyond. How, then, could æonian punishment have been regarded as endless?"
Another Aionios Thread - These Things Go On Forever


"Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "

Chapter Nine


As regards the fate of the Jewish people, early in the gospel of Saint Matthew Jesus' word does correct them re the false teachings of endless torments and annihilation, as follows:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

"Isn't it ironic that the passage most often used to support everlasting punishment is in fact one strongly opposing it when accurately understood?" (Tom Talbott, author of "The Inescapable Love of God").

Thomas Talbott - Wikipedia
http://www.thomastalbott.com/index.php