Quoting Calvin

[Truthfrees]

If there's no regeneration before the cross, then nobody in the OT was saved.

And yes, Paul's letters were to the church.

You've described Pelagianism. It's considered heretical in orthodoxy.

you can't have it both ways

if people can be regenerated before the cross then there was no need for the cross

the scriptures i quoted throughout my last few posts prove that there is a war between the flesh and the spirit and the only solution is to be indwelt or moved upon by the Holy Spirit - a regenerate needs to make sure he is living by the Spirit - and an unregenerate needs to yield to the Spirit - as per paul's words in Romans 7-Romans 9

before the cross no one could be indwelt - they could only be temporarily filled or moved upon by the Holy Spirit to do something good God wanted done - like balaam, the prophets, the writers of the ot, king david, etc

after the cross one can be permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit - to be motivated to do something good God wants done - if one lives by the Spirit and not by their flesh - which is why paul tells regenerates to live like a regenerate and not live by the flesh

so an unregenerate can be moved upon by the Holy Spirit to believe in Jesus and become regenerated

this is a Sovereign God graciously giving people a chance to believe and become regenerated

 

[faroukfarouk]

The poet William Cowper, a devout Christian and the author of many hymns, also faced such a dilemna. After hearing about Calvinism, he later had a nightmare that he was not among the elect.

He heard the words 'It is all over with thee, thou has perished'. Despite that he still believed in God, he thought this meant that he was eternally damned. Sorrowfully, he never entered a church or prayed again, for he believed himself lost. He still continued to write in defense of scripture and the gospel though, and compelled others to follow God. Yet, he considered himself a destined wretch, a castaway, outside of the elect, that God would not save him. He gave up his hope of the Resurrection based on belief in Christ in exchange for the bleak terms of Calvanism which he clung to, in which it did not matter if he believed and he could not gain salvation by grace through faith.

Now, any belief can be misunderstood, misconstrued, etc. That any belief can be a stumbling block doesn't make a belief wrong of itself - the gospel itself is a stumbling block, after all.

However, we should take care when adding 'extra' stumbling blocks on top of the gospel.

For example, I have a friend who believed in God, but hadn't yet subjected herself to Christ. Since she had encountered quite a number of Calvinists while studying the Bible, she delayed placing her faith in Christ to show grace was resistible. After about six months she realized that if she died, explaining to God she was disproving Calvanism wouldn't get her out of hell, and that all around worrying what other people thought was a silly thing in comparison to her own future.

Again, any belief can be misused or misconstrued - but there was definitely an unnecessary stumbling block placed in front of her by well-meaning Christians more focused on converting her to their own views than focusing on the gospel.

Hi; Cowper wrote some good hymns, didn't he?

 

[anna ~ grace]

So instead of playing "this theology is worse than that theology", how about sticking with trying to present evidence as to why one is true/false?

Within Calvinism, how does one know that one is elect? Does having faith in Christ automatically mean that a person is among the elect? Is it a possibility to have faith in Christ and not be one of the elect? How can a person with faith in Christ and who even subscribes to Calvinism theologically know whether he is or is not elect?

 

[Hammster]

I already posted many passages of people doing things that God found pleasing (the midwives fearing Him, Cornelius's prayers ascending to Him like a memorial offering, etc.)
I posted more examples in the other thread "On Free Will." Any action that is in accordance with God's will or desire is 'pleasing' to Him by the general English definition of the term. (And I assume we are all speaking English in this forum.)

But if you were meaning only to assert that fleshly man could not satisfy God unto salvation without faith, then I and most every other non-Calvinist would agree. Or, if you merely meant to propose that a man's whole self cannot be pleasing to God without faith, then I and almost every other non-Calvinist would agree with that as well.

However, the thrust of your argument seemed to be far broader than that, claiming that unregenerate man could do nothing whatsoever that was pleasing.

There is a large difference when speaking of a specific action (obedience, feeding the hungry, etc.) or state of heart (humility) that someone might have/do that God finds pleasing, and having one's whole life/existence found 'well-pleasing' to God. We, as a whole person, cannot be well-pleasing to God outside the imputed righteousness of Christ, which is only imputed to us due to faith.

Well, you gave examples and asked if God was pleased with those acts. I'm not sure if that counts as examples.

However, since the thread is concerning salvation primarily, that is my main thrust of the discussion, not if people can do nice things that God liked because He does nice things too.

 

[Hammster]

Within Calvinism, how does one know that one is elect? Does having faith in Christ automatically mean that a person is among the elect? Is it a possibility to have faith in Christ and not be one of the elect? How can a person with faith in Christ and who even subscribes to Calvinism theologically know whether he is or is not elect?

In Calvinism, we don't worry about it. We teach justification by faith just like...wait for it...the Bible.

Those are the elect.

 

[Truthfrees]

Sorry, but not a straw man. Pelagianism is the belief that Adam's sin didn't taint man and that man can still choose spiritual good without interference of the Holy Spirit. That's what he stated, in essence.

that's not what i stated

the rest of my post clarifies that it takes the Holy Spirit acting in/on a person to DO anything that pleases God

if you would have asked for further clarification to find out what i meant i would have gladly answered

 

[Hammster]

that's not what i stated

the rest of my post clarifies that it takes the Holy Spirit acting in/on a person to DO anything that pleases God

if you would have asked for further clarification to find out what i meant i would have gladly answered

It is what you stated. The only reference to the Holy Spirit was Him making donkeys talk, and such.

 

[Truthfrees]

In Calvinism, we don't worry about it. We teach justification by faith just like...wait for it...the Bible.

Those are the elect.

your interpretation of the bible

that is what the differences are between the different calvinists - and between calvinists and non-c's

 

[anna ~ grace]

In Calvinism, we don't worry about it. We teach justification by faith just like...wait for it...the Bible.

Those are the elect.

So Calvinism teaches that all who have faith in Christ are "the elect"?

Is it a possibility that one may have faith in Christ and yet not be among the elect?

 

[Monk Brendan]

And God ordained all of this. Right?

NO! God, being omniscient, KNEW that humanity would turn to sin, so, before the beginning of the world, He drew up a plan where He, Himself, (in the person of the 2nd Person of the Trinity) would have to come to earth and pay the price for sin. It has nothing to do with the Sanhedrin or Judas (you seem to have forgotten him) or Pilate or the Roman soldiers. It has to do with ALL of the sin, from the moment Adam sinned until such time as Jesus returns. Jesus paid for ALL of the sin. However, God did not ORDAIN Pilate, or the Sanhedrin or Judas to commit those sins. Rather, He KNEW that this would happen, and knowing all, prepared a way for those that had (have, and will have) sin in their lives (everybody) to have a way out of the punishment, by taking the punishment on Himself.

No matter how hard you try, you are not going to get me to admit that God created, desired, wanted, or even needed sin in the world. He did NOT ordain sin.

 

[Hammster]

your interpretation of the bible

that is what the differences are between the different calvinists - and between calvinists and non-c's

My interpretation of the Bible? What's that referring to?

 

[Hammster]

So Calvinism teaches that all who have faith in Christ are "the elect"?

Is it a possibility that one may have faith in Christ and yet not be among the elect?

No.

 

[Truthfrees]

It is what you stated. The only reference to the Holy Spirit was Him making donkeys talk, and such.

as i said you could have asked for clarification

you didn't

you inferred

i clarified later

i'll clarify again that the Holy Spirit can move upon an unregenerate to cause him to accept Jesus

nothing gets done at any time apart from Jesus or the Holy Spirit

there is none good - no not one

God alone is good

anything good must of necessity come from God - be connected to God - not originate from the flesh

please ask in future rather than accuse

 

[anna ~ grace]

No.

So anybody who has faith in Christ is automatically among the elect?

Would a devout Catholic with faith in Christ be among the elect?

 

[Tree of Life]

He did NOT ordain sin.

Did so.

 

[Truthfrees]

My interpretation of the Bible? What's that referring to?

you interpreted the scriptures i quoted differently than i did

we both used scripture

all disagreements between parties using the same scriptures must therefore be differences of interpretation

calvinists interpret scripture different than reformed and different than arminians etc

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Well, you gave examples and asked if God was pleased with those acts. I'm not sure if that counts as examples.

However, since the thread is concerning salvation primarily, that is my main thrust of the discussion, not if people can do nice things that God liked because He does nice things too.

Calvinists and non-Calvinist Christians alike agree that no one can be saved without faith, and that no one can be granted God's favor unto salvation without the imputed righteousness of Christ - again, only through faith. No one can be so pleasing on their own merit so as to achieve salvation.

But I am at a loss how you can claim that the midwives did not please God by fearing Him - even though He rewarded them for it. Or why you do not see Ninevah's repentance or Ahab's humility as pleasing to God, even though He deferred judgment because they did so. Or how Cornelious' prayers and generosity were not pleasing, even though they ascended to God 'like a memorial offering.' Etc. How were any of those things, and others among the many examples given, not according to the desire or will of God?

 

[Hammster]

as i said you could have asked for clarification

you didn't

you inferred

i clarified later

i'll clarify again that the Holy Spirit can move upon an unregenerate to cause him to accept Jesus

nothing gets done at any time apart from Jesus or the Holy Spirit

there is none good - no not one

God alone is good

anything good must of necessity come from God - be connected to God - not originate from the flesh

please ask in future rather than accuse

So then belief (a good thing) is impossible apart from the Spirit working, correct?

 

[Hammster]

So anybody who has faith in Christ is automatically among the elect?

Would a devout Catholic with faith in Christ be among the elect?

Are you going to keep asking the same question, but in different ways?

 

[Hammster]

you interpreted the scriptures i quoted differently than i did

we both used scripture

all disagreements between parties using the same scriptures must therefore be differences of interpretation

calvinists interpret scripture different than reformed and different than arminians etc

I'm not sure what that had to do with the post you quoted, though.