Speak in Tongues - essential :

[Anto9us]

“We have never even heard of the Holy Spirit”, which sounds very little different from what I hear from many cessationists of our day, though admittedly, they at least know that he is supposed to be a member of the Godhead.

Guffaw!!

 

[Anto9us]

Of Reformed/Calvinist writers, I like Packer and Sproul -- McArthur and Piper are a tad "too TULIP" for my blood...

I started studying Greek at a small Methodist University -- 900 students -- then transferred to Baylor, biggest Baptist college there is

When I talked to the Greek professor about whether I would be able to just come on in in the Fall to 3rd semester Greek, he asked "Whose textbook did you use there? Metzger? Machen?"
I said Machen, and he suggested I AUDIT his 1st two semesters in the summer, which was cheaper than real tuition and a really small class -- in the Fall - I was the lone Methodist among NINETY BAPTISTS!

I was called on to translate BAPTIZO every single time as we went through Mark, and Luke/Acts, as long as you got the tense correct, Professor didn't care if I translated it "having been sprinkelled" or whatever.

The other guys looked at me like I had HORNS ON !!

One time in class I felt water being sprinkled on my back, looked around to see the head Baptist ringleader and his cohorts dying laughing - from then on I had coffee at Student Union before class with the Baptists - I was accepted because I had been immersed at 19, though sprinkelled as a baby

 

[Alithis]

Scripture does tend to have that effect on people at times.

It's not scripture its long commentaries that win no argument when the other party has chosen to disbelieve.

So the cessationism says blah blah long winded theory about his theory..meanwhile as he types this long winded theory about why his theory is right in his eyes..
- my wife met two ladies at a coffe shop .and while sharing about The Gospel with them ..one of them was suffering with a long term headache..and had been going for months to Doctors to.no avail. My wife laid hands on her head and prayed and after months he headache vanished. She was astounded and very happy.

So cessationists can take thier lies and flush them.down the lavatory.
They are WRONG.

 

[Waggles]

To all you theologians out there...

Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child,
he shall not enter therein.
Mark 10:15
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children,
ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18:3
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Romans 8:

Works for me.

 

[Waggles]

Again to all you theologians out there ...

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost
hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing
the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Acts 20:
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men,
after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Colossians 2:8

When I was confronted by the full Apostolic gospel of salvation, I prayed to Jesus, and prayed for
his revealing to me if this gospel is true and from Him.
Jesus answered my prayers and kicked my butt all the way over to a Pentecostal Church where
everybody could pray in tongues.
Now who should I believe? Jesus the author and finisher of my salvation? Or unbelievers who write
books against the truth?

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Galatians 3:

 

[swordsman1]

Without spending too much time on this (I do get a bit bored sometimes, not your fault), as the 9 Manifestations cease when the Perfect arrives then that is that.

That is not what Paul said. As is often the case with pentecostal/charismatic theology you are putting words into Paul's mouth in order to try to make scripture agree with your preconceived ideas. It plainly says only 3 gifts cease when the teleios comes.

If I were to quote, two, five or a dozen or more then such information could hardly be used in a court of Law but when we have one of the Churches pre-eminent theologians telling us that he is more than welcomed within his world,

But you haven't even supplied ONE piece of evidence to back up your wild claim that 95-99% of scholarship says that teleios means perfect in this passage.

Keener's views regarding tongues have been confusing for me as he openly prays in tongues (just as the rest of us do)

Keener's views are not confusing to me, nor should they be to anyone else. The reason that Keener affirms that Corinthian tongues is the same as Acts 2 (human languages) is because that is the only description of the gift we have. He is obviously astute enough to see past the pentecostal/charismatic fallacy that unwarrantedly claims there is a second type of tongues - a non-human language. He of course rejects the idea that tongues is a heavenly language, correctly pointing out that the 'tongues of angels' in 1 Cor 13 was hyperbole on Paul's part.

As to his own practice I can only assume that he, like Fee, regards the modern practice of glossolalia as only something analogous to the NT gift, rather than the gift itself.

I think that you need to maybe quietly sit down and look at the lexical material without desperately trying to find a word or two that you think suits your agenda; it’s one thing to misapply a word in a given paragraph or within a sentence, but you seem to look at words as if they are sitting on their own without any other words being present.

The lexicons speak for themselves. Teleios can mean complete, mature or perfect. And the meaning that Friberg ascribes to 1 Cor 13:10 is completeness, along with many respected bible versions such as the NIV, as well as numerous commentators including your beloved Thiselton.

Again, you are trying to find a word or two in a paragraph so that you can make a commentator say what you want them to say; maybe you should consider Thiselton’s ‘However, here there is also a further hint of τέλειος as denoting a goal’.

You are obviously in denial that your favourite theologian agrees with me and not you on this issue. Thiselton tells us plainly what teleios means here with his own translation of the verse:

10 But when the completed whole comes, what is piece by piece shall be done away. ​

Oh, ho-hum, other schoolboy errors would probably be that the earth is flat and the sun rises in the West. The idea that some have that they can pick and choose which ways the Holy Spirit will supposedly decide not to work in is really a bit of a desperate ploy, particularly when there is not even a hint of this being a possibly within the Scriptures; it really is a case of the have-nots trying to find a way to excuse why they lack certain aspects of the Holy Spirit's Ministry when the haves do.

And as usual when you have been proved wrong, you resort to another ad-hominem tirade. This time mixed with a dose of conceited arrogance in claiming you are the "haves" and we the "have-nots". The amusing thing is of course is what you think you "have" is not the true NT gift as described in scripture, but a counterfeit.

As I’ve said, any argument that is primarily based on word gender is generally deemed to be poor form;

Says who? The desperate continuists who try to assert that teleios is Christ himself?

Are you asking ‘How can there be cessationists travelling through Corinth when it is only the third largest city in the Roman Empire, after that of Rome and Alexandria, where it is also the crossroads between the Western and Eastern portions of the Empire that would see who knows how many thousands of travelers passing through its walls each year – now I wonder!

Need I point out that it was not exactly possible to give new converts of Paul’s day a copy of the New Testament which had not as yet been written, which means that most new converts may have only heard a portion of the Gospel, for that matter, what was the reply the Ephesians give Paul when he asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit, “We have never even heard of the Holy Spirit”, which sounds very little different from what I hear from many cessationists of our day, though admittedly, they at least know that he is supposed to be a member of the Godhead.

Tell me, how exactly could there be cessationists in Corinth when none of the gifts had ceased at that time? Cessationists believe that some of the gifts ceased at the end of the apostolic age, so how could there be cessationists during the apostolic age? Another schoolboy error.

Now you should be aware of how this passage is probably best translated as “Now you are eagerly desiring the higher graces".

I checked over 50 bible translations to see how many of them translated charisma here as 'graces'. Not a single one. Every one translated it as 'gifts'. Looks like you are going to be busy again writing to all those translation committees to tell the Greek scholars they have all got their translation wrong. Or is this perhaps another case of all the bible versions conspiring together in another mass cessationist plot?

As I said, I would encourage every inquisitive cessationist to read through the material by Thomas, just as many have done since he first wrote his book in 1978, where the arguments for his worldview were such an embarrassment to them that many decided to go along the pathway of do not ask, do not tell.

It's interesting that John MacArthur released a book titled "The Charismatics - A Doctrinal Perspective" in the same year, which he at least had the forsight to pull from the shelves as he undoubtedly received a lot of flack for his flaky arguments, this is something that Thomas should have done as well but at least he has demonstrated to many thoughtful cessationists that their worldview is indeed a sham that is built upon humanist presuppositions - which is why we now have the incredibly large portion of the Evangelical world who are neither cessationist or Continuist who are now a part of a third group of those who are 'Open-but-Cautious'.

It always amuses me that when you are unable to refute an argument you always resort to the ad-hominem fallacy and desperately attempt to belittle and falsely discredit cessationists. It therefore comes as no surprise that practically every response of yours to my posts contains the said fallacy.

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.​

 

[1stcenturylady]

I'm impressed that you were able to hang on with listening to those taps - how painful it must have been.

Last Christmas we were visiting some relatives in a regional city and I happened to come across a previously unheard of book by John MacArthur titled The Charismatics: A Doctrinal Perspective (1978) that I found in a second hand bookshop. As the book was completely unknown to me I was gobsmacked when I saw it and though I do not like paying too much for MacArthur's material, by the time we made it back home I figured that even though I had probably paid double what the book was worth that in the end $2 wasn't all that bad for one of his books.

Having read through his book I can understand why he probably pulled it off the shelves as MacArthur is not that good a tactician when it comes to combating the Full Gospel, which is why he has turned his attacks to slander and guilt by association. If I can find a legal way to reproduce his book in PDF format I would love to be able to post it so that cessationists can get a better idea of why their worldview is now little more than a relic; in my opinion when a prudent cessationist or quasi-cessationist is given the chance to read through what they are supposed to believe that it should be enough for them to discard their old worldview for a more Biblical understanding of the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit.

My husband and I listened to them together on a 4 hour trip. Even his mouth flew open a number of times at the outrageous fabrications. Go to a Christian bookstore sometime and pick up John MacArthur's commentary on 1 Corinthians 14 and read it. That ridiculous heresy about the singular and plural tongue(s) came straight from Merrill Unger. Supposedly any time Paul used the singular form of "tongue" that was demonic tongues. And any time Paul used the plural form of "tongues" it was the real tongues from the Holy Spirit. The problem is when he got to a verse using the singular form of tongue (demonic) where we needed to limit them to 2 or 3 and they were to be interpreted, he did not make any comment at all (maybe we wouldn't be able to see his theory didn't make any sense!) ROFL!

27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.

Don't forget, the singular form is supposedly demonic.

 

[Anto9us]

Tell me, how exactly could there be cessationists in Corinth when none of the gifts had ceased at that time?

How can there be Cessationists NOW?
WHEN NONE OF THE GIFTS HAVE CEASED?

There were full preterists in the apostolic age also, like followers of Hymenaus...

Beware the LONG TASSLES AND BROAD PHYLACTERIES of those who try to snow people about gender, singulars and plurals.

And hold that demonic tongue-talkin to 2 or 3, and let it be interpreted, right.

"Leather Bible Cover!" ROFL

 

[Biblicist]

Of Reformed/Calvinist writers, I like Packer and Sproul -- McArthur and Piper are a tad "too TULIP" for my blood...

I started studying Greek at a small Methodist University -- 900 students -- then transferred to Baylor, biggest Baptist college there is

When I talked to the Greek professor about whether I would be able to just come on in in the Fall to 3rd semester Greek, he asked "Whose textbook did you use there? Metzger? Machen?"
I said Machen, and he suggested I AUDIT his 1st two semesters in the summer, which was cheaper than real tuition and a really small class -- in the Fall - I was the lone Methodist among NINETY BAPTISTS!

I was called on to translate BAPTIZO every single time as we went through Mark, and Luke/Acts, as long as you got the tense correct, Professor didn't care if I translated it "having been sprinkelled" or whatever.

The other guys looked at me like I had HORNS ON !!

One time in class I felt water being sprinkled on my back, looked around to see the head Baptist ringleader and his cohorts dying laughing - from then on I had coffee at Student Union before class with the Baptists - I was accepted because I had been immersed at 19, though sprinkelled as a baby

This is one of those posts that needs a 'Kermit the Frog' emoticon tag that would allow me to quietly display by 'green-with-envy' status; Baylor hey, not bad at all.

 

[Biblicist]

My husband and I listened to them together on a 4 hour trip. Even his mouth flew open a number of times at the outrageous fabrications. Go to a Christian bookstore sometime and pick up John MacArthur's commentary on 1 Corinthians 14 and read it. That ridiculous heresy about the singular and plural tongue(s) came straight from Merrill Unger. Supposedly any time Paul used the singular form of "tongue" that was demonic tongues. And any time Paul used the plural form of "tongues" it was the real tongues from the Holy Spirit. The problem is when he got to a verse using the singular form of tongue (demonic) where we needed to limit them to 2 or 3 and they were to be interpreted, he did not make any comment at all (maybe we wouldn't be able to see his theory didn't make any sense!) ROFL!

27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.

Don't forget, the singular form is supposedly demonic.

I was able to grab MacArthur's Commentary on 1 Cor 12, 13 & 14 awhile back and it was certainly no better than his previous attempt back in 1978; but of course, commentary by the likes of MacArthur and Thomas can certainly make you either laugh or cry.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I was able to grab MacArthur's Commentary on 1 Cor 12, 13 & 14 awhile back and it was certainly no better than his previous attempt back in 1978; but of course, commentary by the likes of MacArthur and Thomas can certainly make you either laugh or cry.

Some are blatantly worse than others. MacArthur's book, Strange Fire, I have, but could only stomach 3 pages. I think I would have the same reaction if I were to read, which I DON'T have, The Satanic Bible. It was full of vile.

 

[Albion]

How can there be Cessationists NOW?
WHEN NONE OF THE GIFTS HAVE CEASED?

Ceased...and then started up again...means that they can have ceased and did so.

The argument of continuationists is that they could never have ceased, even if we know that they did.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Ceased...and then started up again...means that they can have ceased and did so.

The argument of continuationists is that they could never have ceased, even if we know that they did.

There was always a remnant, even through the dark ages with some of the saints, even as it does rain a bit during the summer. But the major outpourings are spring and fall, the early and latter rain. These are at the beginning of the Church and just before Christ returns for the harvest.

 

[Albion]

There was always a remnant, even through the dark ages with some of the saints, even as it does rain a bit during the summer.

That is the answer that continuationists just about must offer in response to the historical evidence that they did stop.

I don't expect a continuationist to admit that tongues can cease or did cease; they have to come up with some explanation, even if it is based upon nothing, really.

But before we leave the point that Anto9us made--that if there are Pentecostals today that fact in itself must mean that tongues did not cease--let's be clear that this 'stop and restart' phenomenon, even if true, would not verify the claim that tongues did not cease. It just means that they had ceased during most of the history of the church but not absolutely all of it.

Your approach, which is the more common reply, would be the more credible one except that there is no evidence that the proverbial groups hiding out in some caves somewhere and speaking in tongues, unnoticed by the rest of society for over a thousand years, actually is true.

And the reports of this or that saint every so often, having spoken in tongues, even if true doesn't show us any continuation. That would be intermittent, not continual, just as with Anto9us' contention.

 

[Biblicist]

Tell me, how exactly could there be cessationists in Corinth when none of the gifts had ceased at that time? Cessationists believe that some of the gifts ceased at the end of the apostolic age, so how could there be cessationists during the apostolic age? Another schoolboy error.

Can you not see the comparison between a contemporary cessationist with those of Paul's day who he deemed to be 'ignorant' or 'uninitiated' into the things of the Spirit, they are both one and same creature.

Undoubtedly Paul also had his enemies among the powerful political entities and land owners who were envious with how the Holy Spirit would work through those of less stature, very little has changed over the years on this point.

I checked over 50 bible translations to see how many of them translated charisma here as 'graces'. Not a single one. Every one translated it as 'gifts'. Looks like you are going to be busy again writing to all those translation committees to tell the Greek scholars they have all got their translation wrong. Or is this perhaps another case of all the bible versions conspiring together in another mass cessationist plot?

So you checked "50 Bible translations" just as most newbies would do if they are unfamiliar with commentaries; it's too bad that you never considered looking into the footnotes of the various Bibles that you claimed to have checked - impressive, not!

Tell me, after all your interactions on the various issues around 1 Cor 12, 13 & 14 with myself and others, are you maybe (hopefully) the only person who has never noticed the absolute incredible amount of discussion by the various commentators and translators regarding Paul's use of the Greek words pneumatikon and charisma, where the various translations will openly admit that our English term 'spiritual gift' or 'gift' is at best an approximation.

Over the years when I have come across a commentary on First Corinthians that I am unfamiliar with, I will immediately go to 1 Cor 12:1 to see what the commentator has to say regarding Paul's use of pneumatikon, if he glosses over or ignores this important element within Paul's theology I will immediately put it back on the shelf as a book not worth considering. How can you be so ignorant of something that has been discussed by commentators for centuries, let alone within with the myriad of threads on this forum - surely you are just acting the goat!

As to our English term 'spiritual gift' it does not appear within the Scriptures, for that matter, nor is the Latin/English term 'miracle' found in the Scriptures.

 

[1stcenturylady]

That is the answer that continuationists just about must offer in response to the historical evidence that they did stop.

I don't expect a continuationist to admit that tongues can cease or did cease; they have to come up with some explanation, even if it is based upon nothing, really.

But before we leave the point that Anto9us made--that if there are Pentecostals today that fact in itself must mean that tongues did not cease--let's be clear that this 'stop and restart' phenomenon, even if true, would not verify the claim that tongues did not cease. It just means that they had ceased during most of the history of the church but not absolutely all of it.

Your approach, which is the more common reply, would be the more credible one except that there is no evidence that the proverbial groups hiding out in some caves somewhere and speaking in tongues, unnoticed by the rest of society for over a thousand years, actually is true.

And the reports of this or that saint every so often, having spoken in tongues, even if true doesn't show us any continuation. That would be intermittent, not continual, just as with Anto9us' contention.

St. Francis of Assisi
St. Columba
St. Patrick
Martin Luther.
The Montanists
The Jansenists

Sparce, true, but evidence. And not unusual, as the love of many had grown cold.

 

[Albion]

St. Francis of Assisi
St. Columba
St. Patrick
Martin Luther.
The Montanists
The Jansenists

Sparce, true, but evidence.

But not evidence of continuity. That's the big issue. Anyway, I covered this in my previous post.

 

[1stcenturylady]

But not evidence of continuity. That's the big issue. Anyway, I covered this in my previous post.

Do you really believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit are going to appear in those without the Spirit? Does everyone on the earth have the Holy Spirit? How about Muslims. They believe in God. Is God going to give them His Spirit, and His gifts? How many true Christians were there during the dark ages? Basically, a few saints. This barrenness happens in the lives of many who do not have the Spirit of God. Look at Eli and his sons? It is no wonder 1 Samuel 3:1 says "Now the boy Samuel ministered to the Lord before Eli. And the word of the Lord was rare in those days; there was no widespread revelation."

 

[Biblicist]

St. Francis of Assisi
St. Columba
St. Patrick
Martin Luther.
The Montanists
The Jansenists

Sparce, true, but evidence. And not unusual, as the love of many had grown cold.

As with the dark periods during the Old Testament, I tend to suspect that the Father has always kept a remnant of his people who would walk in the Spirit during the Dark Ages of the Church, though such people would have done so to their peril as Rome would have made sure that they paid with their lives.

 

[Albion]

Do you really believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit are going to appear in those without the Spirit?

No, but that is not the issue. You cannot argue that tongues never ceased...and then use as part of your argument that there weren't people worthy of receiving them. Either they ceased or they did not.