On Free Will

[PeaceB]

Lost.

2 THessalonians 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

Just doing good will not save a person, one must have an obedient faith in doing God's will to be saved. So how can this person be without sin or be saved if he does not know God's will? Ignorance (lack of knowledge) is no excuse.

Yet you excuse infants and the mentally incompetent, who do not know God and who do not have a knowledge of or belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Could you please show me where Scripture teaches that 2 Thessalonians 1:8 does not apply to infants and mentally incompetent people? In other words, where does the bible teach that children and the mentally incompetent are excused for unbelief, but only mentally competent adults have no excuse?

For your information, Catholics, Lutherans, and many others hold to original sin, but do not teach that infants and the mentally incompetent are lost (I think that some reformed Christians hold this, but you would need to ask them about that).

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

If there were no law then there would be no transgressions but Christ does have a NT law we are under as was Paul 1 Corinthians 9:21. So one is not a sinner until he transgresses.


Adam was not a sinner until he transgressed the "thou shalt not eat" law of God. So how can anyone be a sinner when they have not sinned (transgressed God's law)? Can you call a wall painted BEFORE you put paint on it? No, then how can one be "painted" a sinner when he has not sinned/transgressed?

What did Adam eat? From what tree are we eating has to do with "Where art thou?" that God asked Adam...and Adam first perceived he was naked and ashamed...his eye sight changed.

Jesus' words about single of eye and becoming blind are the same truth as it pertains to us and sin.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

But you did not show previously how one can be a sinner if he has not committed a transgression.



Infants are born without sin, innocent and pure putting them in a safe position with God. Yet if they die in that safe state they would be saved. This applies to those with severe mental disabilities who have minds as infants though advanced in years age-wise. Original sin puts all of these in eternal torment with no hope.



Lost.

2 THessalonians 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

Just doing good will not save a person, one must have an obedient faith in doing God's will to be saved. So how can this person be without sin or be saved if he does not know God's will? Ignorance (lack of knowledge) is no excuse, Hosea 4:6.



God is all knowing and knows how men will choose. But foreknowledge does not mandate predetermination. Acts 2:23 God foreknew if He set up the circumstance by sending Christ at the time He did, God foreknew those Jews and Romans would choose of their own free will to crucify Christ. Therefore God is able to use man's free will choices to further His will without violating man's free will making Himself culpable for the sins man commits.

Scripture says For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

 

[Hammster]

ANY MAN that chooses to enter will get in. Entrance is not limited to pre-select individuals who are ALREADY saved BEFORE they even hear and follow Christ.

And any man is not of Christ's sheep until he first enters the "Door". I could not be in the building I am in now unless I FIRST enter the door. I cannot be in the building BEFORE I am in the building. So it is not possible for one to be of the sheep BEFORE he enters the door becoming of the sheep.

So sheep and anyone else can enter? Or just sheep?

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Individual election is by faith, but corporate election is "before either child had done right or wrong"! God chose Israel not because she was the strongest nation, but the weakest. Now He includes the Gentiles too, arbitrarily.

The last term has a connotation of some one doing something because He can, is authoritative. Hope I was able to convey the distinction. Please give it a thought.

Ahhh, not individual salvation, but God choosing to bring the Gentiles in. That makes more sense. I was in a hurry this morning (had about ten minutes before I needed to get my toddler up) so didn't read the post as carefully as I should have.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

So sheep and anyone else can enter? Or just sheep?

If they enter through the gate (Christ) they are sheep in Jesus' analogy and become part of Christ's flock. If they enter any other way, they are a thief, robber, etc. Once in Christ's flock, they follow the shepherd (also Christ) and respond only to His voice.

Any man can come to the Father via Christ ('enter by the gate.') Some try to go another way - but they can't become one of Christ's 'sheep' that way. The gate isn't closed to any man.

It risks mixing metaphors to take Jesus' teaching to the Pharisees on the sheep/gate/shepherd/thieves etc. beyond what each individual analogy presents as its main point and symbology.

Jesus isn't saying in the passage that Pharisees 'can't' enter by the gate, but rather that they didn't enter by the gate and so are strangers/thieves/etc. to the real sheep who actually listen to Jesus' voice. The Pharisees claimed to be followers of God, but if they were they would heed Christ. Jesus was showing their claims to be false, as they didn't listen, didn't enter through the gate, and would not give up their lives for the sheep.

None of that meant that they could not later enter the gate through Christ (such as Nicodemus may have done).

 

[jimmyjimmy]

If they enter through the gate (Christ) they are sheep in Jesus' analogy and become part of Christ's flock. If they enter any other way, they are a thief, robber, etc. Once in Christ's flock, they follow the shepherd (also Christ) and respond only to His voice.

Any man can come to the Father via Christ ('enter by the gate.') Some try to go another way - but they can't become one of Christ's 'sheep' that way. The gate isn't closed to any man.

It risks mixing metaphors to take Jesus' teaching to the Pharisees on the sheep/gate/shepherd/thieves etc. beyond what each individual analogy presents as its main point and symbology.

Jesus isn't saying in the passage that Pharisees 'can't' enter by the gate, but rather that they didn't enter by the gate and so are strangers/thieves/etc. to the real sheep who actually listen to Jesus' voice. The Pharisees claimed to be followers of God, but if they were they would heed Christ. Jesus was showing their claims to be false, as they didn't listen, didn't enter through the gate, and would not give up their lives for the sheep.

None of that meant that they could not later enter the gate through Christ (such as Nicodemus may have done).

The "thieves and robbers" which Christ was referring to were the leaders. He is the true Shepherd. They are thieves and robbers. This is not referring to the sheep.

"All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them."

Context:

“Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.a They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

11“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

14“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Yes, if any man enters will be saved. But we know that only the sheep get in. Kinda the point of having a gate.

The sheep have to go through the gate (Christ) before they become part of the flock of God. They are not saved 'prior' to entering the gate (Christ.) Equating sheep to 'saved' in John 10 does not work. When Jesus mentions His sheep not of the flock, He speaks of gathering them to Him so they might be 'one flock' and that they too will listen to His voice. It is only the sheep of Christ's flock which are 'saved' in John 10. They aren't saved simply by virtue of being random sheep in other flocks or sheep in general. They are 'saved' by being part of the one flock of the true shepherd (Christ,) and to become part of that one flock they must enter through the gate.

Sometimes 'sheep' in John 10 refers in general to the Israelites, too, and 'sheep not of this flock' to the Gentiles, so there again it is hard to equate the simple term 'sheep' to being saved, vs. the sheep who listen to the one true shepherd.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Was Jesus always the Son of God? Did He always know the Father? In the same way. . . Note the, "just as".

I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Yes, if any man enters will be saved. But we know that only the sheep get in. Kinda the point of having a gate.

Only the sheep even walk in His direction when they hear Him call.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

The "thieves and robbers" which Christ was referring to were the leaders. He is the true Shepherd. They are thieves and robbers. This is not referring to the sheep.

"All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them."

Any -man- who enters not via the gate is not the shepherd in His analogies, but a thief/robber/stranger, etc. In his second section (Jn 10:7-10), he uses both sheep and human intruders as symbols. While part of the section deals with the inauthenticity of intruders, he does clearly speak of being the gate for the sheep as well. "I am the gate for the sheep....I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. "

Only the sheep who enter through the gate will be saved, and hence follow the good shepherd in and out of the gate and 'find pasture.' That is why Jesus' sheep 'not of this flock' have to be brought in (through the gate) to actually become part of the one flock under the one shepherd.

Again, sheep in scripture don't automatically mean saved, any more than the mention of a shepherd always automatically means Christ (Take Zech 11, for example). Each section of John 10 must be taken for the point Jesus is making, with the meanings He ascribes, rather than extrapolating beyond the text.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Any -man- who enters not via the gate is not the shepherd in His analogies, but a thief/robber/stranger, etc. In his second section (Jn 10:7-10), he uses both sheep and human intruders as symbols. While part of the section deals with the inauthenticity of intruders, he does clearly speak of being the gate for the sheep as well. "I am the gate for the sheep....I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. "

Only the sheep who enter through the gate will be saved, and hence follow the good shepherd in and out of the gate and 'find pasture.' That is why Jesus' sheep 'not of this flock' have to be brought in (through the gate) to actually become part of the one flock under the one shepherd.

Again, sheep in scripture don't automatically mean saved, any more than the mention of a shepherd always automatically means Christ (Take Zech 11, for example). Each section of John 10 must be taken for the point Jesus is making, with the meanings He ascribes, rather than extrapolating beyond the text.

Have you read the entire passage? I can't image anyone could and post what you just have.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Have you read the entire passage? I can't image anyone could and post what you just have.

Refer back to post #310 where I go through the whole chapter.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Refer back to post #310 where I go through the whole chapter.

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Is there anything uncertain about the fate of these sheep?

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Was Jesus always the Son of God? Did He always know the Father? In the same way. . . Note the, "just as".

I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father.

In John 10:15, Jesus isn't speaking of true knowledge (epignoses) but regular knowledge (gnosis.) He is comparing that just as Jesus perceives the Father and the Father perceives Jesus, so the sheep perceive their shepherd and the shepherd knows His sheep.

There is nothing in that comparison to demand that the knowledge be identical in every way, including duration, nor that that knowledge go beyond mere gnosis into experiencing the exact same true knowledge of the Father which Christ has.

For example, John 3:14-15 says "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” The comparison is between the 'lifting up' for the sake of 'life' - but it is not meant to be taken as a 100% equivalent. Jesus wasn't lifted up on a metal pole. His lifting up grants eternal life to those who believe in Him, not physical life to those who merely look at Him.

The sheep did not always know the father. Did any believer know Jesus -before- they had faith in them? No, some were outright hostile to God! (Tit 3:3, Rom 11:30, I Cor 6:11, Rom 6:6, etc.) We only know the shepherd once we come in through the gate. (Jn 14:6, Jn 10:7-10) Do we now know Christ exactly in the same way, in every way, that Christ knows the Father? No! One day we will see face to face, but now we see through a glass darkly.

"For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." I Cor 13:12

We are not complete in our true/relational knowledge of Christ - rather we are growing in it. (II Pet 1:3-11)

Note the above two passages are about true relational knowledge, epignosis, not mere gnosis. There is no way to take Jn 10:15 as meaning that Christ's followers have 'always' known Christ their whole lives and have an identical breadth and depth of relational knowledge with the Father as Christ has.

 

[Hammster]

If they enter through the gate (Christ) they are sheep in Jesus' analogy and become part of Christ's flock. If they enter any other way, they are a thief, robber, etc. Once in Christ's flock, they follow the shepherd (also Christ) and respond only to His voice.

Thanks. That's Reformed theology.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Is there anything uncertain about the fate of these sheep?

The 'sheep not of this pen' that must be brought in are the Gentile believers. Individual Gentiles still have to enter through the gate to actually become part of Jesus' one flock - they are not part of the flock until they enter the gate. Jesus is speaking prophetically that there will be those among the Gentiles that Jesus leads into His flock, not setting up a teaching that there are already believers with eternal life among the Gentiles. The process by which people come to follow Jesus (faith) is amply described throughout the new testament.

It is much like when the Lord tells Paul, "For I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city." Acts 18:9

Or when Caiphas prophesied, "and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad." Jn 11:52

God is outside of time. He knows His children, no matter when they come to Him through faith in Christ. That there would be children of God among the Gentiles (those would believe in response to the gospel) was a shock, and an offense, to the Jews who believed that they alone had the right to be the children of God.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Thanks. That's Reformed theology.

I'm pretty sure that the necessity of entering through the gate (Christ) to become followers of Christ is a core teaching of the gospel, not an exclusive belief of reformed theology.

Reformed theology (at least, from what I've gathered from people who claim to be reformed) holds that some individuals are destined arbitrarily (not by faith) by God to enter the gate and so must, due to irresistible grace, enter the gate through faith; while others are unable to even desire to enter the gate, let alone enter it; a teaching which goes far beyond the import of John 10.

 

[Hammster]

The sheep have to go through the gate (Christ) before they become part of the flock of God. They are not saved 'prior' to entering the gate (Christ.) Equating sheep to 'saved' in John 10 does not work

It does if you consider that only sheep receive salvation. The argument isn't that the sheep are already saved. Just that they will be.

 

[Hammster]

I'm pretty sure that the necessity of entering through the gate (Christ) to become followers of Christ is a core teaching of the gospel, not an exclusive belief of reformed theology.

Reformed theology (at least, from what I've gathered from people who claim to be reformed) holds that some individuals are destined arbitrarily (not by faith) by God to enter the gate and so must, due to irresistible grace, enter the gate through faith; while others are unable to even desire to enter the gate, let alone enter it; a teaching which goes far beyond the import of John 10.

Are you backtracking? Earlier you said that those who enter through the gate are sheep. Can those who are not sheep enter through the gate?