Jesus4Madrid
Orthodox Christian
- Jul 21, 2011
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Ok, thanks for the clarification on the Vincentian Canon. I see what you are saying and it is perfectly logical according to the Canon.I apologize for my harsh words before. I spoke (wrote) in frustration and not in charity.
Gotcha. I don't know much about Scandinavian Lutherans, but I do know that German Lutheranism stayed incredibly high-church and liturgical for quite a while. Pastor Weedon, who I cited in the OP (he's the one I got the quotes from) did his studies focused on 16th century liturgical practice and says that it was normal to have all the "bells and smells" of traditional Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy amongst Lutherans.
And yeah, better dialogue between the early Lutherans and the east would have been wonderful...
Fair enough.
Though it is worth noting the (uniquely?) Lutheran distinction between homologomena and antilegomena. But that's for another day as well.
For what it's worth, Calvin acknowledged that his position on the Eucharist was based on both scripture and reason. Ultimately, reason superseded Scripture because the argument became "it's not possible for Christ's body which is in heaven to also be here!"
And I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Zwingli's view was based on a dream which told him that the Eucharist was just spiritual presence of Christ and not his physical, true, body and blood.
Perhaps you can enlighten me. I'm under the impression that the Vincentian Canon is a principle for determining doctrine, that we only accept those things which were believed by all, in all places, at all times. If that's the case, then I'm showing how saintly figures believe something that (to me, initially) seemed to be sola scriptura. If my understanding of Vincentian Canon is correct, that means one of three things (maybe more, idk):
Is that not what St Vincent taught? I'm probably mistaken here, because I've never really done a formal study of him or what the Vincentian Canon actually means. So if you can clarify, that'd be great.
- sola scriptura was believed by all, in all places, at all times
- sola scriptura is a view, but not the universal view, in which case neither SS nor the EO view was held by all, in all places, at all times
- sola scriptura is not what they actually teach in these quotes
You have a good point. Lutherans would probably address this in two ways:
We recognize the value of tradition, and definitely don't throw it out. We just say that, since the fathers are not always consistent with themselves or each other, we take their teachings with a grain of salt, and if something goes against scripture, we reject it. I think you Orthodox would agree with that in principle, right? But you would, of course, say that we have to take our teachings with a grain of salt, and if something goes against tradition, we should reject our interpretation.
- Primarily, we would make the homologomena/antilegomena distinction that I mentioned above
- Secondarily, we might split hairs and say that the church was inerrant but not infallible when it passed on the canon
Then again, Lutherans would agree with that in principle too, lol
I'm thinking now that our difference lies in our ecclesiology primarily, not in our hermeneutics. It's not a matter of Scripture vs. Tradition for either of us, it's a question of: "what is the church, and can it have false teachings?" Lutherans would say that it can and point to the errors of Rome. Orthodox can say that it can't.
St. John Chrysostom, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Basil the Great, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, and St. John Damascene are definitely not promulgating Sola Scriptura. They were fully Orthodox in ecclesiology, sacramental theology and liturgy (two of those being authors of our liturgies). One does not arrive theologically at these positions through Sola Scriptura. For example, St. Basil's liturgy drew from Tradition not found in Scripture (especially that of St. James). Likewise, St. John Chrysostom drew from St. Basil.
What they are saying is that Scripture forms a unique material authority with which to judge the orthodoxy of something. There are other Fathers (e.g St. Irenaeus) who say the same. That's not Sola Scriptura. What they are not arguing is the perspicuity of Scripture or the right of an individual's private judgement to trump the formal theological authority of the Church in interpreting Scripture.
It's like saying that the US Constitution is the law of the land in the US--the material authority--but that the Supreme Court is necessary to adjudicate it--the formal authority--when it is unclear. We Orthodox trust the Church to adjudicate Scripture, whereas advocates of Sola Scriptura do not.
I agree that the key difference between Lutheranism and Orthodoxy lies in ecclesiology. I remember reading St. Ignatius of Antioch and thinking "he doesn't understand the teachings of St. Paul" on Church government (Lord have mercy). Accepting that the Church was always hierarchical in ecclesiology was the last big barrier for me on the road to becoming Orthodox. Yes, errors have arisen, even amongst a number Bishops during the Arian controversy, but the "gates of hell shall not prevail" (Mt 16.19).
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