Speak in Tongues - essential :

Biblicist

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Cuz THE PERFECT has not come yet!!

I am drinking Nescafe, wondering if Waggles is doing so in Australia, praying in Tongues for a half hour...

It is Thursday in Texas, dunno about Australia
Not bad . . . not too bad, but here in Australia we tend to drink Nescafe 53 which is a less bitter version of the original. As for the time, dare I say that it is now 1.05 am Friday morning, maybe it's a hint that I need to log off from the university library (and this forum along with RT.com) and catch up on some well needed beauty sleep.
 
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Anto9us

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Get BEAUTIFUL, Biblicist!

So I guess u and Waggles BOTH are DOWN UNDER...

I have NESCAFE CLASICO

Label is both in English and Spanish

"delivers an authentic, bold, Latin flavor"
"le brinda un autentico sabor Latino"

(It's still just INSTANT COFFEE - the PERFECT has not come yet)
 
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Anto9us

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Oh - and since Australian time is a day behind me -- I'll make a deal with ya -- if TONGUES CEASE HERE,

I will let yall know -- so you can adjust.
 
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Alithis

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But this is why we're told to test things.

I certainly understand why an experiential Christian would want to believe in the miraculous without a moment of hesitation, but we're plagued with frauds preying on vulnerable and gullible people to extort or mislead in some way.

Look at Africa and its cultural backdrop of experiential religion/voodoo/black magic stuff. Is it any surprise why the Charismatic movement is sweeping the continent? Is it really any surprise they're being taken in by crooks in fancy suits? No, it isn't.

There are few better ways for Satan to deceive than to make a person think their wrongdoing is righteous.
Ok let's test things.. Is your avoidance and opposition of the gifts of the holy Spirit resulting in your obedience to him and the salvation of others
.or is it causing you to accomplish..nothing?
Do you Do the great commission or just “know about it “ ..
Do you Go heal the sick ,preach the Gospel,drive out devils,baptize people in Jesus name and make more disciples ?or did God cease expecting his own will to be done..and if your not obeying God then who are you serving?yes indeed..let's Test the spirits whether they be Of God.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Of course tongues was a manifestation of the Spirit. Nobody is denying that, it says it plainly in 1 Cor 12:7-11 along with wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, etc. But that is a far cry from saying it is the Holy Spirit who prays in tongues. Paul tells us plainly who prays, it is "my spirit".

If you are praying, then you would be using a language you know.
 
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swordsman1

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For the Christian, the Dichotomist recognises that man is now Tripartite in that we now consist of a body, soul and Holy Spirit, whereas the Tripartite view has man being a quadlateral where he then has two ‘spirits’.


That is not the dichotomist view. The dichotomist believes that man consists of two parts, a material body and an immaterial spirit/soul (spirit & soul being synonymous). Dichotomy is bipartite not tripartite. The clue is in the prefix. The Holy Spirit doesn't come into the dichotomist/trichotomist debate.

Bible Doctrine: Essential Teachings of the Christian Faith by Wayne Grudem
Another view is called dichotomy. This view teaches that "spirit” is not a separate part of man, but simply another term for "soul” and that both terms are used interchangeably in Scripture to talk about the immaterial part of man, the part that lives on after our bodies die. Therefore, man is made up of two parts (body and soul/spirit). Those who hold this view often agree that Scripture uses the word "spirit” (Heb. riach and Gk. pneuma) more frequently when referring to our relationship to God, but such usage, they say, is not uniform, and the word soul is also used in all the ways that spirit can be used. (However, many people who hold to some kind of dichotomy also affirm that the Bible most often views man as a unity, and that there is much interaction between our material and immaterial parts.)


Here’s where Fee’s solution to Paul’s use of pneuma in 1 Cor 14:14-15 solves the question of whether it is the supposed ‘human’ spirit or the Holy Spirit who is the one praying through us to the Father, where in your post #693 you stated “The human spirit's words needed to be interpreted so that the church may be edified: "Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit”, which again begs the question, who is the one praying, is it the ‘human’ spirit or the Holy Spirit as you have both the Holy Spirit and the ‘human’ spirit praying?

Tell me, where exactly does it say the Holy Spirit prays in tongues? It's not a hard question.


As we agree that it is the Holy Spirit who is the agent or originator of tongues, this means that as he is the agent that he must be the one who is praying through us

Nonsense. That is a non-sequitur. Just because the Holy Spirit enabled people to pray in tongues, doesn't mean He was the one praying.

Explain this to me.... If the Holy Spirit was the one praying in tongues then how come the Corinthians were able to abuse the gift by speaking in untranslated tongues in their congregation in opposition to the teaching of scripture? Was the Holy Spirit disobeying scripture by speaking when no interpreter was present? Didn't the Spirit know that no interpreter was present, or maybe the Corinthians were forcing Him to pray against His will?

And if you believe that Pentecostals and charismatics have the NT gift, then the Holy Spirit is complicit in sin on a mass scale, as millions of them disobediently speak in church with no interpretation. Is the Holy Spirit a sinner? Impossible.
 
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High Fidelity

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Ok let's test things.. Is your avoidance and opposition of the gifts of the holy Spirit resulting in your obedience to him and the salvation of others
.or is it causing you to accomplish..nothing?
Do you Do the great commission or just “know about it “ ..
Do you Go heal the sick ,preach the Gospel,drive out devils,baptize people in Jesus name and make more disciples ?or did God cease expecting his own will to be done..and if your not obeying God then who are you serving?yes indeed..let's Test the spirits whether they be Of God.

The Great Commission is expected of all Christians, there's no denying that.

Do I heal the sick? No. Neither does anyone else and the ones that claim to do it are the ones on a stage in a $2000 suit with actors planted in the audience. This has been witnessed countless times.

Nevertheless, mindless jabbering is not the Biblical tongues. Frankly it's offensive to not only claim it is, but claim it's the mark of a saved Christian.

The gifts ceased a very, very long time ago.

This nonsense is Satan's plan to divide and deceive people in to a false sense of righteousness as she shepherds them through the wide gate.
 
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swordsman1

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The interesting thing about the commentators that you have quoted is that they are all committed hardened cessationists (a dying breed), who admittedly have understood that the 'telion' of 1 Cor 13:10 was the last bastion of the cessationist worldview, which died a death by the mid to late 1970's, which is why they are still trying to flog what is now a 'dead horse'.

Seeing as many of those commentaries and articles were published in the 1990's and 2000's you are clearly wrong in saying this interpretation died a death in the 70's (Cottrell - 2007, Thomas - 1998, Houghton - 1996, Woods - 2004, Farnell - 1993, Compton - 2004). The completed canon/maturity view is clearly alive and kicking in academic circles.

Still that won't stop you from using plenty of ad hominem derogative cliches such as "hardened", "a dying breed", "last bastion", "flogging a dead horse", "relic of a bygone era" etc in order to try to paint the authors in a bad light.

Even the cessationist grammarian Daniel Wallace has recognised this:

Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament, Daniel B. Wallace (1996)

1 Cor 13:10 όταν δε ελθη τό τέλειον, τό έκ μέρους καταργηθήσεται whenever the perfect comes, the partial will be done away

Although there can be no objection to the τέλειον referring to the completion of the canon grammatically (for the adj. would naturally be neuter if it referred to a thing, even if the inferred noun were feminine, such as γραοή), it is difficult to see such a notion in this passage, for this view presupposes that (1) both Paul and the Corinthians knew that he was writing scripture, and (2) the apostle foresaw the completion of the NT before the Lord's return.6 A more likely view is that "the perfect" refers to the coming of Christ7 (note the terminus given in v 12 (τότε) as "face to face," a personal reference that does not easily comport with the canon view).8

Cf. also Matt 19:17; 27:29; Mark 1:4; Acts 5:31; Rom 8:34; 12:9, 21; 1 Cor 1:20, 25-28; Gal 4:27; Eph 1:20; 2:14,16; 1 Tim 5:16; Heb 1:3; 1 Pet 4:18; 1 John 2:20; Rev 3:7.

Footnotes:
6 G. D. Fee, The First Epistle to the Corinthians (NICNT) 645, n. 23, remarks that this "is an impossible view, of course, since Paul himself could not have articulated it."

7 One cannot object that the reference is not to the coming of Christ because the adj. is neuter, since the neuter adj. is sometimes used for persons for masons of rhetoric, aphoristic principle, suspense, etc. Cf. Matt 12:6,41; 1 Cor 1:27-28; Heb 7:7.

8 This is not necessarily to say that the sign gifts would continue until the Second Coming, for in Paul's mind he would be alive when Christ returned (cf. 1 Thess 4:15). Such an anticipation summarily removes this text from supporting either the charismatic or cessationist position on sign gifts.

Wallace is clearly mistaken in his interpretation and his objections can easily be countered:
for this view presupposes that (1) both Paul and the Corinthians knew that he was writing scripture,
Paul certainly did know he was writing scripture and he told the Corinthians in no uncertain terms:

1 Cor 14:37 "what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command."

As an Apostle of Christ he would have been well aware of the Apostles' responsibility as authorized messengers of Christ to write down and distribute their God-breathed words to the churches via the epistles.

Col 4:16 "After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea."

2 Thessalonians 2:15 "So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

2 Peter 3:1-3 "I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles."

And Peter also says that Paul's writings are to be regarded as Scripture:

2 Peter 3:14-16 "our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

and (2) the apostle foresaw the completion of the NT before the Lord's return.

Paul knew that only the Apostles of Christ were authorized to write scripture and soon the last of them would die at which point the NT canon would be closed. That is why near the end of his life he told Timothy not to expect new teachings but to preserve and pass on those received.

2 Tim 1:13-14 "What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus. Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us."

2 Tim 2:2 "And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others."

Jude 3 "contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints"

Paul also points out that the church was "built on the foundations of the apostles and prophets" (Eph 2:20) and foundations are not something that are left incomplete.

Paul know that they were under a new covenant. Thus, in the same way that God's old-covenant people had the Old Testament to guide them, it is quite reasonable to think that Paul was expecting a completed New Testament to guide them in this new-covenant age.

Wallace then makes the common mistake of assuming 'face to face' refers to seeing Christ face to face.

Although Wallace disagrees with most cessationists on this passage, that does not mean he is now a continuist, as his footnote explains:

8 This is not necessarily to say that the sign gifts would continue until the Second Coming, for in Paul's mind he would be alive when Christ returned (cf. 1 Thess 4:15). Such an anticipation summarily removes this text from supporting either the charismatic or cessationist position on sign gifts.


Of the 11 individuals in the following chart only two would be fully theologically Continuist, whereas the others range from being 'Open-but-cautious' to being cessationists.

252017_f56f8ef0f69e2e13f7f5989e67db1a64.jpg

Is that still the best you can do in presenting the continuationist case of this passage? The commentators you quote give hardly any exegetical evidence for their conclusion. Most are no more than one sentence long!

But lets look at them yet again:

Garland tries the best with 3 pieces of evidence:
"The battery of future tenses" - of course Paul is using future tenses. The canon hadn't been completed when he wrote to the Corinthians!
"The disappearance of the partial replaced by the complete"- Yes! partial revelation is replaced by complete revelation. Garland is making an excellent case for the canon view.
"The reference to knowing as God knows us"....Yes, now the canon has been completed we know God's revelation to man as well as God knows us....fully, intimately, and completely. 'Knowing' in this passage to revealed knowledge, not general knowledge. We will never know general knowledge fully, even in the eternal state, as that would make us omniscient.

Fee's only evidence is the "The nature of the escatological language in v12"... What escatological language? He is clearly mistaking 'face to face' with seeing Christ.

Collins gives no evidence for his assertion that it is Eschaton.

Oster:....ditto. It is interesting to see that Oster correctly notes the Eschaton is when "faith will become sight and hope will be fulfilled". Yet he did not notice that Paul says faith and hope will remain after the revelatory gifts had ceased, thus proving they cease before the Eschaton?

Witherington makes the same mistake as Garland regarding 'knowing'. He also affirms that faith and hope cease at the Eschaton yet fails to notice that Paul says they remain after the gifts have ceased.

Prior doesn't provide any evidence for it being the eschaton. He simply assumes it is.

Soards - ditto.

Taylor - ditto.

Kistemaker claims that what will be perfect will be ourselves. But there is absolutely no warrant for that in the passage. The perfect is something that comes, not something we become.

Morris - No evidence given.

Johnson - ditto.

People will notice one big difference between your list of commentaries and mine: mine go into considerable exegetical depth, whereas yours are little more than a single sentence with little or no evidence to back up their assertions. But anyway, now that you have posted the Eschaton interpretation of this passage, people can examine the arguments on both sides and judge for themselves which is correct.
 
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1stcenturylady

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The Great Commission is expected of all Christians, there's no denying that.

Do I heal the sick? No. Neither does anyone else and the ones that claim to do it are the ones on a stage in a $2000 suit with actors planted in the audience. This has been witnessed countless times.

Nevertheless, mindless jabbering is not the Biblical tongues. Frankly it's offensive to not only claim it is, but claim it's the mark of a saved Christian.

The gifts ceased a very, very long time ago.

This nonsense is Satan's plan to divide and deceive people in to a false sense of righteousness as she shepherds them through the wide gate.

You must be watching the wrong programs on TV. You would be amazed, or remain a scoffer depending on your heart, by the healings from God being performed today.
 
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swordsman1

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The advantage of having the ever decreasing number of old die-hard cessationist commentators who are still prepared to try push the old view that 1Cor 13:10 is speaking of either the death of the last Apostle-of-Christ or with the completion of the Canon in the fourth century, is that in the end, for most quasi-cessationists it is self-defeating as even a less than educated reader will realise that these two old views are baseless. So the more that they are promoted we can be assured that more cessationists will come to the realisation that Paul is saying that the Manifestations of the Holy Spirit will only end with the return of the Lord and his Kingdom.

During the massive worldwide Charismatic Renewal of the 60's and 70's, the realisation by many cessationists that Paul was referring to the future Kingdom of God was the last nail in the cessationist-coffin, where the theological coffin of cessationism in this day and age barely has a few inches showing above ground.


Another barrage of ad hominem slurs at the commentators I cited instead of actually rebutting their arguments, or at least trying to.

I think most people now recognize this tactic of resorting to ad hominem remarks is the classic hallmark of someone unable to refute an argument.

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Seeing as many of those commentaries and articles were published in the 1990's and 2000's you are clearly wrong in saying this interpretation died a death in the 70's (Cottrell - 2007, Thomas - 1998, Houghton - 1996, Woods - 2004, Farnell - 1993, Compton - 2004). The completed canon/maturity view is clearly alive and kicking in academic circles.

Still that won't stop you from using plenty of ad hominem derogative cliches such as "hardened", "a dying breed", "last bastion", "flogging a dead horse", "relic of a bygone era" etc in order to try to paint the authors in a bad light.



Wallace is clearly mistaken in his interpretation and his objections can easily be countered:

Paul certainly did know he was writing scripture and he told the Corinthians in no uncertain terms:

1 Cor 14:37 "what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command."

As an Apostle of Christ he would have been well aware of the Apostles' responsibility as authorized messengers of Christ to write down and distribute their God-breathed words to the churches via the epistles.

Col 4:16 "After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea."

2 Thessalonians 2:15 "So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

2 Peter 3:1-3 "I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles."

And Peter also says that Paul's writings are to be regarded as Scripture:

2 Peter 3:14-16 "our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."



Paul knew that only the Apostles of Christ were authorized to write scripture and soon the last of them would die at which point the NT canon would be closed. That is why near the end of his life he told Timothy not to expect new teachings but to preserve and pass on those received.

2 Tim 1:13-14 "What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus. Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us."

2 Tim 2:2 "And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others."

Jude 3 "contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints"

Paul also points out that the church was "built on the foundations of the apostles and prophets" (Eph 2:20) and foundations are not something that are left incomplete.

Paul know that they were under a new covenant. Thus, in the same way that God's old-covenant people had the Old Testament to guide them, it is quite reasonable to think that Paul was expecting a completed New Testament to guide them in this new-covenant age.

Wallace then makes the common mistake of assuming 'face to face' refers to seeing Christ face to face.

Although Wallace disagrees with most cessationists on this passage, that does not mean he is now a continuist, as his footnote explains:

8 This is not necessarily to say that the sign gifts would continue until the Second Coming, for in Paul's mind he would be alive when Christ returned (cf. 1 Thess 4:15). Such an anticipation summarily removes this text from supporting either the charismatic or cessationist position on sign gifts.




Is that still the best you can do in presenting the continuationist case of this passage? The commentators you quote give hardly any exegetical evidence for their conclusion. Most are no more than one sentence long!

But lets look at them yet again:

Garland tries the best with 3 pieces of evidence:
"The battery of future tenses" - of course Paul is using future tenses. The canon hadn't been completed when he wrote to the Corinthians!
"The disappearance of the partial replaced by the complete"- Yes! partial revelation is replaced by complete revelation. Garland is making an excellent case for the canon view.
"The reference to knowing as God knows us"....Yes, now the canon has been completed we know God's revelation to man as well as God knows us....fully, intimately, and completely. 'Knowing' in this passage to revealed knowledge, not general knowledge. We will never know general knowledge fully, even in the eternal state, as that would make us omniscient.

Fee's only evidence is the "The nature of the escatological language in v12"... What escatological language? He is clearly mistaking 'face to face' with seeing Christ.

Collins gives no evidence for his assertion that it is Eschaton.

Oster:....ditto. It is interesting to see that Oster correctly notes the Eschaton is when "faith will become sight and hope will be fulfilled". Yet he did not notice that Paul says faith and hope will remain after the revelatory gifts had ceased, thus proving they cease before the Eschaton?

Witherington makes the same mistake as Garland regarding 'knowing'. He also affirms that faith and hope cease at the Eschaton yet fails to notice that Paul says they remain after the gifts have ceased.

Prior doesn't provide any evidence for it being the eschaton. He simply assumes it is.

Soards - ditto.

Taylor - ditto.

Kistemaker claims that what will be perfect will be ourselves. But there is absolutely no warrant for that in the passage. The perfect is something that comes, not something we become.

Morris - No evidence given.

Johnson - ditto.

People will notice one big difference between your list of commentaries and mine: mine go into considerable exegetical depth, whereas yours are little more than a single sentence with little or no evidence to back up their assertions. But anyway, now that you have posted the Eschaton interpretation of this passage, people can examine the arguments on both sides and judge for themselves which is correct.


Exactly what, in your own words (paraphrase) do you believe 1 Corinthians 14:2 is saying.
 
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swordsman1

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If you are praying, then you would be using a language you know.

Try telling that to Paul.

1 Cor 14:13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[d] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.
 
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swordsman1

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Exactly what, in your own words (paraphrase) do you believe 1 Corinthians 14:2 is saying.

Seeing as the context is Paul addressing the problem in Corinth where people were speaking unrecognized tongues in the congregation, I would thought it obvious:

1 Cor 14:2 "For one who speaks in an [unrecognized] tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one [in the congregation] understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. "
 
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You must be watching the wrong programs on TV. You would be amazed, or remain a scoffer depending on your heart, by the healings from God being performed today.
The fact of healings from God is not at issue.

It's the notion that just about any Christian who claims to have received the "gift" of being able to heal other people has been seen going around doing it. That's where this discussion started, way back when, with the claim that all the gifts of the HS are available today in the same way that tongues are...and we know that every Pentecostal church is full of people talking in unrecognizable sounds they call languages. So where are all the healers?
 
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1stcenturylady

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Seeing as the context is Paul addressing the problem in Corinth where people were speaking unrecognized tongues in the congregation, I would thought it obvious:

1 Cor 14:2 "For one who speaks in an [unrecognized] tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one [in the congregation] understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. "

And tell me what the reason why God would listen to unrecognized tongues. Does God recognize them? Does the speaker?
 
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