My YEC Evidence Challenge

[Kylie]

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

So that's a no.

 

[Kylie]

Post one that deals in wha nature existed in the far past on earth? Do you know you can't?

Why do you change the subject?

You said that scientists never post their results, I showed you that they do. Stop trying to shift the goalposts. You lost!

The folks who claim it is posted should at least be able to support their claims with links and specific quotes.

And you,. of course, will not just dismiss it, will you? Of course not.

You demonstrated countless times that you don't care what I post, you just repeat your same old claims again and again, and the strongest argument you have against me is, "Fraid not!" I'm not going to waste my time finding a peer reviewed article that specifically address a position that no one but you holds, when all you'll do is ignore it anyway. I've got better things to do with my time.

The ones that deny creation and Jesus are bad.

So you fully support Islam, do you? They revere him. Many Hindus and Buddhists do as well.

 

[Kylie]

Because He made sure it got passed down.

Muslims say the same thing about their holy text. If you can dismiss the argument when Muslims use it, then I can dismiss the same argument when you use it.

Try again!

 

[Kylie]

Are you saying creationists would push the wrong buttons or pull the wrong levers?

No, they'd start with incorrect data.

[I've seen creationists and evolutionists work side-by-side on jobs, whose beliefs don't interfere (or enhance) their work.

And how many of those jobs require scientific information about the age of the Earth?

 

[AV1611VET]

No, they'd start with incorrect data.

Really?

Has anyone ever done that?

What does "incorrect data" ... as opposed to correct data ... look like?

I find the argument that YECs can find oil too vague.

 

[Obliquinaut]

Are you serious with this?

So vibrator or thumper trucks won't run if a creationist is behind the wheel?

Ahhh, I see that Exploration Geology is yet another area you aren't that familiar with. OK. People don't just lay seismic lines all over the earth in hopes of finding oil. They actually utilize a wide variety of things to assess where an oil play will likely be.

Part of that comes from understanding the rocks in the area. If one truly believes that the earth was created in 6 literal days then there's zero reason to believe that basins would have time to develop oil (again, relying on the normal 6-day literal Genesis without extra-biblical hypotheses on "added age"). And they would have no method to explain why oil could come from a tight shale source rock and migrate to a reservoir. There's literally nothing about the process that makes sense from a YEC point of view.

IF a YEC finds oil it will be a far less coordinated and efficient method. They will wander around like a drunk man in a casino looking for money in the slot machine coil returns and payphones.

IF, however, they utilize well logs and find reasonable source rocks with significant signal of oil why would they go anywhere nearby to look for a reservoir? There's no time to get the oil out of the shale. And if you drill the shale it'll be a very expensive hole to develop because you'll have to do secondary treatment (fracking etc.) just to open the formation.

The drunk guy wandering around the casino looking for change MAY VERY WELL HIT THE JACKPOT and get some money. But it will not be because he was looking in a coordinated efficient manner to make money.

Oil companies are extremely cost-conscious organizations that utilize very high tech equipment which costs LOTS AND LOTS OF MONEY. So most of them aren't in the business of the olde-timey wildcat guy who thinks he can "smell oil".

It doesn't work that way.

 

[Obliquinaut]

Marco Polo found oil ... without thumper trucks.

Marco Polo wouldn't be working at a petroleum company today. Marco Polo would never find an oil play that would yield billions of barrels over the course of a field lifetime. Sorry to break it to you.

 

[Obliquinaut]

Which is why you don't work for an oil company.

Petroleum companies are not easy interviewers.

 

[Obliquinaut]

Really?

Has anyone ever done that?

What does "incorrect data" ... as opposed to correct data ... look like?

It looks like a WELL LOG. Let's just focus on a neutron log for a sec. A neutron porosity well logger utilizes a radioactive source. That's going to be a problem for a YEC because the YEC has to start off by denying the ability to understand the rate of radioactive decay (that's how they gin up all this "evidence" against an old earth, by failing to accept that we know how radioactive decay works --first order rate kinetic--). There's one problem and that isn't even related to the age of the formations yet!

Second it looks like CORRELATION PLOTS and FENCE DIAGRAMS. If you think the earth was made in 6 literal days there's NO REASON to explain why this particular formation is likely to pinch out in a couple kilometers because literally nothing in geology makes sense, sedimentology and stratigraphy are blown completely apart.

You see, YEC (normal ones, not the ones who hypothesize a God that only makes it look old) have to give up the only tool that makes any of sed-strat make sense: TIME.

I find the argument that YECs can find oil too vague.

They probably can...by dumb luck. And again, oil companies are big businesses and they don't like "Dumb luck". That isn't how it works.

This cartoon of a 1890's wildcatter sniffing for oil in a desert isn't how it works these days. It hasn't been like that for almost a 100 years now. And as oil gets harder to find it becomes even less so.

Trust me, oil companies are NOT easy companies to get a job at. If your area of expertise is in any way not going to be a quick return for them, they aren't going to bring you on to look for oil with them.

 

[AV1611VET]

IF a YEC finds oil it will be a far less coordinated and efficient method.

This is why I enjoy talking to people like you.

You don't just arbitrarily say, "YECs can't find oil;" then leave it up to them to explain over and over why they disagree with that statement.

You'll admit they can find oil, but just not as quickly.

Your presence here is quite refreshing.

They will wander around like a drunk man in a casino looking for money in the slot machine coil returns and payphones.

I like this analogy, although I'm not sure why he has to be drunk.

In any case, this might be how it goes down at first.

But over time, I'm sure an effective equation can be worked out.

If oil is always found migrated N miles from spot X, then what does it matter how much time has passed?

Just go to spot X, then turn and go N miles and start your search there.

HOWEVER, I don't believe oil migrated there in the first place.

I believe God put oil in the ground when He called the land out of the sea.

I call those things "easter eggs:" things implanted underground for later discovery.

 

[AV1611VET]

Marco Polo wouldn't be working at a petroleum company today. Marco Polo would never find an oil play that would yield billions of barrels over the course of a field lifetime. Sorry to break it to you.

Marco Polo wouldn't need billions of barrels over the course of a field lifetime.

The use of bamboo in his time was good enough.

Later, as more oil would be needed, God gave us ... (what are they called) ... paleoarchaeologists?

 

[AV1611VET]

It looks like a WELL LOG. Let's just focus on a neutron log for a sec. A neutron porosity well logger utilizes a radioactive source. That's going to be a problem for a YEC because the YEC has to start off by denying the ability to understand the rate of radioactive decay (that's how they gin up all this "evidence" against an old earth, by failing to accept that we know how radioactive decay works --first order rate kinetic--). There's one problem and that isn't even related to the age of the formations yet!

Sorry -- not buying it.

What if the team thinks the Earth is only 1 billion years old?

Will their neutron log work?

 

[Obliquinaut]

You'll admit they can find oil, but just not as quickly.

You could become a Nobel Prize winner tomorrow. It would likely be 100% pure random chance and luck and would be so unlikely as to be de facto "impossible". (Not saying you aren't smart enough, but c'mon, we both know this to be true. Just as I couldn't win one tomorrow either).

One thing you'll understand about me after a bit: I almost never make universal claims one way or the other. I believe I've been more than honest on here granting people whatever point they might have within limits. I've been quite honest all along that YEC could find oil in the same way my dog, Mr. F., would find oil. The same way Marco Polo found oil. ie: random chance.

I like this analogy, although I'm not sure why he has to be drunk.

It further drives home that there is no actual "thought" or "planning" involved.

In any case, this might be how it goes down at first.

But over time, I'm sure an effective equation can be worked out.

I believe I've explained why such an "equation" would be completely irrational for the YEC. Why on earth would they look for a nearby reservoir rock? They don't have sufficient time to explain how the oil got out of a tight shale formation let alone how it formed in the first place.

Just looking at oil, what it is, where it's found ONLY makes sense with long time.

If oil is always found migrated N miles from spot X, then what does it matter how much time has passed?

If I didn't believe cars existed and I heard that Bob was at his home on one side of town several miles awa and then across town in 3 minutes I would have to assume he is somehow magical. As such I would have no yardstick by which to understand how he could get to my home several miles away. As far as I could tell he could do it instantly.

If I believed in cars I could calculate it based on speed limits and how fast his car can go.

HOWEVER, I don't believe oil migrated there in the first place.

If we allow that your ignorance of petroleum geology and geochemistry is to hold sway then I guess we can wave our hands all over the place and Bob can simply materialize at my home!

I believe God put oil in the ground when He called the land out of the sea.

I call those things "easter eggs:" things implanted underground for later discovery.

Yeah. At which point there's no reason to do science at all. There's literally no reason to know how anything works. It may as well all be magic. Might as well just go out with a shovel into the desert and see if we find oil. Oh wait, we can't do that. Our entire economy is underpinned by doing the exact opposite.

Huh. If only we were just Easter Egg hunting. (And if only all that technical stuff was as simple as the non-scientists tell us it is!)

 

[Obliquinaut]

Sorry -- not buying it.

What if the team thinks the Earth is only 1 billion years old?

Will their neutron log work?

Why would it? Radioactive decay indicates it is much older. How do you monkey the first order rate kinetic to wind up with only 1GA age?

 

[Obliquinaut]

Marco Polo wouldn't need billions of barrels over the course of a field lifetime.

But you do. ANd I do. And the last 100 years of first world development does.

If I find a random chunk of uraninite does not mean I'm Enrico Fermi inventing the first nuclear reactor. Sorry.

Later, as more oil would be needed, God gave us ... (what are they called) ... paleoarchaeologists?

I don't know if that word exists. God gave you geologists who gave up the idea of a Young Earth a couple hundred years ago after which the field God gave you the experts in blossomed to become the backbone of pretty much everything you enjoy in your home.

(But don't bother to thank them. Tell them to go to Hell as you did to other scientists earlier.)

 

[AV1611VET]

Yeah. At which point there's no reason to do science at all.

Why not?

If you're called of God to do science, you'd better be out there doing science.

Why don't surgeons, instead of learning anything, just say, "Meh, God will guide my hands"?

It doesn't work that way.

Faith -- without works -- is dead.

I believe God wanted Charles Darwin to find a cure for cancer.

But just like Nimrod, who used his God-given talents in another direction, Darwin abandoned his practice and left his family to go on an extended vacation -- and brought home a disease with him.

Because of that, we suffer and die of cancer today: unless God calls others to find a cure, but they get aborted.

Gautama did the same thing.

He left his wife and son behind to go "find something."

And he came back as a man considered "enlightened."

Back in the "good old days" here in America, if either of those two would have pulled a stunt like that, they would have gotten arrested for abandonment.

No wonder people want the Ten Commandments off of our courthouse lawns.

No wonder people want the Bible out of our schools.

They don't condone the actions of scientists today, who are dragging us down morally.

 

[HitchSlap]

Petroleum companies are not easy interviewers.

Nope. I have a college buddy with a PhD in a relevant geophysical field, and the oil companies wouldn't look at him until he had the degree.

BTW, he finds oil for oil companies; not a creationist.

 

[AV1611VET]

(But don't bother to thank them. Tell them to go to Hell as you did to other scientists earlier.)

Excuse me?

I said:

Science can go to Hell.

See the difference?

And speaking of that, who are the ones who deny the Lady Hope story?

That means Darwin is burning in Hell.

I'm the only one here who has argued extensively that Charles Darwin is in Heaven -- no thanks to his "friends" here.

With friends like that, who needs enemies?

 

[Obliquinaut]

Nope. I have a college buddy with a PhD in a relevant geophysical field, and the oil companies wouldn't look at him until he had the degree.

BTW, he finds oil for oil companies; not a creationist.

When I was in grad school I was getting super-deep in organic geochem. When the oil companies came to campus for recruiting the folks who hit the geology department told me "You're a chemist, go talk to our recruiters in the chemistry department." When I went over to the chemistry department they said "You are a student in the geology department, why are you here?" Go figure.

Later when I was doing my first post-doc I had an interview with an oil company and they mysteriously determined I didn't have sufficient organic geochem (despite two graduate degrees in the area as well as a full-on chemistry postdoc).

At that point I realized geology had left me far behind and I was stuck over in chemistry (and not the fun organic geochemistry stuff...just formulation stuff. Don't get me wrong, it's been a lot of fun, just not the "dream". But I also understand life as a petroleum geologist isn't always a bed of roses either. Many of our friends have been through the feast-and-famine cycle a lot.)

 

[AV1611VET]

When I was in grad school I was getting super-deep in organic geochem. When the oil companies came to campus for recruiting the folks who hit the geology department told me "You're a chemist, go talk to our recruiters in the chemistry department." When I went over to the chemistry department they said "You are a student in the geology department, why are you here?" Go figure.

In all that ping-ponging, were you ping-ponged over to a course on oil rig safety and how to get safety checks waived?