The Law is not Abrogated: What does this mean?

[stuart lawrence]

Romans 14 does not say anything about "unclean".
Rather it discusses the idea of being vegetarian (so then no meat at all.. not just clean meat. People who eat lamb and beef are not vegetarian) vs meat-eating. It has to do with the 1 Cor 10 problem where Paul says "I would never eat meat again if it causes my brother to stumble" -- has nothing at all to do with Lev 11 and clean vs unclean -- (eating diseased meat, rats cats etc --vs-- eating beef that is not diseased.)

I know and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself, but to him that esteemeth anything to be unclean, for him it is unclean
Rom 14:14

You know, in my youth I was a member of a certain denomination. I was convinced it was the only true first century church. And I made scripture fit the denominational beliefs.
Now I don't, but many still do

 

[stuart lawrence]

BobRyan said: ↑
If Exodus 20, Deut 5, Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 are all removed from the first five books ...the Torah, it is news to me. I will grant you that.



You are free of course to divide and slice it up as per whatever preference you choose.

I was just pointing out that by definition Torah means the first 5 books of the Bible and there is no statement within that concept that says "except Exodus 20, Deut 5, Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5" that I have ever found as a common definition for the term. IF it is yours you are welcomed to it of course.

Well I haven't found any SDA with trimmed beards!

 

[pescador]

nice.. but not a commandment-deleting text.

If you rest from trying to keep God's commandments you're free of the law. The commandments remain for the Jews.

 

[BobRyan]

I know and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself, but to him that esteemeth anything to be unclean, for him it is unclean
Rom 14:14

You know, in my youth I was a member of a certain denomination. I was convinced it was the only true first century church. And I made scripture fit the denominational beliefs.
Now I don't, but many still do

I stand corrected - Rom 14 does mention the term - post is updated as follows.

=============================

As one who is in the Lord Jesus I am convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean then for him it is unclean
Rom14:14
All food is clean but it is wrong for a man to eat something that causes another to stumble
Rom14:20

Whether paul did or didn't eat the Levitical unclean foods, he plainly believed as a Christian all food was clean

Romans 14 does mention "unclean" the same way that Mark 7 mentions it - where the unclean food in that case is wheat products.

2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.

In the same way "vegetarian vs meat eating" is not even a debate in the OT. The entire Romans 14 topic is about the issue of 1 Cor 10 - eating what is offered to idols and trying to avoid it entirely by being vegetarian.

It discusses the idea of being vegetarian (so then no meat at all.. not just clean meat. People who eat lamb and beef are not vegetarian) vs meat-eating. It has to do with the 1 Cor 10 problem where Paul says "I would never eat meat again if it causes my brother to stumble" -- has nothing at all to do with Lev 11 and clean vs unclean -- (eating diseased meat, rats cats etc --vs-- eating beef that is not diseased.)

 

[BobRyan]

If you rest from trying to keep God's commandments you're free of the law.

"what matters is KEEPING God's Commandments" 1 Cor 7:19

"this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Bible details matter.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I stand corrected - Rom 14 does mention the term - post is updated as follows.

=============================



Romans 14 does mention "unclean" the same way that Mark 7 mentions it - where the unclean food in that case is wheat products.

2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.

In the same way "vegetarian vs meat eating" is not even a debate in the OT. The entire Romans 14 topic is about the issue of 1 Cor 10 - eating what is offered to idols and trying to avoid it entirely by being vegetarian.

It discusses the idea of being vegetarian (so then no meat at all.. not just clean meat. People who eat lamb and beef are not vegetarian) vs meat-eating. It has to do with the 1 Cor 10 problem where Paul says "I would never eat meat again if it causes my brother to stumble" -- has nothing at all to do with Lev 11 and clean vs unclean -- (eating diseased meat, rats cats etc --vs-- eating beef that is not diseased.)

Paul states:

ALL( ALL) food is clean.
Meat is food!

ALL food us clean.

 

[BobRyan]

Well I haven't found any SDA with trimmed beards!

as I said - not only do SDAs recognize the difference between ceremonial and moral law in the Torah - so also do most of the pro-Sunday scholars as noted in my signature line.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

Moral law defines what sin is - and it includes God's Ten Commandments

 

[BobRyan]

Paul states:

ALL( ALL) food is clean.
Meat is food!

ALL food us clean.

Paul never says "all food is clean"

Lev 11 condemns the eating of diseased meat, rats and cats... Christ did not die on the cross so Christians could eat diseased meat. That is not remotely related to the Gospel "good news". There is no "good news you can eat diseased meat" in all of scripture.

 

[stuart lawrence]

as I said - not only do SDAs recognize the difference between ceremonial and moral law in the Torah - so also do most of the pro-Sunday scholars as noted in my signature line.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

Moral law defines what sin is - and it includes God's Ten Commandments

Hows clean/ unclean food part of the moral law?
Jesus said it is what comes out if the heart that pollutes, not what goes into the body

 

[stuart lawrence]

Paul never says "all food is clean"

Lev 11 condemns the eating of diseased meat, rats and cats... Christ did not die on the cross so Christians could eat diseased meat. That is not remotely related to the Gospel "good news". There is no "good news you can eat diseased meat" in all of scripture.

Rom14:20


ALL food is clean

 

[BobRyan]

Hows clean/ unclean food part of the moral law?
Jesus said it is what comes out if the heart that pollutes, not what goes into the body

Moral law defines sin. sin will get you the lake of fire as the judgment by God.

Isaiah 66 says this - about eating rats/mice and judgment in the lake of fire.


15 For behold, the Lord will come with fire
And with His chariots, like a whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by His sword
The Lord will judge all flesh;
And the slain of the Lord shall be many.
17 “Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves,
To go to the gardens
After an idol in the midst,
Eating swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse,
Shall be consumed together,” says the Lord.

 

[BobRyan]

Rom14:20
ALL food is clean

Rom 14:20 20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

Witchcraft is not pure nor is diseased meat, nor cannibalism nor... The context of Romans 14:20 cannot be deleted and still get the right meaning from it.

"in the text" of Romans 14 it is about vegetarian vs meat

2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.

--- it does not even discuss the idea of one-kind-of-meat vs another-kind-of-meat.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Moral law defines sin. sin will get you the lake of fire as the judgment by God.

Isaiah 66 says this - about eating rats/mice and judgment in the lake of fire.


15 For behold, the Lord will come with fire
And with His chariots, like a whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by His sword
The Lord will judge all flesh;
And the slain of the Lord shall be many.
17 “Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves,
To go to the gardens
After an idol in the midst,
Eating swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse,
Shall be consumed together,” says the Lord.

Let's stick with what the new testament says. I'm not under the OC:

Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him unclean. For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach and then out of his body.

What comes out of a man is what makes him unclean. For from within, out of men's hearts come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils cone from inside and make a man unclean.
Mark7:18-23

 

[stuart lawrence]

Rom 14:20 20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

Witchcraft is not pure nor is diseased meat, nor cannibalism nor... The context of Romans 14:20 cannot be deleted and still get the right meaning from it.

I'm afraid that's a desperate response

 

[SAAN]

The death of Christ has removed the distinction between clean and unclean, read Acts 10. I eat pork and shellfish all the time, I also eat fruits and vegetables and even cereal. All things are lawful to the believer in Christ.

Take Peters vision in Acts 10

Acts 10:10-14
10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”

14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.”

Jesus has been dead now for probably a couple of decades and Peter still isnt eating unclean foods, because they knew the dietary laws WERE NOT canceled, so when you get to Acts 10:28 the vision was revealed for this to be about Gentiles and not referring to them as unclean.

 

[SAAN]

Paul states:

ALL( ALL) food is clean.
Meat is food!

ALL food us clean.

In context he was talking about meats sacrificed to idols, not whether or not pork and shrimp was clean or not, NO ONE has authority to change any commandment of God, except God himself, as Jesus just upheld the commandments or expanded on them.

 

[stuart lawrence]

In context he was talking about meats sacrificed to idols, not whether or not pork and shrimp was clean or not, NO ONE has authority to change any commandment of God, except God himself, as Jesus just upheld the commandments or expanded on them.

No he wasn't, that wasn't mentioned in rom ch14

 

[stuart lawrence]

In context he was talking about meats sacrificed to idols, not whether or not pork and shrimp was clean or not, NO ONE has authority to change any commandment of God, except God himself, as Jesus just upheld the commandments or expanded on them.

So did the council of Jerusalem in Acts ch15 give gentiles a licence to sin in your view?

 

[BobRyan]

No he wasn't, that wasn't mentioned in rom ch14

Romans 14 discusses eating meat vs being vegetarian.

It does not discuss eating rats vs eating beef -- instead of "two kinds of meat" it discusses meat vs no meat at all. THAT is the content and context of Romans 14 - just like it is in 1Cor 10

 

[BobRyan]

So did the council of Jerusalem in Acts ch15 give gentiles a licence to sin in your view?

Why would you suggest that? Did they delete some command of God in Acts 15???