Speak in Tongues - essential :

[Anto9us]

IMO - the idea that the gifts passed away because the canon was completed and circulated is ridiculous. That's because the directions for the use of those gifts in the church and privately are found in (wait for it ) - the completed and circulated canon.

Touche', Marvin!

 

[Alithis]

The Great Commission is expected of all Christians, there's no denying that.

Do I heal the sick? No. Neither does anyone else and the ones that claim to do it are the ones on a stage in a $2000 suit with actors planted in the audience. This has been witnessed countless times.

Nevertheless, mindless jabbering is not the Biblical tongues. Frankly it's offensive to not only claim it is, but claim it's the mark of a saved Christian.

The gifts ceased a very, very long time ago.

This nonsense is Satan's plan to divide and deceive people in to a false sense of righteousness as she shepherds them through the wide gate.

Ahh and here we have a most dangerous stance there ever has been .
-attributing the work of the holy spirit of God ..to the devil.
The same thing the Pharisees accused Jesus of..

Think that through..and repent.
For this uncovers the true origins of the cessationist mind.or is Not the mind of Christ.
To say the Holy spirit has ceased is to place the spirit of this world as Victor over Christ Jesus.
For the revelation of who Jesus is to each living person who believes in him ,is never a intellectual affair of flesh and blood ,but is revealed to him by the holy Spirit. An atheist can read the bible over and over and still never see what he reads. Because it is not revealed by flesh and blood.thus without the Holy spirit to continue to reveal Jesus (for he always glorifies Jesus) no one can come to a saving knowledge of him recognizing who he is .for no one comes to Jesus except the father Draws him and God is Spirit. To say his abilities have ceased is to say God has ceased to have ability.it is to demean and mock God.

And then you admit you do not Go and obey God's will any way.
Since it is he that commanded the great commission by his own living word.
You then accuse the devil of doing it??

How bizarre a web you tangle yourself in .
But you can be free . repent! It means to change your mind and agree with God and Go his way.
For God did not teach you what you teach ..a man taught it to you.And it is based upon one single out of context verse.

But to build any doctrine we must take ALL the scripture says on any given topic. Never but never one verse.especially when that interpretation has absolutely no other scripture to base it on.

Repent ,be baptised for the remission of your Sin..and you will receive the Promised holy Spirit...
God is not the promise breaker you insinuate he is.

 

[Alithis]

IMO - the idea that the gifts passed away because the canon was completed and circulated is ridiculous. That's because the directions for the use of those gifts in the church and privately are found in (wait for it ) - the completed and circulated canon

Why do I also reply to this?..because I too want it repeated

 

[Alithis]

Yes, I noticed this blooper when your first posted it but I figured that you would figure it out soon enough; for what its worth, we should probably hand your 'request over to @Alithis as being a Kiwi that will place him about 2 hours ahead of those of us who are on the East coast of Australia!

This would be so..but I'm presently in Hamburg watching the glow of burning cars in the streets wondering when things got so perfect

 

[Anto9us]

Stay safe, Alithis !

 

[Alithis]

Stay safe, Alithis !

In Our Lord Jesus..in whom our life is hid. God bless you for the sentiment

 

[swordsman1]

So, if the circulation of the completed canon is the criteria for when the gifts ceased, that would perhaps explain why tongues and the other gifts are so active in the areas where the scriptures aren't as readily available as they are in the West.

Lot of charismatic/Pentecostal activity in the world today. Just look around.

Doubt it is the true NT gift. The first thing that missionaries do when they enter areas that don't have the gospel is give them a copy of the bible (and there can't be many such areas today if any at all).

IMO - the idea that the gifts passed away because the canon was completed and circulated is ridiculous. That's because the directions for the use of those gifts in the church and privately are found in (wait for it ) - the completed and circulated canon.

Churches could still have 1 Corinthians without having the completed canon. And you didn't even need that book. In the absence of scripture, prophecy provided the necessary guidance in the faith.

Scripture tells us that tongues and prophecy would cease, and it ain't the 2nd coming as we've already seen. If it was then it wouldn't just be tongues and prophecy that cease, all the spiritual gifts would cease. There won't be any further need for healing, giving, teaching, evangelism, pastors, mercy, administration etc.

I don't depend on Chrysostom and Augustine to tell me about the use of tongues in the church and privately. I depend on the scriptures. To each his own - I guess .

The church fathers provide us with a lot of information about church history. And being that they lived only few decades after the apostles, their teaching is most likely to be the apostles teaching before any corruption set in.

 

[Alithis]

Doubt it is the true NT gift. The first thing that missionaries do when they enter areas that don't have the gospel is give them a copy of the bible (and there can't be many such areas today if any at all).



Churches could still have 1 Corinthians without having the completed canon. And you didn't even need that book. In the absence of scripture, prophecy provided the necessary guidance in the faith.

Scripture tells us that tongues and prophecy would cease, and it ain't the 2nd coming as we've already seen. If it was then it wouldn't just be tongues and prophecy that cease, all the spiritual gifts would cease. There won't be any need for healing, giving, teaching, evangelism, pastors, mercy, administration etc.



The church fathers provide us with a lot of information about church history. And being that they lived only few decades after the apostles, their teaching is most likely to be the apostles teaching before any corruption set in.

The bible is in about 1200 ..or is it 2000? Languages..
There are in excess of 6000 .
Seems it's not a very perfect method.
Its also not how the Lord Jesus told us and showed us to evangelize ....

He said Go..heal the sick preach the gospel ,drive out devils,baptize people in my name and make more disciples.

Is it not interesting that he never once said in the great commission ..go compile a libary of books .

It is also of interest that the letters of the new testesament are communications of REPLY .. Not books written for the purpose of being a book ..and we don't have the first letter to Corinth..just the 2nd and 3rd I believe.

Oh .so if that was the perfect ..it hasn't come yet...(but it's not talking about the book lol.) Its talking about when God has gathered together in one all things in Christ and then bought Christ also into subjection..and it's all finished...

 

[Anto9us]

and when did the CORRUPTION set in?

after the gifts CEASED?

 

[Anto9us]

and we don't have the first letter to Corinth..just the 2nd and 3rd I believe.

I can't "piece together" from memory everything scholars say about the Corinth letters, one that we don't have, as well as the "harsh" letter, and how to divvy up what we know as 1st and 2nd Corinthians as to chronology...

As said before, this thread is a Seminary of side-issues -- we do not have all the Corinth correspondence, but we have what we have -- and we go by it.

 

[swordsman1]

The bible is in about 1200 ..or is it 2000? Languages..
There are in excess of 6000 .
Seems it's not very perfect method.

But I expect there are very few areas, if any, that only have one rare unique language. They would need to be totally untouched by civilization, otherwise I expect they would have English at least (or whatever their lingua franca).

Its also not how the Lord Jesus told us and showed us to evangelize ....

Be said Go..heal the sick preach the gospel ,drive out devils,baptize people in my name and make more disciples.

You need the gospel to see people saved, the rest are useless to save. And where do we find that? Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God"

If they are not given the bible shortly after arriving the missionaries are certainly not doing their job.

 

[Biblicist]

So unless people go out and buy the books you cite (and some of them are very expensive), we are not to know the exegetical reasons those commentators provide to support their views. Instead we must simply take your word that their evidence is good without knowing what on earth it is.

As much as the average Christian whose only source or sources of information come primarily from the Sunday platform or from often rather dubious websites is sadly placed at a great disadvantage, there are still those who can take whatever information I provide and run with it. For those who have had the presence of mind to save the diagrams that I have constructed, where some have involved a lot of effort, where I can only recall a single person who has said thankyou, along with who knows how many lexical definitions from very expensive lexicons including excerpts from highly prized commentaries, then for those who have kept this information then they are indeed fortunate.

If any further evidence is provided I expect it is the same old debunked notions that have been offered before by continuists. Eg, that "face to face" is referring to seeing Christ; the word "perfect" that some translations use; etc.

Yes, maybe you have also 'debunked' the idea that the world is round and that the sun rises in the East and sets in the West, though of course the sun does not really rise and set and the world is not exactly round. For that matter, I wonder how many students there have been who have sat before a lecturer who has vainly tried to say that the 1Cor 13:10 is not speaking about the return of the Lord with his Kingdom who have chuckled over this among themselves on the way out of the classroom.

As for the material that you posted in a later post by Thomas I will deal with this material hopefully sometime later tonight.

 

[Biblicist]

But I expect there are very few areas, if any, that only have one rare unique language. They would need to be totally untouched by civilization, otherwise I expect they would have English at least (or whatever their lingua franca).

As I was employed by Wycliffe Bible Translators for a time (though not as a translator), you can be assured that there are many hundreds of people groups who still have absolutely no access to the Scriptures in a language that is common or even well known to many within their culture.

 

[High Fidelity]

Ahh and here we have a most dangerous stance there ever has been .
-attributing the work of the holy spirit of God ..to the devil.
The same thing the Pharisees accused Jesus of..

Think that through..and repent.
For this uncovers the true origins of the cessationist mind.or is Not the mind of Christ.
To say the Holy spirit has ceased is to place the spirit of this world as Victor over Christ Jesus.
For the revelation of who Jesus is to each living person who believes in him ,is never a intellectual affair of flesh and blood ,but is revealed to him by the holy Spirit. An atheist can read the bible over and over and still never see what he reads. Because it is not revealed by flesh and blood.thus without the Holy spirit to continue to reveal Jesus (for he always glorifies Jesus) no one can come to a saving knowledge of him recognizing who he is .for no one comes to Jesus except the father Draws him and God is Spirit. To say his abilities have ceased is to say God has ceased to have ability.it is to demean and mock God.

And then you admit you do not Go and obey God's will any way.
Since it is he that commanded the great commission by his own living word.
You then accuse the devil of doing it??

How bizarre a web you tangle yourself in .
But you can be free . repent! It means to change your mind and agree with God and Go his way.
For God did not teach you what you teach ..a man taught it to you.And it is based upon one single out of context verse.

But to build any doctrine we must take ALL the scripture says on any given topic. Never but never one verse.especially when that interpretation has absolutely no other scripture to base it on.

Repent ,be baptised for the remission of tour Sin..and you will receive the Promised holy Spirit...
God is not the promise breaker you insinuate he is.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Either way, thanks for your opinion. I'll stick to Scripture, thanks.

 

[swordsman1]

As much as the average Christian whose only source or sources of information come primarily from the Sunday platform or from often rather dubious websites is sadly placed at a great disadvantage, there are still those who can take whatever information I provide and run with it. For those who have had the presence of mind to save the diagrams that I have constructed, where some have involved a lot of effort, where I can only recall a single person who has said thankyou, along with who knows how many lexical definitions from very expensive lexicons including excerpts from highly prized commentaries, then for those who have kept this information then they are indeed fortunate.

But you are not providing the information. You said we had to buy the books ourselves to see their evidence for the one sentence conclusions you provided. Why don't you post the full excerpts so we can see what exegetical reasons they provide to support the Eschaton view?

I'll ignore the usual ad hominem mockery in the rest of your reply.

 

[swordsman1]

As I was employed by Wycliffe Bible Translators for a time (though not as a translator), you can be assured that there are many hundreds of people groups who still have absolutely no access to the Scriptures in a language that is common or even well known to many within their culture.

Of course many won't have a bible in the mother tongue of their local ethnic group. But there would be very few populated areas of the world, if any, that are totally untouched by civilization and so not be within travelling distance of a bible in say English or Spanish. If you have proof otherwise please supply a link.

 

[pescador]

Have you ever wondered why the words from Mark 16 you quote cannot be found in the Codex Sinaiticus, the oldest Bible found to date?

'Codex Sinaiticus, a manuscript of the Christian Bible written in the middle of the fourth century, contains the earliest complete copy of the Christian New Testament."

That's kind of a straw man argument, isn't it? Just because those very words don't appear in the earliest texts doesn't invalidate speaking in tongues.

 

[pescador]

Of course many won't have a bible in the mother tongue of their local ethnic group. But there would be very few populated areas of the world, if any, that are totally untouched by civilization and so not be within travelling distance of a bible in say English or Spanish. If you have proof otherwise please supply a link.

You are naive about the world my friend. There are millions of people in this world who do not have access to a bible in their native language. They may have been touched by "civilization" but that doesn't mean much in terms of native cultures and/or way of life.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Doubt it is the true NT gift.

No kidding. We've all noticed your doubt (aka lack of faith).

The first thing that missionaries do when they enter areas that don't have the gospel is give them a copy of the bible (and there can't be many such areas today if any at all).

"Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give."

Actually those are the first things charismatic/Pentecostal missionaries do when they enter areas that don't have the gospel. That may be the reason that the most dynamic and successful evangelistic endeavors in these last days are being done by those Bible believing and scripture activated groups.

If less missionaries had your negative mindset concerning the gifts - they too could hear those wonderful words when their evangelistic work is evaluated in that day.

"Well done good and faithful servant".

In the absence of scripture, prophecy provided the necessary guidance in the faith.

Exactly.

Including the tongues and interpretation kind of prophecy.

Scripture tells us that tongues and prophecy would cease, and it ain't the 2nd coming as we've already seen.

No one has seen that but you.

If it was then it wouldn't just be tongues and prophecy that cease, all the spiritual gifts would cease. There won't be any further need for healing, giving, teaching, evangelism, pastors, mercy, administration etc.

That's silly. Where does it say that they will not also cease?

If I told you that I expect that my arthritis will cease when the Lord comes - that wouldn't mean that I was saying that my headaches and hair loss won't also cease.

By the way - there will be healing, giving, teaching and administration on the new earth. In addition - there will likely be evangelism during the millennial reign of Christ on this earth.

The church fathers provide us with a lot of information about church history. And being that they lived only few decades after the apostles, their teaching is most likely to be the apostles teaching before any corruption set in.

Fathers smathers - I don't need the teachings of the church fathers on this. I have the completed canon of scripture as you well know.

 

[Anto9us]

A Bible in English or Spanish would be useless to the majority of people in the world.

I am fortunate as an American to sit here with 20 versions of the Bible in English, two Interlinear New Testaments, buncha commentaries and concordances, Greek grammar textbook authored and signed by my college Professor; not just fortunate but priveleged.