Speak in Tongues - essential :

[swordsman1]

Not at all. Like I said, "The scriptures say nowhere that they will not also cease. That's just a simple fact."

Which is clearly suggesting that other gifts will also cease. Otherwise why say that in response to my post where I pointed out that scripture says that 3 gifts, and no others, will cease when "completeness" comes? And asking me to show where is says that other gifts will not cease, is the fallacy of shifting the burden of proof.

By the way - one should not get their theology from Wikipedia.

I don't. I get my theology from scripture and the proper exegesis thereof.

Nor should they base their opinion concerning the theology of others on what Wikipedia says about them.

Why not? I quoted Wikipedia as it gives a summary of continuationist theology. The page would be edited and maintained primarily by continuationists. If you think it is wrong you can edit the page yourself, and if your alteration meets with the approval of it's other editors your alteration will stand.

Most people - my self certainly included - are well able to tell you directly what they do and do not believe.

I didn't ask what you believed, I was pointing out what most others believe.

I can't speak for others. But I see healing, administrations, and teaching among other things on the new earth. I also see evangelism in the millennium. But then I've already said that haven't I.

You think there will be sickness in the glorious eternal state?

Teaching? By whom? Other Christians?

Why doesn't it surprise me that you are an amilennialist? You've already shown that you don't take the plain sense of scripture but try to make scriptures fit your preconceived notions.

I am surprised you are not amillennialist seeing as you claim to be from the Reformed tradition, which has historically rejected the idea of premillenialism. Calvin, Luther, Edwards, Warfield and Hodge were not premilleniallist, neither were more recent Reformed theologians such as Martyn Lloyd-Jones, R C Sproul, J. I. Packer, Louis Berkhof, William Hendriksen, Sinclair Ferguson, Leon Morris, A. W. Pink, Anthony Hoekema, Sam Waldron, James White, Tim Keller, etc.

Of course it does.

Where is Christ or his return mentioned in this passage?

Of course I do. Scripture widely distributed or not does not have a face.

Face to face does indeed "trigger off and associated idea".

That idea is that the living Word has a face and the written word does not.

Where did I say scripture has a face? 'Face to Face' is not the referring to facing Christ or the Scriptures. It is the antithesis of looking in a mirror dimly. NT prophecy was like looking at a broken reflection in a dim mirror, but when 'completeness' comes it's replacement would be like looking at someone 'face to face'.

 

[swordsman1]

I know this is off topic but could you just briefly tell me what you believe to be amillennialist?

Amillennialists do not believe there will be a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on the Earth between his 2nd coming and the final judgement.

As for tongues and the other gifts mentioned in 1 Cor. 13, they will cease when we see him face to face.

That's not what it says.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Amillennialists do not believe there will be a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on the Earth between his 2nd coming and the final judgement.



That's not what it says.

1. When Christ comes, how long, if any, will there be before the final judgment? Also, will we go to heaven, or have heaven on earth? Why is Satan bound for a 1000 years and when? He goes into the lake of fire before those in the final judgment. So what is the timing.

2. What do you believe it says? When will the gifts end?

 

[Anto9us]

Right off the bat, at the very beginning of the Corinthian correspondence that we have, Paul contrasts CHARISMATON with APOKALUPSIS -- 'gifts' with the 'end of things'.

The charisma are pictured as being given as they WAIT for the COMING.

Utterance and (Word of) Knowledge, which he later wrote would CEASE at a TELOS/TELEION -- it's all right here folks, from the very beginning of Paul's discourse to the Corinthians --

GIFTS linked with KINGDOM COME;
use the GIFTS as you WAIT for "the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."

How much clearer could it get?

Gifts last til the FINAL END, not until some "completion of New Testament" as the Cessationists falsely propose.

--------------------------

1Co 1:4
I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

1Co 1:5
That in every thing ye are enriched by him,
in all

utterance, (LOGOS)

and in all

knowledge; (GNOSIS)

1Co 1:6
Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

1Co 1:7
So that ye come behind

in no gift; (CHARISMA)

waiting

for the coming (APOKALUPSIS)

of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1Co 1:8
Who shall also confirm you

unto the end, (TELOS)

that ye may be blameless in

the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

--------------------------

The time of the operation of the GIFTS is linked with the time UNTO THE END,

from the get-go
they are contrasted

don't come behind in any CHARISMA
while waiting for the APOKALUPSIS.

This smashes completely the CESSATIONIST HOOEY that TELEION refers to "completion of New Testament".

Did APOKALUPSIS occur when NT was finished being written?
Did "the day of our Lord Jesus Christ" come at that time when the NT books were in everyone's hands?

Come behind in no gift.

Forbid not to speak with Tongues.

 

[Albion]

The gifts have lasted, but not in the way that Pentecostals insist that they have. If the discussion were to take up the real issues rather than just feature people shouting, it might have a chance.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Right off the bat, at the very beginning of the Corinthian correspondence that we have, Paul contrasts CHARISMATON with APOKALUPSIS -- 'gifts' with the 'end of things'.

The charisma are pictured as being given as they WAIT for the COMING.

Utterance and (Word of) Knowledge, which he later wrote would CEASE at a TELOS/TELEION -- it's all right here folks, from the very beginning of Paul's discourse to the Corinthians --

GIFTS linked with KINGDOM COME;
use the GIFTS as you WAIT for "the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."

How much clearer could it get?

Gifts last til the FINAL END, not until some "completion of New Testament" as the Cessationists falsely propose.

--------------------------

1Co 1:4
I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

1Co 1:5
That in every thing ye are enriched by him,
in all

utterance, (LOGOS)

and in all

knowledge; (GNOSIS)

1Co 1:6
Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

1Co 1:7
So that ye come behind

in no gift; (CHARISMA)

waiting

for the coming (APOKALUPSIS)

of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1Co 1:8
Who shall also confirm you

unto the end, (TELOS)

that ye may be blameless in

the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

--------------------------

The time of the operation of the GIFTS is linked with the time UNTO THE END,

from the get-go
they are contrasted

don't come behind in any CHARISMA
while waiting for the APOKALUPSIS.

This smashes completely the CESSATIONIST HOOEY that TELEION refers to "completion of New Testament".

Did APOKALUPSIS occur when NT was finished being written?
Did "the day of our Lord Jesus Christ" come at that time when the NT books were in everyone's hands?

Come behind in no gift.

Forbid not to speak with Tongues.

I imagine that false teaching that the "perfect" was the New Testament being published happened after the latter rain fell, back in the 1800's or 1906 at Azusa Street. I heard one pastor of that belief claim that if he didn't have it, they didn't exist.

Now where is 1 Cor. 13 does it even say the completion of all the letters, or any other verbiage that they can stand on? I remember in 1971 when I believed that and was even in the middle of debating it when I happened to read to the end of the chapter. Plain as day these won't end until we see Him face to face. I repented right there and then. But it wasn't until 1977 that I was finally baptized with the Holy Spirit and tongues was just one of the manifestations of the Spirit I received.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The gifts have lasted, but not in the way that Pentecostals insist that they have. If the discussion were to take up the real issues rather than just feature people shouting, it might have a chance.

I'm curious what you believe the "real" tongues are. Does your belief coincide or contradict 1 Corinthians 14:2? If it contradicts, then you better do a re-study.

 

[Anto9us]

"real" issues

"real tongues"

as defined by someone who thinks that what is going on now is FAKE?

I would rather focus on the beginning of 1st Corinthians than on a FALSE TEACHING
regardless of whether it started after Asuza Street or whenever;
and the beginning of 1st Corinthians does indeed contrast GIFTS and END OF THINGS

The gifts have lasted, but not in the way that Pentecostals insist that they have.

So to you, Albion, the gifts didn't cease, but the people who think they are using them today are not really using them?

I wanted to make the point that the "completion of the canon" TRIPE is not correct, if that is conceded, and you will now define "the real issues" -- go ahead, please.

 

[1stcenturylady]

"real" issues

"real tongues"

as defined by someone who thinks that what is going on now is FAKE?

I would rather focus on the beginning of 1st Corinthians than on a FALSE TEACHING
regardless of whether it started after Asuza Street or whenever;
and the beginning of 1st Corinthians does indeed contrast GIFTS and END OF THINGS




So to you, Albion, the gifts didn't cease, but the people who think they are using them today are not really using them?

I wanted to make the point that the "completion of the canon" TRIPE is not correct, if that is conceded, and you will now define "the real issues" -- go ahead, please.

I really like what 1 Corinthians 1 has to say about the timing. I never noticed that before.

 

[Anto9us]

It is a "real issue" to me that the idea that TO TELEION in 1Co 13:10
(But when
that which is perfect is come,
then that which is in part shall be done away)
CANNOT MEAN "when the New Testament writings were finished/distributed"

I understand that not all the "Tongues-Nay-Sayers" are of that opinion BECAUSE they are of the

"it was the New Testament being finished when gifts ceased" idea;

but that is a major element/opinion of the crowd that says "today's Tongues are NOT REAL".

I was saved at 19, baptized in the Spirit about a year later, in college and a regular at a "Christian Coffehouse" where Christ was presented to other college students.

The Director of the Coffeehouse (himself a college student) was a staunch Cessationist; it was the policy of the Coffeehouse NOT To talk about Tongues, Baptism of Holy Spirit, "Second Blessing" - whatever you might wish to call it.

It was NOT ENOUGH for this Director that he had our words (myself and the other charismatics among the Regulars) that we would not promote Tongues -- he wanted to convince us that Tongues had ceased.

One afternoon in the "staff meeting" for lack of a better word, the meeting where the coffeehouse Regulars met and prayed prior to the coffehouse opening for the public to come in -- this Director was showing us a hand-crafted LEATHER BIBLE COVER that he had just obtained, and everybody was ooohing and aahhing over it -- little belt-loop thingies that held the leather cover in place at three places; quite an elaborate Bible Cover...

So - around the table in this meeting - I could hear it coming, the Director was into it again about THAT WHICH IS PERFECT, looking straight at me as his tirade got heavier and heavier, until he finally RAMMED IT HOME - saying

"and what did we get that made Tongues CEASE?"

Here was the Coup De Grace as he grabbed his Bible by both fists - shoved it towards my face and said forcefully:


"THIS !!!"


And Rick, sitting next to me, quickly quipped:

"What? Your LEATHER BIBLE COVER??"

And my shoulders shook as I held my breath trying to avoid busting out laughing in the Director's face, the meeting was abruptly dismissed, Rick and I and a third charismatic somehow made it upstairs to an empty study room and we just FELL ABOUT THE PLACE, rolling on the carpet in helpless fits of laughter.
Tears rolled off of our cheeks and splashed onto our shirts. We couldn't stop laughing - we tried - we tried to get up and get ready to go downstairs and witness to people, but someone would say "Leather Bible Cover!", or mimic the gesture of the Director thrusting his Bible at me; and we would go down again and roll hysterically a while longer.

And 45 years later, and continuing all this time, the doctrine of the Cessationists has been both funny and sad, both hilarious in its preposterousness, as well as disturbing in its effect; nothing has changed.

 

[Albion]

"real" issues

"real tongues"

as defined by someone who thinks that what is going on now is FAKE?

That's right.

At least you 'get it,' even if you don't agree.

Not everyone who writes to me while filled with righteous indignation over everything connected to this subject fits that description.

 

[Anto9us]

so these 'unreal' gifts in use today -- assuming for a moment that is so -- are they purely of human origin, Satanically-inspired, or a combination of both, or is it just 'magic', showmanship - what?

 

[Albion]

so these 'unreal' gifts in use today -- assuming for a moment that is so -- are they purely of human origin, Satanically-inspired, or a combination of both, or is it just 'magic', showmanship - what?

In some cases, showmanship. In most cases, sincere 'acting out'...but still not of supernatural origin.

 

[Anto9us]

dylan ballad of a thin man youtube - Bing video

 

[Anto9us]

And so we have different FACTIONS of Tongues-Nay-Sayers; some true Cessationists, some not...

In Corinth there are four factions listed, some following Paul, some Peter, Some Apollos, some simply said to be of Christ -- but all are told "forbid not speaking in Tongues"

You KNOW something is happening here, but you don't know what it is.
Do you, Mr. Jones?

 

[Anto9us]

lamb the sacrifice lamb lamb favorites - Bing

 

[Marvin Knox]

lamb the sacrifice lamb lamb favorites - Bing

I love Lamb and have listened to the songs from that album for hours on end.

 

[Righttruth]

I'm curious what you believe the "real" tongues are. Does your belief coincide or contradict 1 Corinthians 14:2? If it contradicts, then you better do a re-study.

The real tongues (spiritual gifts) are indicated in 1 Corinthians 12:10. 1 Corinthians 14:2 is about emotional utterances by a person's spirit unrelated to the Holy Spirit since spiritual gift is always for common good not for the sake of an individual advantage.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The real tongues (spiritual gifts) are indicated in 1 Corinthians 12:10. 1 Corinthians 14:2 is about emotional utterances by a person's spirit unrelated to the Holy Spirit since spiritual gift is always for common good not for the sake of an individual advantage.

I see you still do not see that tongues spoken by someone by themselves edifies that person. And 1 Corinthians 14:2 is not interpreted as you do by anyone else, including God. It is twisting a scripture you do not want to believe.

 

[Ken Rank]

Yes, God is speaking to Himself, the things we need but don't even know about, or how to pray for them.

You may not associate this verse to speaking in tongues, but those who know about speaking in tongues recognize that this is what happens.

For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

I am sorry, with great respect, I just reject the notion. God who knows all has to pray to Himself through us for the things we don't know we need? And a verse that uses the word 'sign' very clearly to denote Christ as a child and prophetic fulfillment is also really understood to be speaking about tongues but only recognized as such by those who speak in tongues... even though you aren't speaking in tongues, it is really God speaking through you to Himself?

A. God in't the author of confusion and I am lost
B. God is no respecter of persons

You have taken one "gift" and exalted it above others making it so that having the Spirit is = to this gift when the Scripture doesn't plainly state that. We shouldn't have to play connect the dots with so serious a thing.... to the Israelite God said concerning the Sabbath, "it is a sign between me and you." You have no verse making such a claim pertaining to tongues but act as if you do. That act, respectfully, does divide brethren because "you get" and "somebody else doesn't" and that makes them less than you and less in God's eyes.

You can have the last word... this wasn't a place for me to make the case against tongues but I think I will take the information I have accumulated over the last 20 years on this and lay it out in another thread. Blessings!