I wouldn't conclude that a 20th century English translation by a few Jews makes a translation accepted by the early church "irrelevant".
What is this, Strongs that you said had 15,000 errors in it? Strong's is not far off the mark when it says "duration", before erring with "in the sense of perpetuity", for which it provides no evidence. The end part of your quote is mostly just KJV mistranslations by those biased towards endless punishment. At least the rendering "old" shows that the word is used of finite "duration", which your source was forced to admit. The idea of "duration" is in harmony with the translations of AD[Strongs # 5703] at Daniel 12:3 that i posted & its synonyns, such as "further", "beyond", "still", etc.
.....The verse which supposedly says "Olam and further' is faulty the word translated "further" is "ad" it means only eternal, it never means further.
I don't know that I would be so quick to write off the accuracy of the English translation of the Tanakh by the Jewish Publishing Society because it does not fit with my pre-conceived ideas. The JPS is a respected participant in Jewish Bible translation and scholarly commentaries on the Jewish Bible.
More irrelevant objections. Unless you have a degree in Hebrew your opinion is meaningless.
†I.עַדS5703, 5704, 5705, 5706 TWOT1565a, 1565b, 1565c, 2899 GK6329, 6330, 6331 and וָעֶ֑ד (so always) n.m. perpetuity ( = advancing time, cf. Assyrian adû, time, at the present time);— 1. of past time: מִנִּי עַד Jb 20:4; הררי עד Hb 3:6 ancient mountains (cf. עולם 1) so Gn 49:26 (read הַרְרֵי עַד for הוֹרַ֔י עַד). 2. of future time, לָעַד (usually לָעַ֑ד) for ever: a. during lifetime, of king ψ 21:7 Pr 29:14; of others ψ 9:19; 22:27; 61:9 Pr 12:19. b. of things, לָעַד בַּצּוּר יֵחָֽצֵב֑וּן Jb 19:24. c. of continuous existence, of nations, גְּבֶרֶת עַד (of Babylon, cf. עולם 2 c) Is 47:7 (yet v. III. עַד II 3); anger, לעד Am 1:11; elsewhere עֲדֵי עַד ψ 83:18; 92:8 Is 26:4; 65:18. d. of divine existence, שֹׁכֵן עַד Is 57:15; attributes, לָעַד ψ 111:3, 10; 112:3, 9; residence in Zion, עֲדֵי עַד 132:14; law of God, לָעַד 19:10; promise as to dynasty of David, לָעַד 89:30; עֲדֵי עַד 132:12; inheritance of land, לָעַד 37:29; continuous relations between God and his people 1 Ch 28:9; Is 64:8; Mi 7:18 לעד. e. phrases (see עולם 2 m): (לְ)עוֹלָם וָעֶ֑ד ψ 9:6; 10:16; 21:5; 45:7, 18; 48:15; 52:10; 104:5; 119:44; 145:1, 2, 21; Ex 15:18; Mi 4:5; Dn 12:3; לָעַד לְעוֹלָם ψ 111:8; 148:6; עַד־עוֹלְמֵי עַד Is 45:17.—Is 30:8 read (עַד־עוֹלָם) לְעֵד for a witness ( Ges Ew Di Che Du) for MT לָעַד.
Brown, F., Driver, S. R., & Briggs, C. A. (1977). Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon (p. 723). Oxford: Clarendon Press.
The JPS have misled the public in its translation of olam. It's the same thing most Bible versions by pro hellfire dogmatists have also done in the NT with aion and aionios.
Noise respectfully snipped.
Which following source? You did not identify any source. I see that you made reference to TWOT which OBTW I happen to own. Here is the full definition of עד/"ad from Theological Wordbook of the OT. Please note there is no "further", "beyond", "still" etc. But I have included a few lines from the very next entry in TWOT a word similar to "ad" which does have those definitions. Evidently whatever source you quoted from either ignorantly or deliberately chose the wrong definition. I strongly believe it was deliberate to support their agenda..The following source disagrees with you. The translations of AD as "further", "beyond", "futurity", "still" & other synonyms also fits in well with this statement re AD:
"Derivative TWOT Number: 1631a
Derivative Transliteration: 'olam
'ad (q.v.) has substantially the same range of meaning as 'olam (usually long continuance into the future, but cf. Job 20:4).
Bibliography: Snaith, Norman H., "Time in the Old Testament, " in Promise and Fulfillment, Essays Presented to Professor S. H. Hooke, ed. F. F. Bruce, Edinburgh: Clark, 1963, pp. 175-86. Jenni, E., "Das wort 'olam im AT, " Diss, Theol. Basel 1953 ( ZAW 64:197-248; 65:1-35). A.A.M."
BDB Definition:
1) perpetuity, for ever, continuing future
Definition of continual
"1: continuing indefinitely in time without interruption . continual fear"
Definition of CONTINUAL
Indefinite continuance of duration is in harmony with the translations i posted of "further", "beyond", etc. But disagrees with your notion that the word means only eternal and never "further".
If the translators thought the word AD[5703] always meant "eternal" they wouldn't have translated it as "perpetually" & "continually" as they did here:
"...and his anger did tear perpetually, and he kept his wrath for ever." (Amos 1:11, JPS)
"...In their rage, they slashed them continually and were unrelenting in their anger." (Amos 1:11, NIV)
"...His anger also tore continually..." (Amos 1:11, NASB)
The second definition of perpetual:
"2: occurring continually : indefinitely long-continued . perpetual problems"
Definition of PERPETUAL
Definition of continual
"1: continuing indefinitely in time without interruption . continual fear"
Definition of CONTINUAL
The translations "perpetual" & "continually" are similar to those i posted re AD[5703] in Daniel 12:3.
I do not require instruction in English. "continual" is not the same as "continuing future!" "Similar" does not mean the same thing as "same!" But I am quite sure that you can find something, written by someone, somewhere which you think is superior to all of the sources I have posted solely because they support your assumptions/presuppositions..Why should i respond to those cut & paste quotes from another person, not you? Is there some point to it all?
Which following source? You did not identify any source. I see that you made reference to TWOT which OBTW I happen to own. Here is the full definition of עד/"ad from Theological Wordbook of the OT. Please note there is no "further", "beyond", "still" etc. But I have included a few lines from the very next entry in TWOT a word similar to "ad" which does have those definitions. Evidently whatever source you quoted from either ignorantly or deliberately chose the wrong definition. I strongly believe it was deliberate to support their agenda..
The source & word (TWOT & olam) with bibliography was written right before your eyes.
As for your comment re "ignorantly or deliberately chose the wrong definition" & your strong belief it was "to support their agenda", it was you yourself who posted those words here:
the fallacy of eternal torment and related issues
So i'll let your 2017 self work out with your 2005 self this stuff about "deliberately choosing the wrong definition" & "agenda" stuff.
so who are you talking to now, me or someone else?
My post was addressed to Der Alter. So, no, not talking to you. But thanks for the info re OLAM.
I do not require instruction in English. "continual" is not the same as "continuing future!"
Your source was not properly identified. I'll leave you to figure out what that is. And as I have shown it did not "quote" TWOT. Quoting 3-4 words is not a proper citation. Please note that I posted the complete definition from TWOT and correctly identified it as the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.The source & word (TWOT & olam) with bibliography was written right before your eyes.
Another phony quote from tents-я-us. There is no article on "ad" on pg. 1757, because there is no pg. 1757 in the "Lexical aids to the Old Testament" section. The article on "ad" is on pg. 1642 and here is the complete article.As for your comment re "ignorantly or deliberately chose the wrong definition" & your strong belief it was "to support their agenda", it was you yourself who posted those words here:
the fallacy of eternal torment and related issues
So i'll let your 2017 self work out with your 2005 self this stuff about "deliberately choosing the wrong definition" & "agenda" stuff./QUOTE]
I don't have a clue what you are talking about. Quote whatever it is you think is contradictory and show how it is supposedly contradictory here rather than making vague insinuations. I seriously doubt that I have contradicted myself anywhere at any time then or now..
"'ad (q.v.) has substantially the same range of meaning as 'olam (usually long continuance into the future, but cf.This quote does not occur in the TWOT definition of "ad." Feel free to check it out in the complete TWOT definition I posted above.Job 20:4)." (TWOT)
"Compare...'Ad (5703) which has about the same spectrum of meaning as owlam. The Septuagint generally translates owlam by aion(G165)cf. New Testament Lexical section,
referring to a long age or period of time...".
(Spiros Zodhaites, Hebrew/Greek Key Study Bible pg. 1757)
It is not BDB which is wrong it is your link. The Hebrew verse numbers are different. Our Ps 21:6 is 21:7 in the Hebrew Bible.The BDB lexicon lists Psa.21:7 as having the word AD[5703], but i see no AD[5703] listed for that verse here: Psalm 21:7 Interlinear: For the king is trusting in Jehovah, And in the kindness of the Most High He is not moved.
Strongs lexicon allegedly has 15,000 errors. I wonder if the BDB lexicon has less or more errors than that.
The BDB lexicon under AD[5703 Strongs] says "a. during lifetime, of king Psalm 21:7; Proverbs 29:14; of others Psalm 9:19; Psalm 22:27; Psalm 61:9; Proverbs 12:19." Strong's #5703 - עַד - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?No worries brother you have you hands full with that one
Those who died before the millennium fall into two categories;Good point but I don't see where those are the only ones present. Unless of course you believe that those who died before the millenium are annihilated or thrown into eternal torture. The it makes sense.Dartman said:All of the mortal survivors of Christ's coming, which are going to die DURING the Millennium, and all of their descendants, who are ALSO going to die DURING the Millennium, will be resurrected WITH those who were not worthy of the 1st resurrection.
SOME of them will be righteous, and will have their names written in the book of life.
There is no article on "ad" on pg. 1757, because there is no pg. 1757 in the "Lexical aids to the Old Testament" section. The article on "ad" is on pg. 1642 and here is the complete article.
5703. ‘ad this masc. noun arises from 571o meaning duration. advance, perpetutty. eternity The ASV word without end, while the RSV has “to all eternity” Hebr. has no special terms for the past, the present, the future, or eternity There simpIy was no word tor time in that language. See olam (5769) for further information. Ad and Olam appear together nineteen times. Only twice is ‘ad used with to the past (Job 20:4: Hab 3:6) Otherwise. it always denotes the unforeseeable future Frequently the word 'ad is applied to God His existence is eternal (Is 57:15) While His righteousness endures forever. (Ps. 111.3, 112.3. 9), His anger does not (Mic. 7:18). The throne of God will endure forever (Ps 1o:16). The dynasty of David will continue forever (Ps. 89:29, 132: 12), Zion is God's dwelling place forever. (Ps. 48:14, 132:149). Ad may function as a prep. and a conj. It can also be used in a comparative or superlative sense.
Your source was not properly identified. I'll leave you to figure out what that is. And as I have shown it did not "quote" TWOT. Quoting 3-4 words is not a proper citation. Please note that I posted the complete definition from TWOT and correctly identified it as the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.
Tell you what amigo start by providing all that same information for every secondary quote you have posted in response to me. Start with your supposed quote from Zodhiates above. I have the book, you evidently do not which is why your supposed quote from Zodhiates had not only the wrong page number but also the wrong definition. I'll be waiting for you to get all that information. Once again do not demand/request from me what you cannot or are incapable of providing yourself.What is the title of the book this comes from? What is the date of publication? What edition? Who are the author(s) & or editor(s)? Is the source a hardcover/softcover book, DVD, online download or what?