Universalism...why not?

[ClementofA]

Of course, ALL people have the ability to obtain life, through Jehovah's holy servant, Jesus of Nazareth.
The sad truth is, most will not accept that help.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

 

[Dartman]

Of course, ALL people have the ability to obtain life, through Jehovah's holy servant, Jesus of Nazareth.
The sad truth is, most will not accept that help.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Of course! This is ONLY part of the information, but it IS important.

Rom 6:3-5 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[ClementofA]

AND, Just like I have proven repeatedly, MANY other texts make it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR, the wicked are;
Destroyed; ... Matt 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Few were finding it, is what it says:

how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it! (Mt.7:14)

Not that few would ever find it. Clearly all will find it, as the same author said earlier in the same writing:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

My 7:14 says few were finding life, present tense, i.e. at that time. It doesn't speak of final destiny.

As for destruction:

Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men. (Psa. 90:3)

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.” (Jn.2:19)

5hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.…(1 Cor.5:5)


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

Of course! This is ONLY part of the information, but it IS important.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The scriptures never speak of eternal or endless death. In fact death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28).

If something so horrific as endless death or annihilation were meant, God had words He could have used to express it, but didn't. Such as "endless", "no end", "eternal"(aidios). Since He never chose to use such words re the final destiny of any unbeliever, He didn't teach endless annihilation or torments.

For the outcome of those things is death. (Rom.6:21b, NASB)
Those things result in death! (Rom.6:21b, NIV)

Even though you experienced the end (or result or outcome) spoken of as death in Romans 6:21, that result for you did not cause you to be endlessly annihilated, did it? And neither will it for anyone else. For all will eventually be saved:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying.

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

 

[Dartman]

Few were finding it, is what it says:

how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it! (Mt.7:14)

Not that few would ever find it.

Hogwash. It is PRECISELY Jesus' point that few will EVER find it, and the rest will be destroyed.

Jesus FULLY intended to contrast Life with Destruction. Those are both end results, and they are opposites.

 

[Dartman]

The scriptures never speak of eternal or endless death. In fact death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28).

The end of death is the end of the process. There isn't a single text that offers hope AFTER 2nd death.

 

[ClementofA]

The end of death is the end of the process. There isn't a single text that offers hope AFTER 2nd death.

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign into the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15)

9 And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, 10 he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up into the ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name. (Rev.14:9-11)

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Rev.19:20)

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- into the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10)

3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him. 4 They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night shall not be any more, and no need of a lamp, and light of the sun; for the Lord God shall shine upon them, and they shall reign into the ages of ages. (Rev.22:3-5)

The verses above indicate Christ & the saints shall be reigning "into the ages of the ages", including the millenium & after the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven. But 1 Cor.15:25 says Christ's reign is until He has put all enemies under His feet. Since He is still reigning at the time of Revelation 20-22, all enemies are not yet under His feet. So neither is God yet "All in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

Therefore neither is death abolished (1 Cor.15:26), since that is associated with the end of Christ's reign (v.25). Also those humans who died a second death in the lake of fire, which is the second death, are still dead, so death is not yet abolished (v.26). As long as the second death remains & is not abolished, death is not abolished as per v.26.

Neither is "all rule and authority and power" yet nullified (1 Cor.15:24) by Revelation 21-22. There are still kings in the earth (Rev.21:24). There is still the throne of the Lamb & the saints reigning (22:3,5). So neither is death abolished or God "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

God cannot be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) while there are still those in the second death & those being tormented in the lake of fire (Rev.14:9-11; 19:20; 20:10).

In Revelation 22:2 we also have leaves that are for the healing of the nations. Who at this time would need healing?

Eventually God will be making all new (Rev.21:5) & will be "in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

And every creature which is in the heaven and upon the earth and under the earth, and those that are upon the sea, and all things in them, heard I saying, To him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb, blessing, and honour, and glory, and might, into the ages of ages.(Rev.5:13)

------------


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

Hogwash. It is PRECISELY Jesus' point that few will EVER find it, and the rest will be destroyed.

No, you are adding to & changing Jesus' words. Jesus speaks for Jesus, not Dartman.

Bible versions don't say "few will EVER find it".

This Greek Interliner says "finding":

Matthew 7:14 Interlinear: how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

 

[Dartman]

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign into the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15)

At Christ's coming, the 7th angel sounds, (also called the trump of God, in 1 Thes 4:16, and "the LAST trump" in 1 Cor 15:52), THIS is the precise timing of Jehovah establishing His Christ's reign over the nations. And,
after Jesus turns the kingdom over to his God, Jehovah/YHVH God, and Christ, will share Jehovah's throne, and reign to the eternal age, or the "ages of the ages"

9 And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, 10 he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up into the ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name. (Rev.14:9-11)

No, not "into", "to" the ages of ages. Rev 14:11 .. and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Rev.19:20)

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- into the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10)

No, not "into", "to" the ages of ages.

3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him. 4 They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night shall not be any more, and no need of a lamp, and light of the sun; for the Lord God shall shine upon them, and they shall reign into the ages of ages. (Rev.22:3-5) .. after Jesus turns the kingdom over to his God, Jehovah/YHVH God, and Christ, will share Jehovah's throne, and reign to the eternal age, or the "ages of the ages"

 

[Dartman]

Hogwash. It is PRECISELY Jesus' point that few will EVER find it, and the rest will be destroyed.

No, you are adding to & changing Jesus' words. .. Bible versions don't say "few will EVER find it".

There is a difference between "It is PRECISELY Jesus' point that few will EVER find it"
And claiming the TEXT SAYS "few will EVER find it". The first is an interpretation, the second is a claim about the words of the text.
Notice, I did NOT say I was quoting the text.

The FACT that destroys your theory is, Jesus contrasts "destruction" and "life". Your THEORY tries to make "destruction" actually turn out to be "life".
You contradict the Scriptures.

 

[ClementofA]

The FACT that destroys your theory is, Jesus contrasts "destruction" and "life". Your THEORY tries to make "destruction" actually turn out to be "life".
You contradict the Scriptures.

No, universalism does not say destruction = life. But destruction is not endless annihilation, either. Look at these verses which speak of destruction as being temporary or for a positive purpose leading to salvation:

Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men. (Psa. 90:3)

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.” (Jn.2:19)

5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.…(1 Cor.5:5)

"684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being(Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11)."

Judgement is a good thing:

"My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9)

The Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging. (2 Pet.2:9)

51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, 52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. 53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. 54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. (Luke 9)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[SBC]

If my child became a wayward soul, as any loving parent I would do everything I could to woo him back to a healthy and restorative place. I would never give up on him. I would put no time limits on my love and patience towards him.

God has no time limit on His Love.

If our Father desires all men to be saved, why can't he continue to work on their souls postmortem? If he wanted to, couldn't he do it? Can't God do what he wants to do? I think he can do what he wants to do.

There are things God can not do. For example;
God can NOT Lie.

1 Timothy 2
[3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
[4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

So, if God desires all men to be saved and if God can do what he wants to do, he wouldn't put a time limit (i.e. upon death) on his love and patience towards us.

So, if God's love and patience run out on a soul upon death, either God doesn't want all men to be saved or God can't do what he wants to do. Which is it?

God didn't put a time limit on His love.
God does not FORCE a man to "believe in Him, to submit to Him, to love Him".

God created the earth FOR mankind to inhabit.
God gave mankind stewardship authority over the earth.
God did put a time limit on how long He will tolerate the corruption upon His earth.

Scripture teaches Gods WAY;
Gods WAY IS that which IS acceptable to Him.
thus what is required by God is not secret.
thus the consequence per a mans choice is not secret.
And a time frame has been set by God, which IS a secret time frame.

God can not lie. What He has spoken shall be fulfilled. That IS His WILL.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Dartman]

No, universalism does not say destruction = life. But destruction is not endless annihilation, either. Look at these verses which speak of destruction as being temporary or for a positive purpose leading to salvation:

You are intentionally ignoring the point, because the point "destroys" your position.

It is clear, the Bible does discuss bringing the sinner to ruin as "destruction".
It is also clear, the Bible discusses "destruction" as endless annihilation.
When Jesus deliberately contrasts the broad path and the straight and narrow path, he concludes one path leads to life. That means the other does not. In stead, it leads to destruction. THIS proves the definition of "destruction" in this context is NOT "life" it is endless annihilation.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[Dartman]

God didn't put a time limit on His love.
God does not FORCE a man to "believe in Him, to submit to Him, to love Him".

God created the earth FOR mankind to inhabit.
God gave mankind stewardship authority over the earth.
God did put a time limit on how long He will tolerate the corruption upon His earth.

Scripture teaches Gods WAY;
Gods WAY IS that which IS acceptable to Him.
thus what is required by God is not secret.
thus the consequence per a mans choice is not secret.
And a time frame has been set by God, which IS a secret time frame.

God can not lie. What He has spoken shall be fulfilled. That IS His WILL.

2 Peter 3:7-18 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


The continued decline of man is proof of God's longsuffering. BUT, the day of Jehovah/YHVH God WILL come, He is NOT slack! There WILL be judgment, and the righteous WILL be given eternal life, and the wicked WILL be destroyed.

 

[SBC]

The continued decline of man is proof of God's longsuffering. BUT, the day of Jehovah/YHVH God WILL come, He is NOT slack! There WILL be judgment, and the righteous WILL be given eternal life, and the wicked WILL be destroyed.

Is your comment addressed to me in with expressive highlights in agreement or in disagreement to my post?

 

[Dartman]

Is your comment addressed to me in with expressive highlights in agreement or in disagreement to my post?

Does my post support your position, or contradict your position?
It is OBVIOUS from Scripture, God has promised to ultimately destroy those that hate Him. And Jesus has stated that MANY will be destroyed, and FEW will be given Life.
Does this agree with your position?

 

[SBC]

Does my post support your position, or contradict your position?

Can you answer what I asked?

I asked because your comment to my post, had nothing to do with what I posted.

So again;

Is your comment addressed to me in with expressive highlights in agreement or in disagreement to my post?

 

[Dartman]

Can you answer what I asked?

I asked because your comment to my post, had nothing to do with what I posted.

So again; Is your comment addressed to me in with expressive highlights in agreement or in disagreement to my post?

My post was directly related to your post. My post was in support of the Scriptures, and the Truth. Do you agree with my post?

 

[SBC]

My post was directly related to your post. My post was in support of the Scriptures, and the Truth. Do you agree with my post?

I agree with Scripture.

I don't agree you have presented a response to my post that reveals your agreement or disagreement with my post.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Der Alte]

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Once again cherry pickling versions, find a version which seems to support your assumptions/presuppositions and post it as the end all be all authority on the particular passage. Instead lets look at the interlinear..

Rom 5:18
(18) αρα G686 SO ουν G3767 THEN ως G5613 AS δι G1223 BY ενος G1520 ONE παραπτωματος G3900 OFFENCE εις G1519 " IT WAS " TOWARDS παντας G3956 ALL ανθρωπους G444 MEN εις G1519 TO κατακριμα G2631 CONDEMNATION, ουτως G3779 SO και G2532 ALSO δι G1223 BY ενος G1520 ONE δικαιωματος G1345 ACCOMPLISHED RIGHTEOUSNESS εις G1519 TOWARDS πανταςG3956 ALL ανθρωπουςG444 MEN ειςG1519 TO δικαιωσιν G1347 JUSTIFICATION ζωης G2222 OF LIFE. ​