The Law is not Abrogated: What does this mean?

[BobRyan]

Well everyone I have chatted to on websites such as these does not include the moral law in Torah. Hopefully someone in this thread can confirm either way the truth of that

If Exodus 20, Deut 5, Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 are all removed from the first five books ...the Torah, it is news to me. I will grant you that.

 

[BobRyan]

He is referring to the ten, and is off topic.

Was your own reference to the Sabbath Commandment - within the TEN Commandments "off topic"??

 

[BobRyan]

quoting the verses is not an explanation why.

It is if you read the words in the verses.

 

[BobRyan]

As the OP states in the first sentence, for this thread, the Law will mean the full 613, not the 10.

has Deut 5, Lev 19:18, Deut 6:5, Exodus 20 all been "removed"??? If so then you were "off topic" when you talked about the Sabbath Commandment inside the Ten Commandments.

Is this some sort of game? or did you mean to say "ceremonial law -- I only want to talk about th ceremonial law on this thread"???

 

[BobRyan]

from your OP -- this topic includes discussion of ...

The Torah and its 613 laws was given to Israel, not to the Nations. Over and over it says, "And the LORD said to Moses, Speak to the Children of ISRAEL," not to the world, Israel. Sure there are some rules that are universal: don't steal, don't murder, don't commit adultery. These laws are discussed in the NT. But the laws which aren't universal but are in the Torah are only for Israel. These are laws like keeping a Saturday Shabbat, not eating shellfish,

All of which are moral laws... and very clearly the Sabbath commandment is inside the TEN Commandments --

The fact that there "exists an opinion" on your topic in the OP - that "you do not also hold" is not the definition of "off topic".

 

[Dkh587]

So it's a sin for an Israelite to have sex with their wife during her monthly flow, but it's okay and NOT a sin for a "gentile believer"?

Also, it's a sin, an abomination, and defiling to eat pork, shellfish(or anything unclean) to the Israelites. Isn't it still a sin, abominable & defiling for a "gentile believer" to eat these same things? Why is it okay for "gentile believers" to eat unclean abominations and defile their bodies, yet for the Israelites, it's not?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Why then were the believing Jews in Jerusalem all "zealous for Torah"? Why did Paul testify before Festus that he kept every Jewish law?

As one who is in the Lord Jesus I am convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean then for him it is unclean
Rom14:14
All food is clean but it is wrong for a man to eat something that causes another to stumble
Rom14:20

Whether paul did or didn't eat the Levitical unclean foods, he plainly believed as a Christian all food was clean

 

[stuart lawrence]

If Exodus 20, Deut 5, Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 are all removed from the first five books ...the Torah, it is news to me. I will grant you that.

Well for clarification, concerning my initial post, I was referring to torah, or the law given at Sanai apart from the moral law.
That's all that needs to be understood isn't it?

 

[The Times]

The Sabbath is applied differently, within the context of the new form of worship, within the inner temple of the Holy Ghost.

 

[listed]

So it's a sin for an Israelite to have sex with their wife during her monthly flow, but it's okay and NOT a sin for a "gentile believer"?

Also, it's a sin, an abomination, and defiling to eat pork, shellfish(or anything unclean) to the Israelites. Isn't it still a sin, abominable & defiling for a "gentile believer" to eat these same things? Why is it okay for "gentile believers" to eat unclean abominations and defile their bodies, yet for the Israelites, it's not?

Some of your post applies only to Israel. If it weren't mixed I'd say most instead of some.

 

[bloodygrace]

So it's a sin for an Israelite to have sex with their wife during her monthly flow, but it's okay and NOT a sin for a "gentile believer"?

Also, it's a sin, an abomination, and defiling to eat pork, shellfish(or anything unclean) to the Israelites. Isn't it still a sin, abominable & defiling for a "gentile believer" to eat these same things? Why is it okay for "gentile believers" to eat unclean abominations and defile their bodies, yet for the Israelites, it's not?

The death of Christ has removed the distinction between clean and unclean, read Acts 10. I eat pork and shellfish all the time, I also eat fruits and vegetables and even cereal. All things are lawful to the believer in Christ.

 

[pescador]

I want to respond to more of what OpenHeart said earlier...

"Torah is what holds Jews together as a People. If a Jew stops observing the Torah, his family becomes confused about what it means to be a Jew. His kids usually intermarry, and his grandchildren do not identify as Jews. IOW his entire line is lost to Israel. It is a form of slow genocide."

My parents were liberal Jews who definitely stopped observing Torah (as well as most other Jewish customs). I became confused about what it meant to be a Jew, and eventually became an atheist. I "intermarried", i.e., I married a Gentile young woman, and my children do not identify as Jews. As a result, my entire line is lost to Israel.

So, what are the problems? None. A few years after we were married Jesus miraculously healed me in the hospital and I became a Christian. I am not a Jew in any sense of the word, unless you consider Jews to somehow be different people than others. Paul wrote "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." Since we have a new covenant with God the old distinctions between people have disappeared. There is no hierarchy and no separation any longer.

If my entire line is lost to Israel -- what are we, racehorses? -- it makes no difference. None.

 

[pescador]

So it's a sin for an Israelite to have sex with their wife during her monthly flow, but it's okay and NOT a sin for a "gentile believer"?

Also, it's a sin, an abomination, and defiling to eat pork, shellfish(or anything unclean) to the Israelites. Isn't it still a sin, abominable & defiling for a "gentile believer" to eat these same things? Why is it okay for "gentile believers" to eat unclean abominations and defile their bodies, yet for the Israelites, it's not?

"[Jesus] said to them, “Are you so foolish? Don’t you understand that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him? For it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and then goes out into the sewer.” (This means all foods are clean.)" Mark 7:18-19

 

[pescador]

The Sabbath is applied differently, within the context of the new form of worship, within the inner temple of the Holy Ghost.

"For the one who enters God’s rest has also rested from his works, just as God did from his own works." Hebrews 4:10

 

[Dkh587]

The death of Christ has removed the distinction between clean and unclean, read Acts 10. I eat pork and shellfish all the time, I also eat fruits and vegetables and even cereal. All things are lawful to the believer in Christ.

Peter's vision in Acts 10 is not about food.

All things aren't lawful - for example, being a harlot. since you say all things are lawful, does that mean it's okay to be a harlot? What about having sex with animals? Why or why not?

You say "all things are lawful for believers in Christ", but wouldn't that mean it's okay to worship idols, take God's name in vain, commit adultery etc? Where is the line drawn for a believer in Christ, to whom "all things are lawful"?

 

[BobRyan]

Peter's vision in Acts 10 is not about food.

All things aren't lawful - for example, being a harlot. since you say all things are lawful, does that mean it's okay to be a harlot? What about having sex with animals? Why or why not?

You say "all things are lawful for believers in Christ", but wouldn't that mean it's okay to worship idols, take God's name in vain, commit adultery etc? Where is the line drawn for a believer in Christ, to whom "all things are lawful"?

Indeed good points all - and for example it is "still a sin to take God's name in vain"

 

[BobRyan]

"For the one who enters God’s rest has also rested from his works, just as God did from his own works." Hebrews 4:10

nice.. but not a commandment-deleting text.

 

[BobRyan]

The Sabbath is applied differently, within the context of the new form of worship, within the inner temple of the Holy Ghost.

Interesting opinion. You have free will of course and can choose as you wish.

Still.. that would be more doctrinal if it had been a quote of the actual Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
If Exodus 20, Deut 5, Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 are all removed from the first five books ...the Torah, it is news to me. I will grant you that.

Well for clarification, concerning my initial post, I was referring to torah, or the law given at Sanai apart from the moral law.
That's all that needs to be understood isn't it?

You are free of course to divide and slice it up as per whatever preference you choose.

I was just pointing out that by definition Torah means the first 5 books of the Bible and there is no statement within that concept that says "except Exodus 20, Deut 5, Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5" that I have ever found as a common definition for the term. IF it is yours you are welcomed to it of course.

 

[BobRyan]

As one who is in the Lord Jesus I am convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean then for him it is unclean
Rom14:14
All food is clean but it is wrong for a man to eat something that causes another to stumble
Rom14:20

Whether paul did or didn't eat the Levitical unclean foods, he plainly believed as a Christian all food was clean

Romans 14 does mention "unclean" the same way that Mark 7 mentions it - where the unclean food in that case is wheat products.

2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.

In the same way "vegetarian vs meat eating" is not even a debate in the OT. The entire Romans 14 topic is about the issue of 1 Cor 10 - eating what is offered to idols and trying to avoid it entirely by being vegetarian.

It discusses the idea of being vegetarian (so then no meat at all.. not just clean meat. People who eat lamb and beef are not vegetarian) vs meat-eating. It has to do with the 1 Cor 10 problem where Paul says "I would never eat meat again if it causes my brother to stumble" -- has nothing at all to do with Lev 11 and clean vs unclean -- (eating diseased meat, rats cats etc --vs-- eating beef that is not diseased.)