Who is Responsible for Killing Jesus?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

We'll see how that one plays out ...

Already accomplished and described by the Father in His Word.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I always understood the Gospel account - where Judas' betrayal (representing those closest to Christ), the Jewish leaders (representing God's chosen people) and Pilate's complicity (representing the Roman Empire, or in a broader sense, the rest of the world) - to be a condemnation of all of us; thus all of humankind is responsible for His death, including me.

I would think that Judas represented a type of the corrupt Jewish rulers who handed Jesus over. [Judas is also derived from the greek word meaning Jew/Judean] Thoughts?


Matt 23:33 "Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>"

John 19:
…10 So Pilate said to Him, “Do You refuse to speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You and authority to crucify You?”
11 Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me unless it were given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed Me over to you is guilty of greater sin.”
12 From this moment on, Pilate tried to release Him, but the Jews kept shouting, “If you release this man, you are not a friend of Caesar. Everyone who declares himself a king is defying Caesar.”…

Note what Paul says:

Thess 2:
…14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Judea that are in Christ Jesus.
You suffered from your own countrymen the very things they suffered from the Jews,
15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and drove us out as well.
They are displeasing to God and hostile to all men,
16 hindering us from telling the Gentiles how they may be saved.
As a result, they continue to heap up their sins to full capacity; the utmost wrath has come upon them.…

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of the tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.


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[LovebirdsFlying]

So God's only involvement was that He didn't stop it?

Noooooot exactly.

If everyone involved had only been His unwitting instruments, they would not have been at fault. But they are guilty of their sin, and therefore I conclude that they must have had some say in the matter. God wrote and conducted the symphony, but all of the musicians were well suited to their instruments and chose to play them.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I would think that Judas represented a type of the corrupt Jewish rulers who handed Jesus over. ... Thoughts?

Judas was not like the rest of 'us' - HOPEFULLY! -
the betrayer was a son of perdition ... (leave it at that, to pursue it is to fall deeper into a pandora's box of evil)....

Judas did not have AUTHORITY to crucify Jesus like the corrupt Jewish /religious leaders/ did, or to bring Jesus to court (even though they did illegally , very much contrary to their own laws even) ....

The devil was in Judas. This occurs in others also, yes, and others betray their own father, and mother, and brothers and sisters,
and brethren
the same evil twisted in soul way today, every day....

The betrayer was known before the world was created,
as nothing ever escapes YHWH's Perfect Knowing...
but the betrayer of the Master Savior Jesus Redeemer Healer
did so by his own choice. Same as many others today...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No one "killed" Jesus. Scripture makes clear that he gave up (voluntarily) his life for us. Would it be possible for us to kill God?

God Bless
Jax

Is there a difference between killing and murdering? The greek word used in James 5:6 means to murder, such as killing an innocent person for ulterior motives?
Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

Genesis Chapter 1 (YLT)
φονεύω phoneúō, fon-yoo'-o; from G5406; to be a murderer (of):—kill, do murder, slay.

Luke 18:20 The commandments thou have known, no thou should be committing adultery, no thou should be murdering/foneushV <5407> (5661), no thou should be stealing, no thou should be bearing false witness. Be honouring thy father and thy mother.

James 5:6 Ye condemn, ye murder/efoneusate <5407> (5656) the Righteous-One, not He is resisting to Ye.

Revelation 9:21 And not they reform out of the murders/fonwn <5408> of them, nor out from their sorceries,...........

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[LittleLambofJesus]

Judas was not like the rest of 'us' - HOPEFULLY! -
the betrayer was a son of perdition ... (leave it at that, to pursue it is to fall deeper into a pandora's box of evil)....

Judas did not have AUTHORITY to crucify Jesus like the corrupt Jewish /religious leaders/ did, or to bring Jesus to court (even though they did illegally , very much contrary to their own laws even) ....

The devil was in Judas. ..

Never said he wasn't.

John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

John 8:44 'Ye are of a father -- the devil, and the desires of your father ye will to do;
he was a man-slayer from the beginning, and in the truth he hath not stood, because there is no truth in him;
when one may speak the falsehood, of his own he speaketh, because he is a liar -- also his father.

You ever study this covenantle parable in Luke 16? It is perhaps my largest study in the NT/NC of the Bible. Goes with the book of Revelation like white on rice, IMHO. Thoughts

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell.................

The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity. Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35). He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23)...............

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!..........

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[Peach Springtime]

Very interesting! I have questions.

1) Do you think that God didn't know that Adam and Eve would sin?
2) Is the crucifixion God's "plan B"?
3) When you say that Judas was "chosen", does that mean he was coerced?
4) Are "mistakes" the same thing as sins?

1. God knew Adam and Eve would sin.
2. I think (even if im I a beginner t' all this) that God needed t' have the crucifixion happen t' show his love.
3. Even God called Judas a devil!
4. I meant to say that our mistakes are sins.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

A bullied teenager commits suicide by gun. Who killed him? The bullies that made him want to pull the trigger? His parents for not noticing he needed psychiatric help? His uncle for not locking his gun in a safe? The teenager, himself, for pulling the trigger?

You know that there isn't a single person who killed Jesus. The scourger is equally to blame as Pilate, the Jewish leaders, the executioner, or even God is. What are your really looking for then?

I understand.

Many men are responsible for the death of Jesus. One might say that all of mankind is, yet, God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, planned this from before the foundation of the earth.

What I am getting at is the reconciling of these two things.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Do you think it could have been done against his will?

No.

 

[Colter]

Here are a few choices. Use your free will to choose one, and please add more, if you have others.

a) Jewish leaders
b) Roman guards
c) Judas
d) The Father
e) Me

Closed minded religious people from Judaism killed Jesus.

 

[JackRT]

The direct agency of the death of Jesus were Roman soldiers carrying out the orders of the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate. Indirectly it was the Jewish High Priest Caiaphas and his inner circle of Sadducees and Herodians. The Pharisees were not involved and certainly not the Jewish people themselves. I strongly suspect that even if the High Priest was not involved that the Romans eventually would have executed Jesus entirely on their own.

 

[Albion]

The direct agency of the death of Jesus were Roman soldiers carrying out the orders of the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate.

Bingo. IF the question had been worded slightly differently, another answer might have been called for. But if it's "Who killed...." the answer has to be the people who beat, tortured, nailed, and stabbed Jesus. That was the Roman guards.

If the question were "Who was responsible?" we would have a different answer.

And if we note that Jesus went willingly to the cross or that his death was planned from all eternity, we're saying that he permitted the Romans to kill him, not that he killed himself.

Anyway, I've been liking the thread more than I thought I would at first, and that's because it's been a real discussion. Good work, guys.

 

[Pappy&Me]

I always understood the Gospel account - where Judas' betrayal (representing those closest to Christ), the Jewish leaders (representing God's chosen people) and Pilate's complicity (representing the Roman Empire, or in a broader sense, the rest of the world) - to be a condemnation of all of us; thus all of humankind is responsible for His death, including me.

The tribes of Levi, Benjamin and Judah are not Gods chosen people. This is a very common misunderstanding. Translation should be to the Israelite [aka first 12 tribes] first then to the gentiles. My understanding only from my study.
The promise was to Abrahams seed which are all Israelites not just 3 tribes. To prove this just see if these 3 tribes are the largest on earth or ever has been or one of the smallest. Also the first time the word jew is mentioned it is at war with its brothers the Israelites [11Kings 18:26 ]. Look it up and see for yourself.
Gods chosen are those who obey His and except forgiveness.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Bingo. IF the question had been worded slightly differently, another answer might have been called for. But if it's "Who killed...." the answer has to be the people who beat, tortured, nailed, and stabbed Jesus. That was the Roman guards.

If the question were "Who was responsible?" we would have a different answer.

And if we note that Jesus went willingly to the cross or that his death was planned from all eternity, we're saying that he permitted the Romans to kill him, not that he killed himself.

Anyway, I've been liking the thread more than I thought I would at first, and that's because it's been a real discussion. Good work, guys.

Theology is all about precision with words, and you are spot on. "Who killed Jesus" is a different question than "Who was responsible for His death".

Frankly, I should have worded the question, "Who was responsible for the death of Jesus?" because that's the question I had in mind.

 

[Albion]

Theology is all about precision with words, and you are spot on. "Who killed Jesus" is a different question than "Who was responsible for His death".

Frankly, I should have worded the question, "Who was responsible for the death of Jesus?" because that's the question I had in mind.

Well, you could always post a new one.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Well, you could always post a new one.

I've changed the title.

 

[food4thought]

I say all of the above.

It was sins that put Jesus on the cross, so every human being is responsible, yet God knew we would sin and therefore preordained that Jesus should go to the cross to atone for our sins, so God is responsible.

How that all works itself out is a mystery that greater minds than mine have struggled in vain to reconcile, so I'll just accept the Bible's testimony that both are true and let God have the glory.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I say all of the above.

It was sins that put Jesus on the cross, so every human being is responsible, yet God knew we would sin and therefore preordained that Jesus should go to the cross to atone for our sins, so God is responsible.

How that all works itself out is a mystery that greater minds than mine have struggled in vain to reconcile, so I'll just accept the Bible's testimony that both are true and let God have the glory.

Do you think that God used people, such as Judas, as robots to accomplish His plan?

 

[Pappy&Me]

The apostate House of Judah aka jews ordered His death but it was God the Father who sacrificed Him for our sins. He was the Sacrificial Lamb of God the Father.

 

[food4thought]

Do you think that God used people, such as Judas, as robots to accomplish His plan?

Not robots, I believe we have the freedom to choose, yet not without influences on our choices, and God knows from all eternity every choice we will make, and He set it all in motion at creation, and He influences events through His people to accomplish His will. Judas chose to do what He did, but God allowed Satan to influence him (to what extent?) to do what He did. I don't believe in libertarian free will for anyone but God because all our choices are influenced by our limitations (including the corruption of sin on our hearts and minds) and circumstances (including influences from the spiritual world). We are not totally free to choose as we will because our will is influenced by the world, the flesh, and the devil as well as God.

Clear as mud, right?