Speak in Tongues - essential :

[Anto9us]

the theological coffin of cessationism in this day and age barely has a few inches showing above ground.

LOL

YEAH, BUT A FEW ARE

"DIGGIN' UP BONES -- EXHUMIN' THINGS BETTER LEFT ALONE"

 

[Biblicist]

It is interesting that Dan Wallace addresses -- and dismisses -- the notion that THE PERFECT is the completion of the New Testament.

English is not a language that makes much ado about GENDER of words like other languages -- we call SHIPS and NATIONS as "SHE" -- but otherwise our nouns carry no "gender" grammatically.

If I am not mistaken, even the New Testament Koine Greek does not CONSISTENTLY refer to the Holy Spirit Himself as masculine, usually it does, but sometimes Holy Spirit is neuter.

So the whole RED HERRING of pointing to gender of nouns is just that; ruah in Hebrew for Spirit is a feminine word -- I mean, these gender-benders are just another case of Cessationists grabbing at straws to prove "Tongues have ceased" when it's obvious they still go on today -- Christians DO SPEAK IN TONGUES -- it is HAPPENING.

Good grief, I'm more than just a bit impressed, your observations were not something that I expected to encounter on the forum, you are certainly well read on the tricky issues surrounding Greek word gender!

 

[Albion]

I mean, these gender-benders are just another case of Cessationists grabbing at straws to prove "Tongues have ceased" when its obvious they still go on today -- Christians DO SPEAK IN TONGUES -- it is HAPPENING.

What's obvious is that tongues ceased...but then some people, later, decided to re-introduce them, even if that meant imitating the real thing.

You may tell yourself that if something that was in evidence or operation and then ceased only to be restarted much later means that it never ceased, but it strikes most people as just plain silly to talk as though that's a correct use of the word. It's also obviously disingenuous to use "continuist" to describe something that did not continue uninterrupted.

 

[Biblicist]

What's obvious is that tongues ceased...but then some people, later, decided to re-introduce them, even if that meant imitating the real thing.

You may tell yourself that if something that was in evidence or operation and then ceased only to be restarted much later means that it never ceased, but it strikes most people as just plain silly to talk as though that's a correct use of the word. It's also obviously disingenuous to use "continuist" to describe something that did not continue uninterrupted.

Hey, the word Trinity never existed in the Church of the first century or two, does this mean that the Trinity only existed after the word was coined?

It will be interesting to find out when we are in heaven if the Father ever allowed the Church to be forced to reject much of the Ministry of the Holy Spirit during the horrid days of the Dark Age of the Church, did he ensure that there were individuals since the end of the fourth century up until the 17th who could still pray in the Spirit (tongues), what an interesting question that will be.

As many have said over the years, for most part, the Church had forsaken the fundamental Doctrine of Justification by Faith for maybe a thousand years, does this also mean that we should reject this core doctrine merely because the hardened hearts of powerful men rejected it - of course not!

 

[Anto9us]

No, Albion, I DO NOT "tell myself" that tongues were "in evidence, ceased, and then re-started."

I see that they NEVER CEASED, and that the completion of the New Testament was definitely NOT the TELEION Paul was talking about as the time when they will cease.

CONTINUIST is not a disingenuous term, I haven't used it in this thread up til now, but no reason I won't from now on...

 

[Albion]

Biblicist, if you were using "Trinity" to mean four of something, you would have a better example of how continue and cease are being misused.

All these words are real words, but they do have certain meanings. "Cease" does not mean ongoing or uninterrupted, and "Continue" does not mean stop.

 

[Biblicist]

If you were using "Trinity" to mean four of something, you would have a better example of how continue and cease are being misused.

All these words are real words, but they do have certain meanings. "Cease" does not mean ongoing or uninterrupted, and "Continue" does not mean stop.

Tell me, maybe my BibleWorks program has a few glitches, so can you tell me where our English words Continuism and cesssationism are found in the Greek New Testament, for that matter, where can we find the word Trinity as well! My point is that you are being a little bit over the top with your word games regarding Continuism and cessationism as they are merely convenient words that we use to compare Biblical theology with a now very tired humanist worldview.

 

[Anto9us]

I am getting MORE LABELS by the minute!!

I am CONTINUIST and TRICHOTOMIST -- gosh, here I thought I was just a CHRISTIAN, TRINITARIAN, ARMINIAN and CHARISMATIC !!

 

[Albion]

Tell me, maybe my BibleWorks program has a few glitches, so can you tell me where our English words Continuism and cesssationism are found in the Greek New Testament, for that matter, where can we find the word Trinity are s well! My point is that you are being a little bit over the top with your word games regarding Continuism and cessationism as they are merely convenient words that we use to compare Biblical theology with a now very tired humanist worldview.

But they're YOUR word games, not mine!

Cessationism and Continuist are words invented (and used constantly) only by pentecostals or charismatics. The great majority of Christians and Christian churches never use them since, obviously, they aren't 'into' the theory that defines your version of Christianity. In fact, you admitted as much in your closing sentence above.

 

[Biblicist]

I am getting MORE LABELS by the minute!!

I am CONTINUIST and TRICHOTOMIST -- gosh, here I thought I was just a CHRISTIAN, TRINITARIAN, ARMINIAN and CHARISMATIC !!

Oh dear oh dear oh dear, you were doing so well with your list until you mentioned that you are a Trichotomist, oh well, no one's perfect.

 

[Anto9us]

no one's perfect.

Cuz THE PERFECT has not come yet!!

I am drinking Nescafe, wondering if Waggles is doing so in Australia, praying in Tongues for a half hour...

It is Thursday in Texas, dunno about Australia

 

[Biblicist]

But they're YOUR word games, not mine!

Cessationism and Continuist are words invented (and used constantly) only by pentecostals or charismatics. The great majority of Christians and Christian churches never use them since, obviously, they aren't 'into' the theory that defines your version of Christianity. In fact, you admitted as much in your closing sentence above.

What an interesting re-write of modern history. About the only 'churches' that have not used these two particular words would be those who never use the name of Jesus. For what its worth, if the many surveys and church assessment programs are anywhere near accurate, then the vast majority of Born Again believers are in fact members of either a Pentecostal, Charismatic or Third Wave congregation, at least that's what the supposed experts inform us.

The following is a partial list of the resources that I own on church growth:

 

[Albion]

What an interesting re-write of modern history. About the only 'churches' that have not used these two particular words would be those who never use the name of Jesus.

Did you just make that up?

 

[Biblicist]

Did you just make that up?

Sorry, I forgot to provide a list of some of my resources in my previous post which I did not rectify before you posted your reply, so here it is again:

 

[High Fidelity]

Yes, I think you're right, and the evidence is in how incensed and even abusive they become when anyone dares to point out a simple fact of history, that tongues ceased. It's not as though we wanted them to cease or made them cease, after all.

I guess we just aren't Christian enough to understand

 

[Alithis]

It is not an unknown tongue or ecstatic or angelic speech, though, is it? I don't think anyone claimed that English had ceased.

No one said that it was, but you claimed to have seen:
--all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in operation, that is, not just the ever-popular tongues speaking. How fast you backed down from that one.

My wife speaks a couple of languages that probably are Babel to you.
And I didn't back down ,the gift or ability of miracles is fully operational..all the gifts are.
Your belief is lacking.
God isn't

 

[Anto9us]

I was saved at 19 -- a year later received Baptism in Holy Spirit -- it was at my girlfriend's high school graduation, also attended by two friends who like me, had been graduated from high school two years prior to her. The two girls knew I had become a Christian, knew my gf had received Baptism of Holy Spirit, and knew I was interested in it...
Somehow I wound up in their car in the parking lot of the graduation ceremony; Donna was insistent "you can receive it RIGHT NOW!".

They laid hands on me and prayed for me to receive Baptism of Holy Spirit, they were dissapointed that I did not speak in Tongues right away. Their dissapointment melted somewhat when I asked them if they saw the blue flames come through the roof of the car and envelop me. They had not seen what I saw, but I guess accepted that their laying hands on me was not a total failure. I went home to my apartment alone and went to sleep. I woke up SINGING IN TONGUES.

 

[High Fidelity]

Tut tut..now your opinion is dishonest as well. I knew what he meant.

Because I have not personally seen a person raised from the dead (regardless of knowing a person who returned from the dead) then it doesn't happen .
But by that reasoning nothing I hsvnt personally seen happen can happen .
I didnt see Jesus raised from the dead either..it's all testimony and hearsay. So it didn't happen ?
But
I believe it Did.because I am a believer.
And having believed I repented and obeyed in water baptism and received the Holy Spirit and spoke in other tongues and still Do.
I testify of this in the name of Jesus .

But this is why we're told to test things.

I certainly understand why an experiential Christian would want to believe in the miraculous without a moment of hesitation, but we're plagued with frauds preying on vulnerable and gullible people to extort or mislead in some way.

Look at Africa and its cultural backdrop of experiential religion/voodoo/black magic stuff. Is it any surprise why the Charismatic movement is sweeping the continent? Is it really any surprise they're being taken in by crooks in fancy suits? No, it isn't.

There are few better ways for Satan to deceive than to make a person think their wrongdoing is righteous.

 

[Alithis]

It is interesting that Dan Wallace addresses -- and dismisses -- the notion that THE PERFECT is the completion of the New Testament.

English is not a language that makes much ado about GENDER of words like other languages -- we call SHIPS and NATIONS as "SHE" -- but otherwise our nouns carry no "gender" grammatically.

If I am not mistaken, even the New Testament Koine Greek does not CONSISTENTLY refer to the Holy Spirit Himself as masculine, usually it does, but sometimes Holy Spirit is neuter.

So the whole RED HERRING of pointing to gender of nouns is just that; ruah in Hebrew for Spirit is a feminine word -- I mean, these gender-benders are just another case of Cessationists grabbing at straws to prove "Tongues have ceased" when it's obvious they still go on today -- Christians DO SPEAK IN TONGUES -- it is HAPPENING.

It is indeed along with all the abilities of the Everliving Holy Spirit .

 

[Albion]

I guess we just aren't Christian enough to understand

That would seem to be what we were told in post #732, all right. See below.

About the only 'churches' that have not used these two particular words would be those who never use the name of Jesus. For what its worth, if the many surveys and church assessment programs are anywhere near accurate, then the vast majority of Born Again believers are in fact members of either a Pentecostal, Charismatic or Third Wave congregation

Both points are simply inventions, blowing smoke, some would say. But there's little doubt that the message is that only Pentecostalites are real Christians.