Eternal Torment, Annihilation or Universal Reconciliation?

[Der Alte]

Pharisees or not is besides the point which you don't seem to be getting.
As i showed your own quotes of the Jews reject this claim of yours:
"Before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of fiery unending punishment and they called it both Gehimmom/Gehenna and sheol/hades."
Because your quotes of the Jews say Gehenna/hell will be destroyed and pass away.
Therefore these Jews you quoted did not believe it was a "place of...unending punishment", as you claim, because that is impossible for a place that ceases to exist.

I have found it to be most helpful if one reads a post before trying to respond to it. But maybe that is just me? The relevant part of my post. Scripture highlighted in blue.

• (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
• But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b).
• All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
• … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).
• When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).
• The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al).
• "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).
• The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers,
• they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said
• [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched."
• Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "
• And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]:
• "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

 

[ClementofA]

They get out of "hell"/Hades (Luke 16:19-31) in Revelation 20:13-15, if not sooner.

In those verses does hades refer to the grave or to the place punishment?

When men stand at the great white throne will they still be in any kind of Hades? Take a look at this & let me know what you think:

"11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

BTW, if the rich man/Lazarus story (Luke 16:19-31) is entirely literal & refers to bodiless humans, why does it make several references to body parts?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

I have found it to be most helpful if one reads a post before trying to respond to it. But maybe that is just me? The relevant part of my post. Scripture highlighted in blue.

​

If you have a point to make, state it. Don't be shy. As opposed to this - look at the blue highlights - nonsense. This is a discussion forum.

 

[Der Alte]

The passage speaks of only one person who was being tormented there. And for all we know his torments were over within 5 minutes. Since Love Almighty is present even in Hades & omnipotent, He can easily relieve anyone's torment anytime that He pleases to do so. Do you deny His unfailing love, omnipresence & omnipotence?
"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol/Hades/hell), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

Your out-of-context proof text cannot contradict the words of Jesus.

Luke 16:26
(26) And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'​

When does this verse change to say "those who want to go from here to you can any time they want to, and anyone can cross over from there to us any time they want to?.' That vs. was written about 2000 years ago and it still reads exactly as written then.

Your version quoted speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so.

Luke 16:26
(26) And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'​

Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

You used the word "possible" twice in this brief statement and not one sliver of scripture to support it.

According to the Jews (Pharisees) you love to quote thinking it supports your views, many of the wicked who descend to Gehenna/hell will come up again. Does this passage disprove what the Jews said? Or do you still say that Jesus never contradicted their beliefs?

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Matthew 25:31-32
(31) "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
(32) All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Matthew 25:41
(41) "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Revelation 20:11-12
(11) Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.​

We are told the rich man requested water. He seemed to think a few drops of water would ease his sufferings. Apparently this isn't served in "hell" (Hades), but whether or not alcohol & morphine is on the menu is not revealed. After all, God is omnipresent.

Luke 16:27-28 seems to show the rich man's concern for others. Perhaps he was beginning to have a change of heart. Supposedly that is the purpose of those in Hades recieving the word of the Lord, in this case via Abraham.

Answered this in [post #98]

Any proof that the story of the rich man & Lazarus disproves universalism is totally absent from your post.

You're entitled to your opinion.

 

[Der Alte]

If you have a point to make, state it. Don't be shy. As opposed to this - look at the blue highlights - nonsense. This is a discussion forum.

My post responded to your misrepresentation of my previous post, so I posted it again and you continue to ignore it. Matthew 27:24

 

[ClementofA]

Seriously? The whole story is evidence of that. There is a man who is safe and man who is in torment who says he doesn't want his relatives to suffer like he is. That in itself is evidence. But if you don't like that how about other words of Jesus who said this.

“Not everybody who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will get into the kingdom of heaven. Only those who do the will of my Father who is in heaven will enter.On the Judgment Day, many people will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name and expel demons in your name and do lots of miracles in your name?’Then I’ll tell them, ‘I’ve never known you. Get away from me, you people who do wrong.’ - Matthew 7:21-23 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:21-23 - Common English Bible

That shows not everyone gets to be with him. And the end if Revelation is key in showing that Universalism is not scriptural. Only the ones whos names are found in the Book of Life are saved.

Matthew 7 says some will not get into heaven on judgement day. It doesn't say they will never get into heaven. In fact they eventually will, as the same author wrote a few chapters earlier:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

Matthew 7:23 refers to what happens on a "day", not final destiny when God will be "All in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28).

Ditto re the book of life.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Lazarus Short]

God is God and Jesus is God and Jesus said

"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Matthew 25:31-46​

Eternal punishment is not the same thing as going into eternal life, is it?

Well, I covered that very passage, and all I can say is - read that text in an interlinear version and you may find that some of the key words (such as "eternal") do not mean what you think they do. Those who Jesus turned away into age-long punishment/cleansing are also those who have built wood, hay and stubble on the foundation of Jesus Christ, as we see in I Corinthians 3:12. The conclusion is that, "If any mans's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (verse 15).

We can swap Bible verses all day, but I don't expect our respective doctrines to change.

 

[Der Alte]

They get out of "hell"/Hades (Luke 16:19-31) in Revelation 20:13-15, if not sooner.
When men stand at the great white throne will they still be in any kind of Hades? Take a look at this & let me know what you think:
"11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

Doesn't answer my question.

BTW, if the rich man/Lazarus story (Luke 16:19-31) is entirely literal & refers to bodiless humans, why does it make several references to body parts?

Where does anything say Luke 167:19-31 refers to bodiless humans?

• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position , and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• Tertullian Part First [A.D. 145-220.]
9. A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
• The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence. ​

 

[Lazarus Short]

Matthew 7 says some will not get into heaven on judgement day. It doesn't say they will never get into heaven. In fact they eventually will, as the same author wrote a few chapters earlier:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

Matthew 7:23 refers to what happens on a "day", not final destiny when God will be "All in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28).

Ditto re the book of life.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Exactly - how is God to ever become All in all if anyone is still dead and/or in Hell? To date, no Damnationist has given me a good answer to my question. I'm not sure they can.

 

[Der Alte]

Well, I covered that very passage, and all I can say is - read that text in an interlinear version and you may find that some of the key words (such as "eternal") do not mean what you think they do. Those who Jesus turned away into age-long punishment/cleansing are also those who have built wood, hay and stubble on the foundation of Jesus Christ, as we see in I Corinthians 3:12. The conclusion is that, "If any mans's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (verse 15).
We can swap Bible verses all day, but I don't expect our respective doctrines to change.

How many semesters of Koine Greek have you had or do you just find something, anything written by someone, somewhere which supports your assumptions/presuppositions?
.....Many people quote I Cor 3:12 out-of-context as a proof text for universalism. But when read in context the verses clearly does not support universalism. "Any man", "every man" in this passage does not refer to all mankind but only those who build on the foundation laid by Jesus Christ, vss. 11-12.

1 Corinthians 3:11-17
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.​

"Every man in vs. 13 is not every man who ever lived in the world but those who built on the foundatin of Jesus Christ, vss. 11-12

(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.​

This verse does not say that anyone will be burned only the work of those who have built on the foundation of Jesus Christ vss. 11-12. And it does not say any person is burned or saved by fire but they are saved "so as by fire."

(16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

This passage does not say that everyone who ever lived will be saved because it goes on to say anyone who defiles the temple of God will be destroyed not saved.

 

[ClementofA]

Exactly - how is God to ever become All in all if anyone is still dead and/or in Hell? To date, no Damnationist has given me a good answer to my question. I'm not sure they can.

Good point. I'm sure you're aware how the Calvinists might try to weasel out of that one. Damnationists commentaries i've looked at tend to ignore such passages. It's the "see no evil" ostrich head in the sand trick ;

 

[ClementofA]

Irrelevant. A "scholar" giving his/her opinion about historical events, without providing credible, verifiable, historical evidence is no more compelling than any average person giving their opinion.

What do historical events have to do with your theory about OLAM always meaning "for ever" & it is used hyperbolicly? Most scholars disagree with you. You're in the minority camp. Possibly an extremely small minority.

Irrelevant. The Hebrew word "Olam" occurs 414 times in the OT. Of that it is translated as "for ever" 335 times in the JPS. Are you familiar with the word "hyperbole?" Was Peter actually the devil or a rock when Jesus called him that? Were James and John literally sons of thunder when Jesus called them that. Was Herod actually a fox when Jesus called him one.

You've provided no evidence the JPS 1917 translation agrees with your opinion. You have not quoted a single author or scholar who agrees with this opinion of yours:

I am quite sure the Jewish scholars who translated the JPS OT in 1917 knew the meaning of "olam" therefore the word must mean "for ever."
.....What about those times it is used to mean something which is not eternal? That is called hyperbole.

Who supports you on that opinion? Anyone?

If the word must mean forever, then how is it used to mean NOT forever? Context determines the meaning of words.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[victorinus]

You try to dodge the meaning of sentences which are in no way ambiguous.

this is why we need a pope

 

[ClementofA]

God is God and Jesus is God and Jesus said

"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Matthew 25:31-46​

Eternal punishment is not the same thing as going into eternal life, is it?

Some alternate translations have:

Young‘s Literal Translation: ―punishment age-during.
Rotherham Translation: ―age-abiding correction.
Weymouth Translation: ―punishment of the ages.
Concordant Literal Translation: ―chastening eonian."

eonian, "αἰώνιος...lasting for an age...partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting... (also used of past time, or past and future as well) Derivation: from G165;" G166 αἰώνιος - Strong's Greek Lexicon

The "eternal" (eonian) fire that burned Sodom went out long ago:

Jude 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."

"2851. kolasis...Short Definition: chastisement, punishment..."

"In the late 2nd century/early 3rd century, Clement of Alexandria clearly distinguished between kólasis and timoria: “For there are partial corrections [padeiai] which are called chastisements [kólasis], which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord’s people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father, so are we by Providence. But God does not punish [timoria], for punishment [timoria] is retaliation for evil. He chastises, however, for good to those who are chastised collectively and individually” (Strom. 7.16)."

From Here to Eternity: How Long is Forever?


On page 30 of the following url/book Tom Talbott is quoted:

"The Gospel writers thought in terms of two ages, the present age and the age to come, and they associated the age to come with God himself; it was an age in which God‘s presence would be fully manifested, his purposes fully realized, and his redemptive work eventually completed. They therefore came to employ the term, ―αίώνίος, [aionios] as an eschatological [doctrine of end times] term, one that functioned as a handy reference to the realities of the age to come. In this way, they managed to combine the more literal sense of ―that which pertains to an age with the more religious sense of ―that which manifests the presence of God in a special way. Eternal life, then, is not merely life that comes from God; it is also the mode of living associated with the age to come. And similarly for eternal punishment: It is not merely punishment that comes from God; it is also the form of punishment associated with the age to come. Now in none of this is there any implication that the life that comes from God and the punishment that comes from God are of an equal duration. 12"

Earlier in the book of Matthew the same author wrote:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

From page 26 the passage in Matthew 25 is considered at:

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[lesliedellow]

this is why we need a pope

We need nobody pretending that he is infallible, thanks very much.

 

[Servant232]

My Bible says that at this Moment God alone has Immortality and that the Believer will be given Immortality on the last day of this age, In the Resurrection of the Just ...

Those saved - Having already received Eternal Life in the Son by the Gospel, redeeming the soul ..

All those that have died in Him, He brings with Him, and they will resurrect first on that day, then those that are alive and remain will put on Immortality also

It was the serpent that said, you shall not surely die

But Yeshua said, And It is Written in Matthew 10:
28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Geheena.

Destroy, Greek - Apollymi , To Annihilate entirely

Geheena, where the tares will go, and they will be burned in a fire that can not be quenched... the fire that will not be put out..... Meaning whatever goes into It is DESTROYED. even death and hell itself will be no more

Which makes

The Punishment Everlasting in that It's final and there is no returning from it.. This occurs at the second death, then that soul is destroyed, just like it had never existed, after the appropriate amount of punishment is given... some pay for most of their sins now in this life that are headed towards destruction, while others will receive many stripes before they are destroyed, carries over...

Servant232

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now From Jewish Not Greek

The following is Their Summary of a lengthy article that addresses all the verses that the unlearned believe teach that eternal conscience torment is true and Biblical... For those that choose to follow after a god, that they believe will burn the majority of those that have lived - alive forever in torments for the sins committed in the few short years of their life...and they call that Freedom of Choice , OY VEY That's A Despicable impostor, a doctrine of the father of lies......

and they teach what the

Greek Philosophers Taught:

It is clear that PLATO and many Greek philosophers taught the soul was indestructible:

''The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent.''The Jewish Encyclopedia (www.jewishencyclopedia.com, searched "immortality")

"Among major schools of Greek thought, only Epicureans denied the soul's immortality." (Craig S. Keener, The IVP Bible Background Commentary New Testament, Downers Grove, Inter Varsity Press, 1993, p.374)

"...immortality of the soul, as normally understood, is not a Biblical doctrine" (The International Bible Commentary, second edition, Grand Rapids, MI, Zondervan Publishing House, 1986, p.60 column 2)

"It is a truism that Plato's teaching has profoundly influenced Christian anthropology." (Forward by F.F. Bruce, The Fire that Consumes, Edward Fudge)

Conclusion: Except for the Epicureans, Greek philosophers taught of the soul's natural immortality-without God.

Jewish Apostles Taught:

However, the scriptures teach the soul is destructible and immortality is part of the gospel.

"Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body..." (Matthew 10:28)

"There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy" (James 4:12)

"...who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Tim 1:10)

Conclusion: Jesus and James taught the soul was destructible. Paul taught that immortality is brought through the gospel.


Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

The gospel is not where you will spend eternity, but rather, will you have an eternity at all... Narrow is the gate that leads to eternal Life, and few find it per God's Word, If you don't believe what He said, then you deny Him and His Words

The God who created your soul can destroy it....... PERIOD

 

[Der Alte]

What do historical events have to do with your theory about OLAM always meaning "for ever" & it is used hyperbolicly? Most scholars disagree with you. You're in the minority camp. Possibly an extremely small minority.

The word is "hyperbolically" which is the adjective form of "hyperbole.'
E.W. Bullinger, Figures of Speech in the Bible
Rhetorical exaggeration. Hyperbole is often accomplished via comparisons, similes, and metaphors.
Examples
I've told you a million times not to exaggerate.
Related Figures
Figures of Excess and Superfluity
Figures of Amplification
auxesis
litotes
bomphiologia
metalepsis
metaphor
See Also
General Rhetorical Strategy: Amplification
Sources: Aristotle 3.11.15-16; Ad Herennium 4.33.44 ("superlatio"); Quintilian 8.6.67-76; Bede 615; Trebizond 61v ("superlatio," "hyperbole"); Susenbrotus (1540) 17-19 ("hyberbole," "superlatio," "dementiens superiectio," "eminentia," "excessus"); Sherry (1550) 71; Peacham (1577) D4v; Putt. (1589) 202 ("hiperbole," "over reacher or the loud lyer"); Day 1599 80; Butler B1r-v​

You've provided no evidence the JPS 1917 translation agrees with your opinion. You have not quoted a single author or scholar who agrees with this opinion of yours:

I posted my "evidence" when I said "olam" occurs 414 times, 81% of the time, in the OT. Of that it is translated "for ever" 339 times. Meaning that 75 times it is translated as something else.

Who supports you on that opinion? Anyone?

The Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars who translated the 1917 JPS.

If the word must mean forever, then how is it used to mean NOT forever? Context determines the meaning of words.

Answered above.

עוֹלָם S5769, 5865 TWOT1631a GK6409, 6518439 n.m. long duration, antiquity, futurity;—ע׳ Gn 9:12 + 405 times; עֹלָם 3:22 + 19 times; עֵילוֹם 2 Ch 33:7, read prob. עוֹלָם (for other explan. v. note in KitHpt); sf. עֹלָמוֹ Ec 12:5; pl. עוֹלָמִים Is 26:4 + 7 times, עֹלָמִים ψ 145:13 + 2 times; cstr. עוֹלְמֵי Is 45:17;—† 1. of past time: a. ancient time: יְמֵי ע׳ days of old Is 63:9, 11 Am 9:11 Mi 5:1; 7:14 Mal 3:4; יְמוֹת ע׳ Dt 32:7; עַם ע׳ Is 44:7 ancient people; גּוֹי מֵע׳ Je 5:15; חָרְבוֹת ע׳ old waste places Is 58:12 61:4, cf. Ez 26:20 b; פִּתְחֵי ע׳ ancient gates ψ 24:7, 9; ארח ע׳ Jb 22:15; נתבות ע׳ Je 6:16; שְׁבִילֵי ע׳ 18:15; גבול ע׳ Pr 22:28; 23:10; במות ע׳ Ez 36:2; מִן (םֵ)ע׳ from of old Is 64:3 Je 2:20 Jo 2:2, of the fathers Jos 24:2, the prophets Je 28:8, the ancient נפלים Gn 6:4; (Ez 32:27 G Co for מערלים; but 1 S 27:8 read מִטֵּלָם for מעולם We Dr HPS); בהם ע׳ long in them Is 64:4 (text dub.). b. מֵתֵי ע׳ the long dead ψ 143:3 La 3:6; so עַם ע׳ Ez 26:20. c. of God, מֵע׳: former acts Is 46:9; as redeemer Is 63:16; of love ψ 25:6, judgment 119:52, dominion Is 63:19; long silence 42:14; 57:11 G B Michaelis conj. מַעְלִם for מֵעוֹלָם; cf. I. [עָלַם] Hiph. ψ 10:1; his wisdom personif. Pr 8:23; his existence ψ 93:2. d. of things: גבעות ע׳ ancient hills Gn 49:26 (J), Hb 3:6 (|| הררי־עד), Dt 33:15 (|| הררי קדם). e. pl. שְׁנוֹת עולמים ψ 77:6 years of ancient times; דורות עולמים Is 51:9; לעלמים Ec 1:10 in olden times. 2. a. indef. futuring, c. prep. for ever, always (sometimes = during the lifetime); עֶבֶד עולם slave for ever Dt 15:17 1 S 27:12 Jb 40:28; עָבַד לע׳ serve for ever Ex 21:6 (E), Lv 25:46; עד ע׳ 1 S 1:22; גְּאֻלַּת ע׳ Lv 25:32 redemption at any time; הֲרַת ע׳ Je 20:17 ever pregnant (womb); כְּלִמַּת ע׳ v 11 of persecutors of Jeremiah; חרפת ע׳ 23:40; שַׁלְוֵי ע׳ ψ 73:12 alway at ease; יְחִי לע׳ (יחיה) may the king live alway 1 K 1:31 Ne 2:3; cf. אֹרֶךְ יָמִים עולם ועד ψ 21:5; ישׁב עולם לפני אלהים 61:8; so of the pious, לע׳ לא ימוט 15:5; בל ימוט Pr 10:30, cf. ψ 30:7; other phr.: ψ 37:27, 28 41:13; 55:23; 61:8; 73:26; 121:8 Pr 10:25; ע׳ אשׁירה ψ 89:2 I will sing for ever (as long as I live), cf. 52:10; 115:18; 145:1, 2; הוֹדה לע׳ 30:13; 44:9; 52:11; 79:13; other emotions and activities continuous through life 5:12; 31:2 = 71:1, 75:10; 86:12; 119:44, 93, 98, 111, 112 Mi 4:5, cf. לע׳ 2:9. b. = continuous existence, (1) of things: the earth, הָאָרֶץ לְעוֹלָם עֹמֶדֶת Ec 1:4; other phr.: ψ 78:69; 104:5, heavens and contents 148:6, ruined cities Is 25:2; 32:14 Ez 26:21; 27:36; 28:19, ruined lands Je 18:16; 25:9, 12; 49:13, 33; 51:26, 62 Ez 35:9 Zp 2:9; לעד עד ע׳ Is 30:8 for a witness for ever, in a book; (2) of nations: לעולם אהיה 47:7 (Babylon loqu.), cf. ψ 81:16 Ob 10; ישׁב לע׳ of Judah Jo 4:20; (3) families ψ 49:12 Is 14:20; the dynasty of Saul 1 S 13:13; house of Eli 2:30; (4) national relations: איבת ע׳ continual enmity Ez 25:15; 35:5; of exclusion from קהל י׳, עד ע׳ Dt 23:4 = Ne 13:1; various relations Is 32:17; 34:10; חרפת ע׳ perpetual reproach ψ 78:66, of dynasty of David 2 S 3:28; 12:10 1 K 2:33, families v 33 2 K 5:27 ψ 106:31 Je 35:6. c. of divine existence: אל עולם Gn 21:33 (J); אלהי ע׳ Is 40:28; חי אנכי לע׳ Dt 32:40; חֵי הע׳ Dn 12:7; of divine name, זה שׁמי לְע׳ Ex 3:15 (E), cf. 2 Ch 33:7 (v. supr.); blessing and praise of it 2 S 7:26 = 1 Ch 17:24, ψ 72:19; 135:13; of י׳ himself 89:53; attributes, אהבה Je 31:3 1 K 10:9; חסד Is 54:8 ψ 89:2; 138:8; לע׳ חַסְדּוֹ 1 Ch 16:34, 41 2 Ch 5:13; 7:3, 6; 20:21 Ezr 3:11 ψ 100:5; 106:1; 107:1; 118:1, 2, 3, 4, 29; 136:1 + 25 times, Je 33:11; כבוד ψ 104:31; אמת 117:2; 146:6; צדק 119:142; עצה 33:11; reign Ex 15:18 (E), ψ 10:16; 66:7; 92:9; 146:10 Je 10:10 Mi 4:7; יהוה לע׳ ישׁב ψ 9:8; 29:10; 102:13 La 5:19; presence in Zion 1 Ch 23:25 Is 33:14; 60:19, 20 Ez 37:28; 43:7, 9; his salvation Is 51:6, 8; זרעת ע׳ Dt 33:27 everlasting arms; כל אשׁר יעשׂה האלהים יהיה לע׳ Ec 3:14. d. of God’s covenant: בְּרִית ע׳ everlasting covenant Gn 9:16; 17:7, 13, 19 Ex 31:16 Lv 24:8 Nu 18:19 (all P), 2 S 23:5 1 Ch 16:17 = ψ 105:10, Is 24:5; 55:3; 61:8 Je 32:40; 50:5 Ez 16:60; 37:26; covenant with Noah, לְדֹרֹת ע׳ Gn 9:12 (P); God remembers it 1 Ch 16:15 = ψ 105:8, ψ 111:5; will not break it, לע׳ Ju 2:1; אוֹת ע׳ Ex 31:17 (P); אוֹת עד ע׳ Dt 28:46. e. of God’s laws: דבר(ים) Is 59:21 ψ 119:89; משׁפט 119:160; עדות v 144, 152; חק ע׳ Ex 29:28; 30:21 (E), Lv 6:11, 15; 7:34; 10:15; 24:9 Nu 18:8, 11, 19 (P), also Je 5:22 (of bounds of sea); חק עד ע׳ Ex 12:24 (J), חֻקַּת ע׳ v 14, 17; 27:21; 28:43; 29:9 Lv 3:17; 7:36; 10:9; 16:29, 31, 34; 17:7; 23:14, 21, 31, 41; 24:3, 8 Nu 10:8; 15:15; 18:23; 19:10, 21 (P) (most of these in fact specif. Jewish and temporary); temple to bear God’s name, עד ע׳ 1 K 9:3 = 2 Ch 7:16; לע׳ 2 K 21:7 2 Ch 33:4; consecrated לע׳ 30:8; its ceremonies לע׳ 2:3; Levit. priesthood, לשׁרתו עד ע׳ 1 Ch 15:2; Aaronic priesthood, לברך בשׁמי עד ע׳ 23:13(×2). f. of God’s promises: his word, יקום לע׳ Is 40:8; promised dynasty of David, עד (ה)ע׳ 2 S 7:13, 16(×2), 25 = 1 Ch 17:12, 14(×2), 23 ψ 18:51 = 2 S 22:51, 1 K 2:33, 45 1 Ch 22:10 ψ 89:5; לע׳ 1 K 9:5 1 Ch 28:4, 7 2 Ch 13:5 ψ 89:29, 37 2 S 7:29(×2) = 1 Ch 17:27(×2); of holy land 1 Ch 28:8, אֲחֻזַּת ע׳ Gn 17:8; 48:4 Lv 25:34 (P); given לע׳ Ex 32:13 (J) 2 Ch 20:7; עד ע׳ Gn 13:15, inherited לע׳ Is 60:21 ψ 37:18; עד ע׳ Is 34:17; dwelt in עד ע׳ Ez 37:25; other blessings, לע׳ Dt 5:29 Ho 2:21; עד ע׳ Dt 12:28 2 S 7:24 = 1 Ch 17:22, ψ 133:3; שִׂמְחַת ע׳ Is 35:10; 51:11; 61:7; דֶּרֶךְ ע׳ ψ 139:24; שׁם ע׳ Is 56:5; 63:12; אות ע׳ 55:13; גאון ע׳ 60:15; Jerus. to abide לע׳ Je 17:25 ψ 125:1, cf. Je 31:40; עד ע׳ ψ 48:9. g. of relations between God and his people, לע׳ 1 Ch 29:18 ψ 45:18; 85:6; 103:9; 145:21 Is 57:16 Je 3:5, 12 La 3:31 Jo 2:26, 27; עד (ה)ע׳ ψ 28:9 Mal 1:4. h. of Messianic dynasty and king: (ל)ע׳ ψ 110:4; having divine throne 45:7; name endures 72:17; established 89:38; God blesses him 45:3; of his reign, מעתה ועד ע׳ Is 9:6. i. = indefinite, unending future: live לע׳ Gn 3:22 Jb 7:16; הנביאים הלע׳ יִחְיוּ Zc 1:5 the prophets, can they live for ever? cf. חדל לע׳ ψ 49:9; c. neg. never Ezr 9:12 Pr 27:24. j. after death: שׁנת ע׳ Je 51:39, 57; בית ע׳ Ec 12:5; חַיֵּי ע׳ Dn 12:2; דראון ע׳ v 2; also v 3 Jon 2:7 Ec 2:16; 9:6. k. = age (duration) of the world: את העלם נתן בְּלִבָּם Ec 3:11 the age of the world he hath set, etc. (cf. especially NH; others i). 1. pl. intens. everlastingness, eternity: תשׁועת עולמים Is 45:17; צדק עלמים Dn 9:24; צור עולמים Is 26:4 (RVm rock of ages); מלכוּת כל עלמים ψ 145:13; also 61:5; 77:8 1 K 8:13 = 2 Ch 6:2. m. special phr.: ם(ה)עולם (ו)עד (ה)עולם (מן) from everlasting to everlasting, of י׳ ψ 90:2, חסד י׳ 103:17; benedictions 1 Ch 16:36 = ψ 106:48, Ne 9:5 1 Ch 29:10 ψ 41:14; the land given למן עולם ועד עולם Je 7:7; 25:5; מעתה ועד עולם from now and for ever ψ 115:18; 121:8 (i.e. as long as one lives); of people’s hope in God 131:3; dynasty of David Is 9:6; of God’s acts, words, etc. Mi 4:7 Is 59:21 ψ 125:2, cf. 113:2;—v. further i. עַד p. 723.
Brown, Francis ; Driver, Samuel Rolles ; Briggs, Charles Augustus: Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon. electronic ed. Oak Harbor, WA : Logos Research Systems, 2000, S. 761
JPS Psalms 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever Thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God.
Brown, Francis ; Driver, Samuel Rolles ; Briggs, Charles Augustus: Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon. electronic ed. Oak Harbor, WA : Logos Research Systems, 2000, S. 761​

 

[rjs330]

Matthew 7 says some will not get into heaven on judgement day. It doesn't say they will never get into heaven. In fact they eventually will, as the same author wrote a few chapters earlier:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

Matthew 7:23 refers to what happens on a "day", not final destiny when God will be "All in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28).

Ditto re the book of life.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Those verses say nothing of the sort. Jesus does save his people from their sins. Mine are saved. Believe in the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved. Whosoever believes in him shall not perish. If you don't believe you don't get in period. What's Revelation say about the Book of Life. If you are not in there you don't get in period. It's the final judgement. There isn't any more after that.

 

[ClementofA]

The word is "hyperbolically" which is the adjective form of "hyperbole.'
E.W. Bullinger, Figures of Speech in the Bible
​

I'm still waiting to be shown a single author, if you can find one, who agrees with you that OLAM means "for ever" except when "hyperbole" is used, as in your comment here:

"I am quite sure the Jewish scholars who translated the JPS OT in 1917 knew the meaning of "olam" therefore the word must mean "for ever."
.....What about those times it is used to mean something which is not eternal? That is called hyperbole."

Here's what you posted:

"עוֹלָם S5769, 5865 TWOT1631a GK6409, 6518439 n.m. long duration, antiquity, futurity;..."

Do you see how that does not agree with your comment above?

 

[mkgal1]

There, we know He is willing...but is He able? I thought about this myself for quite a while, but in the end I realized that God is God, so of course He is able. He is omnipotent. I know a lot of theology has been developed to back up Free Will, but can you really look me in the eye and tell me that your puny human will can ever override God's Will? I think not.

I haven't read through all the posts, but just wanted to say that I don't believe the two are mutually exclusive (our free will and God's omnipotence). I think it's just a matter of the process (humanity's refinement) taking a while and God having endless mercy and grace.