What does Scripture Mean About Perfection?

[Sola1517]

How on Earth does such a verse even make sense with your belief?

Rely on the Holy Spirit to change your attitude. That's the interpretation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I said they were all sins, NOT that all of them were equal.

Clearly there are differences in severity. But I see salvation as not being with or without sin, but being in the Covenant with God. Jer 31 says that in the New Covenant is forgiveness of sins. (and not the other way around)

Yes we can lose salvation; but it is like making a divorce. It has to be a conscious choice to abandon/void the covenant.

In what way can you do this? Is it by sinning or is it by willing just rejecting Jesus or both?
Is Jesus speaking to believer or unbelievers in Matthew 6:15?

Peter was discharging his own responsibility per Matt 28. He is INSTRUCTING those coming to faith as he was commanded to so.

No. He said to everyone to be baptized there. He was not talking to specific people in the crowd.

But that is NOT the jist of "sinless perfectionism." That says no sin whatsoever, no matter how minor or insignificant. Absolute perfection.

I am talking about the BIble's teaching on Sinless Perfection and not about what somebody else teaches on it. Please stick to my points that I have said from Scripture. Jesus says, "sin no more." I believe Jesus's words here apply to all of us as believers. The question is: Why do you think they do not apply?

Yes, certain sins if not repented from will lead us down the path to renouncing our faith and the New Covenant, either by word or deed. God alone knows where that point is for each of us.

But remember: "He is mindful of our frame, that we are but dust."

This is watering down of sin; I am sorry. The Bible is clear that sin can separate a believer from God and it does not take a renouncing of Christ to do that.

Here is a list of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith.

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (in the sense of like how one would misplace one's car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

• Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)

• Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)

• The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)

• Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)

• Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

• Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

• Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)

• Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14, 15)

• Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8, 9, 10)

• Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11)

• Balaam (Numbers chapters 22, 23, 24) (Numbers 31:8) (Joshua 13:22) (Jude 1:11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

• The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45, 46)

• Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)

• The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14, 15)

• Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)

• Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)

• Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5, 6)

• Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)

• Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)

• Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7, 8)

• The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
  (James 5:19, 20)

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).


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[pescador]

Rely on the Holy Spirit to change your attitude. That's the interpretation.

Sola1517, if you would, please use the reply link at the lower right of a post. Otherwise it's hard to follow the discussion.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Rely on the Holy Spirit to change your attitude. That's the interpretation.

Your not getting all of what it says plainly, though.

Why perfect holiness in the FEAR of God when there is nothing to fear from God?
It says cleanse yourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit and yet somehow you do not think it is saying ALL.

Please read 2 Corinthians 7:1 again very slowly.

I mean, do you even believe in perfecting holiness as the verse says?


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[Sola1517]

Sola1517, if you would, please use the reply link at the lower right of a post. Otherwise it's hard to follow the discussion.

Sorry.

 

[Sola1517]

Your not getting all of what it says plainly, though.

Why perfect holiness in the FEAR of God when there is nothing to fear from God?
It says cleanse yourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit and yet somehow you do not think it is saying ALL.

Please read 2 Corinthians 7:1 again very slowly.

I mean, do you even believe in perfecting holiness as the verse says?


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Whenever Scripture talks about the fear of God it means the love for God. I believe the term perfecting is simply becoming more like Jesus. Which you will never be perfectly.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Whenever Scripture talks about the fear of God it means the love for God. I believe the term perfecting is simply becoming more like Jesus. Which you will never be perfectly.

Paul says work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear?

Come on now.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Then there is the whole.... cleanse yourself from ALL.... I repeat....
ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit.

Yet, you somehow do not believe that in 2 Corinthians 7:1.
Also, how can one perfect holiness if they are also planning in their mind that it is okay to sin again with the thinking they are saved?
Doesn't make a lick of sense, if you ask me.

For that is what a denial of Sinless Perfection is all about.
It is saying that we will always keep sinning in this and yet no doubt we are saved.


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[Sola1517]

Paul says work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear?

Come on now.


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Because you're shaken by the grace that God has shown you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Because you're shaken by the grace that God has shown you.

Really?! It says work out your salvation with ... FEAR and... TREMBLING. It is not talking about some one time event here. Paul is saying this is what you have to WORK OUT.


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[Sola1517]

Really?! It says work out your salvation with ... FEAR and... TREMBLING. It is not talking about some one time event here. Paul is saying this is what you have to WORK OUT.


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Well I can't work it out. If what you're telling me is true then God expects every human to be as good as Jesus. That's like saying I'll pay off your million dollar debt you just have to pay me back. What good is it?

 

[Dave-W]

In what way can you do this? Is it by sinning or is it by willing just rejecting Jesus or both?

God only knows when that line has been crossed.
I do not intend to test that boundary.

Is Jesus speaking to believer or unbelievers in Matthew 6:15?

Believers of course.

No. He said to everyone to be baptized there. He was not talking to specific people in the crowd.

Of course he did. But does Peter have the authority to set salvic doctrine? No. That means that by instructing those hearing his words that Pentecost morning, he was fulfilling the Lord's command to him (and the rest of the 12) to baptize. That is a command in the Greek. "Let each of you be baptized" is NOT a command.
[QUOTE"]Jesus says, "sin no more." I believe Jesus's words here apply to all of us as believers. The question is: Why do you think they do not apply?[/QUOTE]
I agree that it does apply. But I see it as a goal to strive for, and not a current state of being.

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (in the sense of like how one would misplace one's car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God).

We are actually close to being in agreement there.

Balaam (Numbers chapters 22, 23, 24) (Numbers 31:8) (Joshua 13:22) (Jude 1:11)

He was a pagan and never saved to begin with.

Remember, salvation is by covenant, and there is NO INDICATION that he was ever a part of the Mosaic covenant. You cannot lose what you never had in the first place.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well I can't work it out. If what you're telling me is true then God expects every human to be as good as Jesus. That's like saying I'll pay off your million dollar debt you just have to pay me back. What good is it?

But the Bible says,... work out your salvation.


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[Sola1517]

But the Bible says,... work out your salvation.


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You're right, we probably don't need to talk. If you and I are the ones working out our salvation on our own we're going straight to hell. Cause you can't match Jesus in the perfection department.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God only knows when that line has been crossed.
I do not intend to test that boundary.

Then saying to others that they cannot stop sinning is not correct because you can lead them to think they can test those boundaries.

Believers of course.

So a believer can be unforgiven if they do not forgive as Jesus says then.

Of course he did. But does Peter have the authority to set salvic doctrine? No. That means that by instructing those hearing his words that Pentecost morning, he was fulfilling the Lord's command to him (and the rest of the 12) to baptize. That is a command in the Greek. "Let each of you be baptized" is NOT a command.

If God tells you to do something how is that not a command?
If you tell your child to do something, how is that not a command?
A command is something that is not a suggestion or an option.
Peter again told everyone.... everyone.... everyone to be baptized at Pentecost.
So this command applied to everyone there at Pentecost.

Jesus says, "sin no more." I believe Jesus's words here apply to all of us as believers. The question is: Why do you think they do not apply?

I do believe Jesus words that say "sin no more" applies, otherwise I would not have created this thread.

I agree that it does apply. But I see it as a goal to strive for, and not a current state of being.

If I told you to stop hitting my shoulder do you honestly think I would want to strive for that as your goal?
What if a girl says "no" to a man in regards to sex? Is the man to take that as meaning he should strive as his goal to not have sex? Do you think that the woman saying "no" to the man in regards to sex is her hoping he is doing so as a part of some goal? As if it would be okay if he missed the mark here? That is how silly your argument sounds.

We are actually close to being in agreement there.

How so?

He was a pagan and never saved to begin with.

Remember, salvation is by covenant, and there is NO INDICATION that he was ever a part of the Mosaic covenant. You cannot lose what you never had in the first place.

"Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam." (Jude 1:11). Remember, God trying to reason with Cain? He said he had a choice to do either good or sin in Genesis 4:7. Balaam also had a choice to do the right thing. It says greed was his error and it was not in him being exclusively a pagan. Why would God care about what a pagan says? Their words have no power to God.


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[Bible Highlighter]

You're right, we probably don't need to talk. If you and I are the ones working out our salvation on our own we're going straight to hell. Cause you can't match Jesus in the perfection department.

I did not write Philippians 2:12. Paul did. He said work out your salvation. You either accept that as Scripture or you don't accept that. The choice is yours.


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[JacksBratt]

Nothing that I do, or do not do, can save me or bring me salvation.

I am saved. I have salvation in what Christ did on the cross. I cannot live without sinning. I can try. I can aim to be perfect. I can try every moment of my life to be like Christ... but I will fail.

I do not need to be walking a life without sinning in order to be saved. When Christ looks at me... He sees His righteousness due to the fact that I am covered by His blood. In His eyes I am perfect.

If you tell me that you live, on this earth, from day to day, and have reached a point of never sinning...you are not being honest with me, yourself, God or the people that read this posting.

Billy Graham sins. John Hagee sins. The Pope sins. Chuck Sindol sins. Benny Hinn sins. Saint Theresa sinned up until the day she died.

Saying that I can live without sinning is a gospel of works. It is not biblical.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nothing that I do, or do not do, can save me or bring me salvation.

I am saved. I have salvation in what Christ did on the cross. I cannot live without sinning. I can try. I can aim to be perfect. I can try every moment of my life to be like Christ... but I will fail.

I do not need to be walking a life without sinning in order to be saved. When Christ looks at me... He sees His righteousness due to the fact that I am covered by His blood. In His eyes I am perfect.

If you tell me that you live, on this earth, from day to day, and have reached a point of never sinning...you are not being honest with me, yourself, God or the people that read this posting.

Billy Graham sins. John Hagee sins. The Pope sins. Chuck Sindol sins. Benny Hinn sins. Saint Theresa sinned up until the day she died.

Saying that I can live without sinning is a gospel of works. It is not biblical.

Actually, the true imputation of Jesus Christ's sacrifice is 1 John 1:7.

It says,

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

We see something similar in Romans 8:1,

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1).


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[pescador]

Nothing that I do, or do not do, can save me or bring me salvation.

I am saved. I have salvation in what Christ did on the cross. I cannot live without sinning. I can try. I can aim to be perfect. I can try every moment of my life to be like Christ... but I will fail.

I do not need to be walking a life without sinning in order to be saved. When Christ looks at me... He sees His righteousness due to the fact that I am covered by His blood. In His eyes I am perfect.

If you tell me that you live, on this earth, from day to day, and have reached a point of never sinning...you are not being honest with me, yourself, God or the people that read this posting.

Billy Graham sins. John Hagee sins. The Pope sins. Chuck Sindol sins. Benny Hinn sins. Saint Theresa sinned up until the day she died.

Saying that I can live without sinning is a gospel of works. It is not biblical.

Everybody should read this post!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Everybody should read this post!

And that is not the Bible.
It is his own words of pure imagination.

I quoted two verses that completely undoes this type of wrong thinking.


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