Eternal Torment, Annihilation or Universal Reconciliation?

[lesliedellow]

then either God wants eternal torment or He can do nothing about it -
which one is it?

Nothing happens without God's ordination, and just in case we should feel tempted to judge God for what he ordains, we ought to remember that it is no business of the creature to sit in judgment upon his Creator. To do so would be to get the roles of the judged (us) and the judge (God) precisely the wrong way round.

 

[Der Alte]

Eh... I would say that that passage isn't very hopeful.

Was the rich man being tormented in flames in hades simply because he was rich? In the story of Lazarus and the rich man, Lazarus did not even get the crumbs which fell from the rich mans table. The rich man hardened his heart and shut his hand from his needy brother.

Deuteronomy 15:7 If there be among you a needy man, one of thy brethren, within any of thy gates, in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thy heart, nor shut thy hand from thy needy brother; ​

Not sure what this has to do with heaven's inhabitants seeing their unsaved loved ones in hellish torment. I mean, if one is going to put forth that the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is not a parable, then one has to be open to the possibility that it illustrates, which is that people in heaven will be seeing their loved ones suffering in hell.

Where is it written that it is the norm in paradise for the righteous to be able to see their unsaved loved ones in hades?

Death gets destroyed, so the effects thereof are, likewise, destroyed. Hence, everyone lives, and God wins.

Where does scripture say "the effects thereof [death] are, likewise, destroyed?" In Rev 21:4 it says "there shall be no more death," vs. 5 the one on the throne says "Behold, I make all things new." 3 verses later, in vs. 8, it says there are still groups of people being thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death?

Revelation 21:4
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

 

[Der Alte]

As regards the fate of the Jewish people, early in the gospel of Saint Matthew Jesus' word does correct them re the false teachings of endless torments and annihilation, as follows:
Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

Please show me how Mt 21:21, 2:6 have any relevance whatsoever to the Biblical teaching of "eternal punishment'' cf. Mt 25:46

As to the endless punishment belief of the Pharisees:

Your out-of-context, irrelevant proof texts omitted. None of them specifically address any teaching of the Sadducces and Pharisees.

 

[Major1]

That kind of punishment is hard to fathom. Better to just put them out of their misery. I see no purpose in it at all. It's beyond cruel and paints God as a kind of vengeful despot.

I would say that it show God as one who does exactly what He says He will do.

 

[Rajni]

Nothing happens without God's ordination, and just in case we should feel tempted to judge God for what he ordains, we ought to remember that it is no business of the creature to sit in judgment upon his Creator. To do so would be to get the roles of the judged (us) and the judge (God) precisely the wrong way round.

Would you feel the same if it turned out that God really does triumph over sin, to the benefit of all affected?

It's been said that no one has ever judged anyone. In other words, no one knows anyone well enough to be able to do so; all they have to go on, all they have on hand to judge, are ideas about, or concepts of others. That's what is actually being judged, not the person. Likewise, in this instance, concepts about God, rather than God Himself, are being evaluated.


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[lesliedellow]

Would you feel the same if it turned out that God really does triumph over sin, to the benefit of all affected?

Quote:
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matt 7.13-14)

Likewise, in this instance, concepts about God, rather than God Himself, are being evaluated.

Those concepts appear in the scriptures which God inspired. Therefore to judge them is to judge God.

 

[toLiJC]

Which one do you believe will happen at the final punishment?

A fire that torments, a fire that consumes or a fire that purifies?

The three main views are eternal conscious torment where the unrepentant are tormented by the fire for all eternity, annihilation where the unrepentant are punished according to wrongs committed and then annihilated by the fire, and universal reconciliation where the unrepentant go through a fire that burns impurities away leading to eventual repentance and reconciliation.

edit to add: So far almost 50% of the people in this vote have voted "eternal conscious torment." Can you explain how that view of God is different than say a father who tells his child he must love him back and if not, he will lock him in the back room away from him and he assures his child that this will be like being tormented in flames?

as for the eternal torments, the matter at hand in Scripture is eternal circle, therefore every soul will be in the place of any other soul, albeit successively, and will have the same personality as the other soul (whichever it was or is now), and will go through the same things (which the other soul had gone through) in exactly the same way and order, which is why the message of the Lord/God is that it won't be good for us to cause evil to our neighbor/townsman/cohabitant, otherwise, if we cause, the same evil will be caused to us in future (Matthew 7:1-12) - just think why the so-called current eternity began just about 5-6 millennia ago, and is it possible that there had been nothing before that moment for all that time's infinity (that had been before the beginning of this eternity)?!

Blessings

 

[victorinus]

Nothing happens without God's ordination

so you are sure there is eternal torment
-but-
you are not sure if God wants it?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Go forth and publish, let's see how sound those 217 pages of pro universalism argument are.

It does not take 217 pages - I just wanted to cover ALL the topics. This is all it takes - one verse, II Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (KJV)

There, we know He is willing...but is He able? I thought about this myself for quite a while, but in the end I realized that God is God, so of course He is able. He is omnipotent. I know a lot of theology has been developed to back up Free Will, but can you really look me in the eye and tell me that your puny human will can ever override God's Will? I think not.

 

[ClementofA]

You are arguing with yourself. I have not specified either Pharisees or Sadducees. Were you to actually read my posts I said "Before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of fiery unending punishment and they called it both Gehimmom/Gehenna and sheol/hades." And I quoted credible, verifiable, historical evidence to support that position, which has never been refuted.

Pharisees or not is besides the point which you don't seem to be getting.

As i showed your own quotes of the Jews reject this claim of yours:

"Before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of fiery unending punishment and they called it both Gehimmom/Gehenna and sheol/hades."

Because your quotes of the Jews say Gehenna/hell will be destroyed and pass away.

Therefore these Jews you quoted did not believe it was a "place of...unending punishment", as you claim, because that is impossible for a place that ceases to exist.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[GingerBeer]

I thought about this myself for quite a while, but in the end I realized that God is God, so of course He is able.

God is God and Jesus is God and Jesus said

"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Matthew 25:31-46​

Eternal punishment is not the same thing as going into eternal life, is it?

 

[Rajni]

Quote:
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matt 7.13-14)

I'm not asking for yet another bible quote that could be interpreted six ways to Sunday.

I'm asking you, as an individual, would you feel the same if it turned out that God really does triumph over sin, to the benefit of all affected? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.

Those concepts appear in the scriptures which God inspired. Therefore to judge them is to judge God.

Those concepts are read into the scriptures which God is said to have inspired. If they were actually there, every Christian would be in agreement as to what the passages said, and there wouldn't be the numerous denominations that there are.

Even if it were a case that God was being judged, which again I think would be impossible to do, I'm sure He could more than handle it.

 

[Rajni]

He is omnipotent. I know a lot of theology has been developed to back up Free Will, but can you really look me in the eye and tell me that your puny human will can ever override God's Will? I think not.

Agreed.

Daniel 4:35: "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'

Isaiah 14:27: "For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?"

 

[lesliedellow]

so you are sure there is eternal torment
-but-
you are not sure if God wants it?

If God ordain's something, that something is presumably what he wants to bring about. At least in my version of the English language.

 

[lesliedellow]

I'm not asking for yet another bible quote that could be interpreted six ways to Sunday.

I'm asking you, as an individual, would you feel the same if it turned out that God really does triumph over sin, to the benefit of all affected? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.

Those concepts are read into the scriptures which God is said to have inspired. If they were actually there, every Christian would be in agreement as to what the passages said, and there wouldn't be the numerous denominations that there are.

Even if it were a case that God was being judged, which again I think would be impossible to do, I'm sure He could more than handle it.

For heaven's sake. Do you think there are 999 ways of interpreting "The cat sat on the mat?" or is that only when you don't want to accept what is being said?

 

[victorinus]

If God ordain's something

how do you tell? -
obviously others don't see what you are seeing
-so-
we try to look at what would be reasonable

 

[ClementofA]

Except for what Abraham told the rich man.

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. ​

Those being tormented in flames in Hades cannot escape.

The passage speaks of only one person who was being tormented there. And for all we know his torments were over within 5 minutes. Since Love Almighty is present even in Hades & omnipotent, He can easily relieve anyone's torment anytime that He pleases to do so. Do you deny His unfailing love, omnipresence & omnipotence?

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol/Hades/hell), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

Your version quoted speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

According to the Jews (Pharisees) you love to quote thinking it supports your views, many of the wicked who descend to Gehenna/hell will come up again. Does this passage disprove what the Jews said? Or do you still say that Jesus never contradicted their beliefs?

We are told the rich man requested water. He seemed to think a few drops of water would ease his sufferings. Apparently this isn't served in "hell" (Hades), but whether or not alcohol & morphine is on the menu is not revealed. After all, God is omnipresent.

Luke 16:27-28 seems to show the rich man's concern for others. Perhaps he was beginning to have a change of heart. Supposedly that is the purpose of those in Hades recieving the word of the Lord, in this case via Abraham.

Wrong, again. It certainly disproves universalism.

Any proof that the story of the rich man & Lazarus disproves universalism is totally absent from your post.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[rjs330]

So far almost 50% of the people in this vote have voted "eternal conscious torment." Can you explain how that view of God is different than say a father who tells his child he must love him back and if not, he will lock him in the back room away from him and he assures his child that this will be like being tormented in flames?

Because that is not what God says. He doesn't say love me or else. What he he says is this.
“It’s what comes out of a person that contaminates someone in God’s sight,” he said.“It’s from the inside, from the human heart, that evil thoughts come: sexual sins, thefts, murders,adultery, greed, evil actions, deceit, unrestrained immorality, envy, insults, arrogance, and foolishness.All these evil things come from the inside and contaminate a person in God’s sight.” - Mark 7:20-23 Bible Gateway passage: Mark 7:20-23 - Common English Bible

He also says the the heart of man is exceedingly wicked.

So the real story would be a Father who has an evil son who is exceedingly wicked and evil continually saying "I need you to stop doing that so we can have a relationship. If you don't ever do that you will have to be punished for all your evil and wicked deeds and thoughts. I'm going to give you an opportunity to do just that please take it. I love you despite the fact that you are so evil and I want to give you a chance to stop it because I love you. If you don't stop and take the chance then I am going to have to give you the punishment you deserve for the evil you have done.".

 

[rjs330]

The passage speaks of only one person who was being tormented there. And for all we know his torments were over within 5 minutes. Since Love Almighty is present even in Hades & omnipotent, He can easily relieve anyone's torment anytime that He pleases to do so. Do you deny His unfailing love, omnipresence & omnipotence?

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol/Hades/hell), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

Your version quoted speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

According to the Jews (Pharisees) you love to quote thinking it supports your views, many of the wicked who descend to Gehenna/hell will come up again. Does this passage disprove what the Jews said? Or do you still say that Jesus never contradicted their beliefs?

We are told the rich man requested water. He seemed to think a few drops of water would ease his sufferings. Apparently this isn't served in "hell" (Hades), but whether or not alcohol & morphine is on the menu is not revealed. After all, God is omnipresent.

Luke 16:27-28 seems to show the rich man's concern for others. Perhaps he was beginning to have a change of heart. Supposedly that is the purpose of those in Hades recieving the word of the Lord, in this case via Abraham.



Any proof that the story of the rich man & Lazarus disproves universalism is totally absent from your post.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Seriously? The whole story is evidence of that. There is a man who is safe and man who is in torment who says he doesn't want his relatives to suffer like he is. That in itself is evidence. But if you don't like that how about other words of Jesus who said this.

“Not everybody who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will get into the kingdom of heaven. Only those who do the will of my Father who is in heaven will enter.On the Judgment Day, many people will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name and expel demons in your name and do lots of miracles in your name?’Then I’ll tell them, ‘I’ve never known you. Get away from me, you people who do wrong.’ - Matthew 7:21-23 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:21-23 - Common English Bible

That shows not everyone gets to be with him. And the end if Revelation is key in showing that Universalism is not scriptural. Only the ones whos names are found in the Book of Life are saved.

 

[lesliedellow]

how do you tell? -
obviously others don't see what you are seeing
-so-
we try to look at what would be reasonable

You try to dodge the meaning of sentences which are in no way ambiguous.