The Double Message of Eternal Security.

[1stcenturylady]

The OC laws of sin and death are not placed in your heart, really?
The law of sin and death was the TC
So

The OC laws of sin and death are not placed in our hearts, really?
Only love God and love your neighbour are the laws placed in our hearts?

The law of sin and death was the TC

If a Christian stole something, would they specifically be conscious they sinned because they committed theft, or because they had not loved as they should?

Through the law we become conscious of sin rom3:20

If a Christian coveted, would they specifically be conscious they sinned because they coveted, or simply be conscious they sinned because they didn't love as they should?

Through the law we become conscious of sin rom3:20

If a person committed adultery, would they specifically be conscious they sinned by committing adultery, or would they only be conscious they sinned because they had not loved as they should?
Through the law we become conscious of sin rom3:20

You are wrong, Jesus did not come to abolish the law. The law on stone/ TC got transferred to tablets of human hearts. 2,cor3:3.
But it is NOT a law if sin and death now, because:

Christ is the end of the law UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS for everyone who believeth
Rom10:4

Did you really read my post, or just the first paragraph. I told you what I believe, I'm not going to argue with you about it. Have a nice life, stuart.

 

[stuart lawrence]

That's pretty much what I believe. I think it allows us to recognize our sin more. In our conscious Ann's in our hearts.

The law in your heart also cuts out the removal of a law of righteousness being viewed as a licence to sin.
For if you wilfully go against what is in your heart your conscience must be seered. No one with the law in their heart could wilfully sin without conscience.
If anyone could happily sin as much as they liked, the law would not have been placed in their heart

 

[stuart lawrence]

Stuart, I've heard you talk about the laws on your heart. Who put them there? The Spirit, that's who. Those are the laws of the Spirit of life in Christ, to love God with all your heart, mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself. They are NOT the Old Covenant laws of sin and death.

Just responded to what you wrote. Not sure why it upsets you

 

[stuart lawrence]

Did you really read my post, or just the first paragraph. I told you what I believe, I'm not going to argue with you about it. Have a nice life, stuart.

BTW
The post of mine you responded to had little if anything to do with what I actually wrote I would say. I did respond to what you wrote.

 

[SBC]

You stated what it was. I'm only asking for verses that support your statement. Maybe don't talk if you don't want to back it up.

Maybe take what you are told and go verify it in scriptures.

Acts.17

1. [11] These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

And FYI: I don't ask people with bad theological understanding for advice. That's like banging ones head against the wall. I'd most likely ask my pastor, not you. So don't think I want your advice. I never asked for it and you are misrepresenting me.

It matters not to me whose "advice" you take.
Addressing you, is not for you exclusively; it is truths for others interested in hearing the truth.

John.11
[42] ... because of the people which stand by I said it..

IFY - it is not presented whose "advice" you're looking for.
What you are presenting is for someone to give you answers, instead of you searching the scriptures yourself, which according to scripture is noble.

So, no, I am not misrepresenting you; obviously it is not about you.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[stuart lawrence]

You are mistaken my friend. It is a sin for a Jew to kill just as much as it is a sin for a Gentile to kill. Israel was given the oracles of God, not to bury them deep in the soil like the wicked servant. They were to go out to every Nation preaching God's great wonders.

• Chronicles 16:24 “Declare his glory among the heathen; his marvellous works among all nations.”
• Psalms 96:3 “Declare his glory among the heathen, his wonders among all people.”

The Jews, who are still under the Law will not be saved. John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” Jesus told them, their father was the devil. A Jew without Christ has no eternal life.

You are correct, Christ did not abolish the Law. It has been a tutor, teaching us that we are wretched. It has, it always will point us to Christ. We do not find righteousness by following it though. Read Galatians, Paul makes that abundantly clear, James makes it clear. Our righteousness is in Christ, our faith in Him. 1 Corinthians 1:30 “But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:”

What is being taught here is, the Holy Spirit and Christians follow the Law. When we have stopped sinning against the Law, we are than no longer under the Law. When we stop sinning by following the Law, we become righteous.

It may be MOOT to you, you should tell that to Paul.

In Christ
Daniel

Wouldn't you say the OC would be preferable to some peoples version of the new one?
Under the OC, you weren't thrown out of it and condemned if you failed to be sinless.
But some will tell you, you can only be born again and under the NC if you don't commit sin. Therefore they believe you must be sinless to be under the NC.
Why would God send his Son to suffer such agony, simply to usher in a harder covenant than the old one no one could be truly righteous under in the first place?

 

[SBC]

You are mistaken my friend.

No.

It is a sin for a Jew to kill just as much as it is a sin for a Gentile to kill.

I said nothing about killing being or not being a sin of a Jew or Gentile.
I was speaking of commandments.

You brought up #6, then tell me I am mistaken when I said nothing about #6?

which BTW #6 is specifically is about murder, not killing.

Killing is not a sin. Murder is a sin. There is a difference.

OT original 10 commandments -
English #6 Ex 20: 13 You shall not murder.
Hebrew #6 לא תרצח

NT repeats 9 commandments -
#6 Matt 19: 18 ... Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder..

Israel was given the oracles of God, not to bury them deep in the soil like the wicked servant. They were to go out to every Nation preaching God's great wonders.

• Chronicles 16:24 “Declare his glory among the heathen; his marvellous works among all nations.”
• Psalms 96:3 “Declare his glory among the heathen, his wonders among all people.”

And? I didn't mention traditions of burial. So, how was I mistaken about something I did not mention?

The Jews, who are still under the Law will not be saved.

Jews ARE a race. Jews also have a religion. Some Jews "practice" the Jewish religion.
Some Jews do not "practice" the Jewish religion.

For a Jew WHO DOES "practice" the Jewish religion ~ now tells you who is a Jew; who IS "under the Law".
The Jewish Laws are Moses' Laws; which contains the original 10 commandments given Moses. As well it has 600+ others laws, that the Jews themselves decide which are suitable for their own teachings to obey.
The Jews ALSO have other books that are sacred recordings of for example; as you mentioned oracles from God, traditions, festivals, feasts, etc.

A Jew who is "under the Law" ~ is a Jew who is faithful ~ just as their Father Abraham was faithful.

And Yes, they shall be saved, just as Abraham is saved.

John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” Jesus told them, their father was the devil. A Jew without Christ has no eternal life.

Scripture is correct. However without understanding, you come to a wrong conclusion.

Examine: No man cometh unto the Father, but by Jesus ~ correct?
WHO is Jesus? Is Jesus the Word of God? I say YES.
Did Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, others, come to the Father, BY JESUS? Yes & No.

Did Abraham, etal, come to the Father BY THE WORD OF GOD? I say YES.
Had God pronounced a NAME for His Word? No.
Had God told OT men His Word would be called the Son of God? No.

Point being; it does not matter IF ANY OT men knew Jesus' Name.
ALL that come to the Father DO SO, "BY THE Word of God". Period.
The time frame - the knowledge - the understanding - the individual man has;
....does not matter.
....ALL that does matter is that "every man born of this earth" who desires to come
....unto the Heavenly God; MUST do so BY HIS Word.

You are correct, Christ did not abolish the Law. It has been a tutor, teaching us that we are wretched. It has, it always will point us to Christ. We do not find righteousness by following it though. Read Galatians, Paul makes that abundantly clear, James makes it clear. Our righteousness is in Christ, our faith in Him. 1 Corinthians 1:30 “But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:”

I don't claim to be a teacher. However I studied scripture for very lengthy hours, daily, for 5 consecutive years. A blessing for such opportunity and time available to do so.
And since that time, years ago, have spent an enormous amount of time, regularly, and daily, doing what I learned from God, Christ Jesus and King David; which is with zeal go directly to the source of understanding scriptures; which is the Heart of the Truth.
Most of what I say, particularly regarding scripture; is not a spur of the moment, top of my head guess. And most of what I say has very little to do with how a natural carnal mind logically concludes things. I would have no need of Gods understanding, if natural mindedness was sufficient. And thus much of what I say is outside of the normal natural mindedness conclusions.

So no I am not mistaken about something I did not specifically address to begin with.

What is being taught here is, the Holy Spirit and Christians follow the Law. When we have stopped sinning against the Law, we are than no longer under the Law. When we stop sinning by following the Law, we become righteous.

Gentiles were never under Hebrew Law.
The few "commandments" from the OT, that do apply to the Gentiles, are IN the NT.

We do not "STOP" sinning by following a Law.
The Law has NOT the power to stop a person from doing anything.
A man has NOT the power to stop from doing things OFTEN called a sin.

A Jew WHO continues to believe the Word of God "BY" obeying the Jewish Laws shall be saved, just as Abraham was.

A Gentile WHO believes the Word of God, AND calls on the Lord to CONFESS his belief in the Lord shall be saved, just as Jesus taught.

Jesus' blood is sufficient for forgiveness of ALL SINS for ALL men.
However; that forgiven is not RECEIVED by ALL MEN.
For a believing Jew; believing in the Word of God; Yes, they are forgiven.
For a believing Gentile; believing in the Word of God; Yes, they are forgiven.

And forgiveness is given, BEFORE, the Lord internally makes changes within the man.

1 Corinthians 1:30 “But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:”

It may be MOOT to you,

Don't be ridiculous with unfounded claims! WOW, is this Daniel or stuart ?

And WHEN exactly did I say ANYTHING whatsoever against 1 Cor 1:30?

QUOTE me!

you should tell that to Paul.

Paul didn't make an unfounded accusation; YOU DID!

God Bless,
SBC

 

[stuart lawrence]

Stuart, I've heard you talk about the laws on your heart. Who put them there? The Spirit, that's who. Those are the laws of the Spirit of life in Christ, to love God with all your heart, mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself. They are NOT the Old Covenant laws of sin and death.

But why do they seem the same? Thou shalt not kill? Love prevents that in your new nature. Thou shalt not steal? Self-control prevents that in your new nature. Thou shalt not commit adultery? Faithfulness prevents that in your new nature. Thou shalt not covet? Peace and contentment prevents that in your new nature. Thou shalt not lie? Kindness prevents that in your new nature. Honor your parents? Longsuffering and gentleness takes care of them for as long as they live. Believing in the name of Jesus Christ? Joy unspeakable!

Whatever you wouldn't want done to yourself, you do to others.

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Those who have to STRIVE to be all the above, don't have the law of the Spirit of life in Christ, they are still trying to keep the law of sin and death in THEIR OWN strength. Their carnal nature makes it hard.

Firstly, as I said, your above comment does not address the post you responded to
Secondly, I wrote a post to you on the law of the Spirit of life/ fruits of the Spirit. You did not respond to it. Yet you get upset I only partially responded to your above comment. Why should I fully respond to a comment of yours concerning the fruits of the spirit when you ignore mine?
Thirdly, your first paragraph is incorrect belief, as has clearly been pointed out to you.
Fourthly. Your second paragraph could be examples of what I previously wrote to you, when I said the fruits of the holy spirit are the embodiment of how God wants us to live and do not conflict with any of Gods good and holy laws.
Fifth. You CANNOT be following the law of the Spirit of life if you believe you are only justified as long as you do not commit sin. That is living under the law of sin and death. The law you in reality live under.
Sixth. Concerning the flesh being crucified. SBC has certainly not got his flesh crucified as is obvious from his posts in this thread.
If your flesh was truly crucified, you would have apologised to me yesterday. You had made inferences I believed what I did not, because you were getting disconcerted in discussion between us. Then you outrightly lied in claiming I denied following after the law of the Spirit of life. When you could produce no statement of mine to back up your false accusation, you would have immediatley apologised if you were anywhere near to your flesh being crucified. But you did not apologise did you. Why not? Pride. In fact if your flesh was crucified you could not have born false witness in the first place!
It is as I have repeatedly stated. People can make empty statements that have no bearing on the reality of their own lives. I have seen it over decades, at churches, and amongst members of my own family.
Such statements to me are seen through. I have too much experience of all of this not to see clearly concerning it.
In my view, you and others should pause and consider Jesus words:

The measure you use to judge others, will be used to judge you
Matt7:2

 

[SBC]

You are struggling with people disagreeing with your theology.

First of all you are not qualified to dictate my feelings, as if you know me.
Secondly, theology is study of Godly things. I don't see anyone even mentioning HOW I study, so your comment is not sensible.

I'm going to step away and discuss theology with someone who Doesn't take theology as an ego hit.

Again ~ your little snide ego comment is off base and unnecessary.
I agree you should be discussing scripture with others on a more elementary level.

Shouldn't be about you.

It isn't, nor is it about you.

I've been in this spot. Best to just walk away when someone takes theology personally as a direct personal attack.

Walk away. I agree.
No clue your inference that theology is a personal attack.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[SBC]

Matt; 7:
[2] For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Looking forward to this being accomplished!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Maybe take what you are told and go verify it in scriptures.

Acts.17

1. [11] These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

It matters not to me whose "advice" you take.
Addressing you, is not for you exclusively; it is truths for others interested in hearing the truth.

John.11
[42] ... because of the people which stand by I said it..

IFY - it is not presented whose "advice" you're looking for.
What you are presenting is for someone to give you answers, instead of you searching the scriptures yourself, which according to scripture is noble.

So, no, I am not misrepresenting you; obviously it is not about you.

God Bless,
SBC

I'm just setting your misconceptions straight.

 

[ToBeLoved]

First of all you are not qualified to dictate my feelings, as if you know me.
Secondly, theology is study of Godly things. I don't see anyone even mentioning HOW I study, so your comment is not sensible.



Again ~ your little snide ego comment is off base and unnecessary.
I agree you should be discussing scripture with others on a more elementary level.



It isn't, nor is it about you.



Walk away. I agree.
No clue your inference that theology is a personal attack.

God Bless,
SBC

You are the one who can't hold a conversation because your so upset. That doesn't sound like my issue.

You have a blessed life and try to chill a little.

 

[stuart lawrence]

The law in your heart also cuts out the removal of a law of righteousness being viewed as a licence to sin.
For if you wilfully go against what is in your heart your conscience must be seered. No one with the law in their heart could wilfully sin without conscience.
If anyone could happily sin as much as they liked, the law would not have been placed in their heart

Tobeloved. May I ask why you put prayers on the above post?

 

[Dan61861]

No.



I said nothing about killing being or not being a sin of a Jew or Gentile.
I was speaking of commandments.

You brought up #6, then tell me I am mistaken when I said nothing about #6?

which BTW #6 is specifically is about murder, not killing.

Killing is not a sin. Murder is a sin. There is a difference.

OT original 10 commandments -
English #6 Ex 20: 13 You shall not murder.
Hebrew #6 לא תרצח

NT repeats 9 commandments -
#6 Matt 19: 18 ... Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder..


And? I didn't mention traditions of burial. So, how was I mistaken about something I did not mention?



Jews ARE a race. Jews also have a religion. Some Jews "practice" the Jewish religion.
Some Jews do not "practice" the Jewish religion.

For a Jew WHO DOES "practice" the Jewish religion ~ now tells you who is a Jew; who IS "under the Law".
The Jewish Laws are Moses' Laws; which contains the original 10 commandments given Moses. As well it has 600+ others laws, that the Jews themselves decide which are suitable for their own teachings to obey.
The Jews ALSO have other books that are sacred recordings of for example; as you mentioned oracles from God, traditions, festivals, feasts, etc.

A Jew who is "under the Law" ~ is a Jew who is faithful ~ just as their Father Abraham was faithful.

And Yes, they shall be saved, just as Abraham is saved.



Scripture is correct. However without understanding, you come to a wrong conclusion.

Examine: No man cometh unto the Father, but by Jesus ~ correct?
WHO is Jesus? Is Jesus the Word of God? I say YES.
Did Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, others, come to the Father, BY JESUS? Yes & No.

Did Abraham, etal, come to the Father BY THE WORD OF GOD? I say YES.
Had God pronounced a NAME for His Word? No.
Had God told OT men His Word would be called the Son of God? No.

Point being; it does not matter IF ANY OT men knew Jesus' Name.
ALL that come to the Father DO SO, "BY THE Word of God". Period.
The time frame - the knowledge - the understanding - the individual man has;
....does not matter.
....ALL that does matter is that "every man born of this earth" who desires to come
....unto the Heavenly God; MUST do so BY HIS Word.



I don't claim to be a teacher. However I studied scripture for very lengthy hours, daily, for 5 consecutive years. A blessing for such opportunity and time available to do so.
And since that time, years ago, have spent an enormous amount of time, regularly, and daily, doing what I learned from God, Christ Jesus and King David; which is with zeal go directly to the source of understanding scriptures; which is the Heart of the Truth.
Most of what I say, particularly regarding scripture; is not a spur of the moment, top of my head guess. And most of what I say has very little to do with how a natural carnal mind logically concludes things. I would have no need of Gods understanding, if natural mindedness was sufficient. And thus much of what I say is outside of the normal natural mindedness conclusions.

So no I am not mistaken about something I did not specifically address to begin with.



Gentiles were never under Hebrew Law.
The few "commandments" from the OT, that do apply to the Gentiles, are IN the NT.

We do not "STOP" sinning by following a Law.
The Law has NOT the power to stop a person from doing anything.
A man has NOT the power to stop from doing things OFTEN called a sin.

A Jew WHO continues to believe the Word of God "BY" obeying the Jewish Laws shall be saved, just as Abraham was.

A Gentile WHO believes the Word of God, AND calls on the Lord to CONFESS his belief in the Lord shall be saved, just as Jesus taught.

Jesus' blood is sufficient for forgiveness of ALL SINS for ALL men.
However; that forgiven is not RECEIVED by ALL MEN.
For a believing Jew; believing in the Word of God; Yes, they are forgiven.
For a believing Gentile; believing in the Word of God; Yes, they are forgiven.

And forgiveness is given, BEFORE, the Lord internally makes changes within the man.





Don't be ridiculous with unfounded claims! WOW, is this Daniel or stuart ?

And WHEN exactly did I say ANYTHING whatsoever against 1 Cor 1:30?

QUOTE me!



Paul didn't make an unfounded accusation; YOU DID!

God Bless,
SBC

Oh boy...I don't have time right now, but I will address this.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Dan61861]

Again ~ your little snide ego comment is off base and unnecessary.
I agree you should be discussing scripture with others on a more elementary level.




God Bless,
SBC

You walk into a room, shouting and screaming like a little child. Look at me, while you toss and kick the chairs around. Insulting people with the true spirit that rules you.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[SBC]

from stuart to firstcenturylady
Yet you get upset
your .. incorrect belief

Fascinating!

from stuart to firstcenturylady, but apparently speaking to me, whom you claim to ignore!

SBC has certainly not got his flesh crucified

Really?
And your certainty is because you know my heart?
or
your certainty is because I have claimed I have, but you are not satisfied?
or
something else?

If your flesh was truly crucified, you would have apologised to me yesterday.

Oh, here it is; You didn't receive an apology you think you deserved; so therefore, you are claiming you are certain, my flesh must not be crucified!

Oh please, what kind of nonsense are you trying to peddle?

You had made inferences I believed what I did not, because you were getting disconcerted in discussion between us.

Then you outrightly lied in claiming I denied following after the law of the Spirit of life.

When you could produce no statement of mine to back up your false accusation,

you would have immediatley apologised if you were anywhere near to your flesh being crucified.

But you did not apologise did you.

Why not? Pride.

No. I gave you no apology, because I did not see you "quote" my words, "then" make your claim; just as you have not done here; to know if an apology was in order.

I have told you before to not use your words to claim what I say.
If you have an issue; quote my words, then make your complaint with your words.

Why is that so difficult for you to comprehend?

In fact if your flesh was crucified you could not have born false witness in the first place!

Again ~ per your usual, you make accusations, without any evidence whatsoever of my words being quoted that would support your accusation. Why? Because its a false accusation?

It is as I have repeatedly stated. People can make empty statements that have no bearing on the reality of their own lives. I have seen it over decades, at churches, and amongst members of my own family.

Such statements to me are seen through.

Perhaps you should stop sizing everyone else up, blurting out your accusations, and take a look at yourself.

I have too much experience of all of this not to see clearly concerning it.

It appears you do have experience in sizing up others, then providing no evidence of your accusations. Perhaps you should pause and look at yourself.

In my view, you and others should pause and consider Jesus words:

The measure you use to judge others, will be used to judge you
Matt7:2

Really? So, you would like to be judged the same as you have judged me as;
a waste? a liar? unsaved?
Fascinating! I'll keep that in mind.

 

[SBC]

Oh boy...I don't have time right now, but I will address this.

In Christ
Daniel

Great! Please provide the very quotes of my words you were challenging as mistaken.
Thanks.

God Bless
SBC

 

[SBC]

You walk into a room, shouting and screaming like a little child. Look at me, while you toss and kick the chairs around. Insulting people with the true spirit that rules you.

In Christ
Daniel

Oh my;
Must be my lucky day to have Daniel "In Christ" single me out with his wagging tongue and crooked finger pointing!

When you can actually POINT OUT MY WORDS that ARE NOT Scripturally TRUE....you can carry on with accusations! Until such time I will presume you will carry on with the pre-school kids and toddler bibles and elementary carnal understanding and patting each other with hugs so y'all feel good and primed for the Joel Osteen sanctuary.

God Bless your little heart
SBC

 

[Dan61861]

Oh my;
Must be my lucky day to have Daniel "In Christ" single me out with his wagging tongue and crooked finger pointing!

When you can actually POINT OUT MY WORDS that ARE NOT Scripturally TRUE....you can carry on with accusations! Until such time I will presume you will carry on with the pre-school kids and toddler bibles and elementary carnal understanding and patting each other with hugs so y'all feel good and primed for the Joel Osteen sanctuary.

God Bless your little heart
SBC

Your true spirit is beginning to show it true nature my friend.

 

[Dan61861]

SBC,

We can actually have a conversation without either of us insulting the other. I can take your point of view, some I may agree with others I may not. Just as you can listen to my points, if you disagree I can deal with. We don't need to insult one another.

I have been having a conversation with 1stcenturylady for some time now. I actually admire her. We have disagreed often, yet she never insults me nor I her. She has made points that have enlightened me and I pray I have done the same for her.

Stuart and her have developed a relationship, a friendship throughout the years. As I. Many friendships they can become frustrating to both parties. Yet, both of them put it behind and move forward. Both stand their ground and take a break whenever there is need.

You jumped right into the middle of that friendship without understanding their relationship.

Instead of trying to have a dialog, you came in insulting. I myself enjoy a true conversation. I do not believe I or anyone else truly understands God and His true power and Holiness. Each of us see through a shadowed glass.

In Christ
Daniel