Eternal Torment, Annihilation or Universal Reconciliation?

[GodisLove2]

That was a parable. If doctrine were to be established upon it, then one would also have to conclude from it that being a rich man is, in all cases, a direct ticket to hell.

Another problem with taking it as a literal illustration of the afterlife is that it would mean that those in heaven would be able to see their loved ones suffering in hell. Not sure that's going to exactly enhance the bliss of heaven, to be honest.

1. In this case, it is not mentioned that it is a parable. Person names are included in parables.

2. Being rich need not be a ticket to hell. Matthew 19:23-26

3. In heaven they are like angels of heaven. They neither marry or given in marriage. No relationships.

 

[ClementofA]

People get out of "hell" (Lk 16:19-31) in Revelation 20:13-15.

 

[ClementofA]

Every early church father who quoted or referred to the Lazarus/rich man account considered it to be factual .

​

They get out of "hell" in Revelation 20:13-15, if not sooner.

Also at least one of those church fathers was a universalist, as were others:

"Augustine himself, after rejecting apokatastasis, and Basil attest that still late in the fourth and fifth centuries this doctrine was upheld by the vast majority of Christians (immo quam plurimi)."

"Of course there were antiuniversalists also in the ancient church, but scholars must be careful not to list among them — as is the case with the list of “the 68” antiuniversalists repeatedly cited by McC on the basis of Brian Daley’s The Hope of the Early Church — an author just because he uses πῦρ αἰώνιον, κόλασις αἰώνιος, θάνατος αἰώνιος, or the like, since these biblical expressions do not necessarily refer to eternal damnation. Indeed all universalists, from Origen to Gregory Nyssen to Evagrius, used these phrases without problems, for universalists understood these expressions as “otherworldly,” or “long-lasting,” fire, educative punishment, and death. Thus, the mere presence of such phrases is not enough to conclude that a patristic thinker “affirmed the idea of everlasting punishment” (p. 822). Didache mentions the ways of life and death, but not eternal death or torment; Ignatius, as others among “the 68,” never mentions eternal punishment. Ephrem does not speak of eternal damnation, but has many hints of healing and restoration. For Theodore of Mopsuestia, another of “the 68,” if one takes into account also the Syriac and Latin evidence, given that the Greek is mostly lost, it becomes impossible to list him among the antiuniversalists. He explicitly ruled out unending retributive punishment, sine fine et sine correctione.

"I have shown, indeed, that a few of “the 68” were not antiuniversalist, and that the uncertain were in fact universalists, for example, Clement of Alexandria, Apocalypse of Peter, Sibylline Oracles (in one passage), Eusebius, Nazianzen, perhaps even Basil and Athanasius, Ambrose, Jerome before his change of mind, and Augustine in his anti-Manichaean years. Maximus too, another of “the 68,” speaks only of punishment aionios, not aidios and talks about restoration with circumspection after Justinian, also using a persona to express it. Torstein Tollefsen, Panayiotis Tzamalikos, and Maria Luisa Gatti, for instance, agree that he affirmed apokatastasis.

"It is not the case that “the support for universalism is paltry compared with opposition to it” (p. 823). Not only were “the 68” in fact fewer than 68, and not only did many “uncertain” in fact support apokatastasis, but the theologians who remain in the list of antiuniversalists tend to be much less important. Look at the theological weight of Origen, the Cappadocians, Athanasius, or Maximus, for instance, on all of whom much of Christian doctrine and dogmas depends. Or think of the cultural significance of Eusebius, the spiritual impact of Evagrius or Isaac of Nineveh, or the philosophico-theological importance of Eriugena, the only author of a comprehensive treatise of systematic theology and theoretical philosophy between Origen’s Peri Archon and Aquinas’s Summa theologiae. Then compare, for instance, Barsanuphius, Victorinus of Pettau, Gaudentius of Brescia, Maximus of Turin, Tyconius, Evodius of Uzala, or Orientius, listed among “the 68” (and mostly ignorant of Greek). McC’s statement, “there are no unambiguous cases of universalist teaching prior to Origen” (p. 823), should also be at least nuanced, in light of Bardaisan, Clement, the Apocalypse of Peter’s Rainer Fragment, parts of the Sibylline Oracles, and arguably of the NT, especially Paul’s letters.

"Certainly, “there was a diversity of views in the early church on the scope of final salvation.” Tertullian, for instance, did not embrace apokatastasis. But my monograph is not on patristic eschatology or soteriology in general, but specifically on the doctrine of apokatastasis. Thus, I treated the theologians who supported it, and not others."

The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: The Reviews Start Coming In

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research


Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

Scholars directory, with list of publications:

Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf​

 

[Lazarus Short]

Do you "know" that?

Yes - I dug deeper than the surface meanings of certain key words. Surprisingly, the center-column notes in my KJV gave me some good hints, as did Greek/English interlinear texts. The hints begin with Genesis 1:1 which fails to mention Hell in the creation. Given the 217-page book I've written on the basis of my research, I can confidently say I KNOW that God is both willing and able to save all (and will do so).

 

[ClementofA]

…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. Jesus criticized and corrected the Jews a number of times about their false belifs. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.

As regards the fate of the Jewish people, early in the gospel of Saint Matthew Jesus' word does correct them re the false teachings of endless torments and annihilation, as follows:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

As to the endless punishment belief of the Pharisees:

"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

.....Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

[snip]

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

[snip]

"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]:

​

Your own quotes from the Pharisees prove your statement about them to be wrong.

For they disagree with your claim about them, namely your claim that they believed Gehenna to be "a place of everlasting torment of the wicked".

Your own quotes above prove that the Pharisees did NOT believe Gehenna to be "a place of everlasting torment of the wicked".

According to the Pharisees quoted they believed Gehenna to be a place of temporary punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ChristianIssues]

I have gone between eternal torment and annihilation (conditional immortality) for years now. I tend to come back to eternal torment each time.

Can anyone tell me their most convincing argument(s) for eternal torment?

 

[ClementofA]

I have gone between eternal torment and annihilation (conditional immortality) for years now. I tend to come back to eternal torment each time.

Can anyone tell me their most convincing argument(s) for eternal torment?

Eternal torment was the overwhelming position of the "church" during the 1000-1500 years of darkness of the Dark & Middle ages, Inquisitions, Crusades, burnings & torturings of so-called "heretics" by the "church". So it must be true.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[GingerBeer]

If doctrine were to be established upon it, then one would also have to conclude from it that being a rich man is, in all cases, a direct ticket to hell.

Strange that you say that. Jesus came to a similar conclusion. He said

And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it will be for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!" And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, "Then who can be saved?" Jesus looked at them and said, "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."
Mark 10:23-27​

Wealthy people appear to have an uphill battle to be saved.

 

[ChristianIssues]

Eternal torment was the overwhelming position of the "church" during the 1000-1500 years of darkness of the Dark & Middle ages, Inquisitions, Crusades, burnings & torturings of so-called "heretics" by the "church". So it must be true.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Hello there Clement, do you have particular passages that form your position of hell? (whatever that may be).

 

[GingerBeer]

Given the 217-page book I've written on the basis of my research, I can confidently say I KNOW that God is both willing and able to save all (and will do so).

Go forth and publish, let's see how sound those 217 pages of pro universalism argument are.

 

[victorinus]

In other words, die twice: physical death (the separation of the soul from the body) and spiritual death (separation of relationship/communion with God).

body dies - first death
soul dies - second death

 

[ClementofA]

Parable literally means to throw beside. In all of the undisputed parables Jesus uses examples of actual, ordinary things, events from life to explain or teach an unknown Bible truth. Things like lost coins, lost sheep, unwise wedding guests, wayward sons, ungrateful tenants etc., they are all anonymous no names are given. All of the events have actually happened somewhere in history and all of the events would have been familiar to His audience and Jesus could legitimately use them in a parable.
.....The story of Lazarus and the rich man does not use anything from ordinary life to clarify or explain a Bible truth. The only thing in the Lazarus account which would have been familiar to Jesus' audience was a beggar begging and a rich man living lavishly and these two things are not compared to any Bible truth. Jesus' audience would not have known anything about what happens after death and nothing in the account after the death of Lazarus and the rich man is used to compare to any Bible truth.
.....The Lazarus account differs from all the undisputed parables in that they are not anonymous, the names of two people are given Lazarus and Abraham, who was an actual historical person. If the events that Jesus described did not actually happen, if Abraham was not actually in the place stated and if Abraham did not actually speak the words Jesus quoted, then Jesus was a liar.

In any case, the duration, nature & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

We are told the rich man requested water. He seemed to think a few drops of water would ease his sufferings. Apparently this isn't served in "hell" (Hades), but whether or not alcohol & morphine is on the menu is not revealed. After all, God is omnipresent.

Luke 16:27-28 seems to show the rich man's concern for others. Perhaps he was beginning to have a change of heart. Supposedly that is the purpose of those in Hades recieving the word of the Lord, in this case via Abraham.

So does this story do more harm than good for the endless tormenting god position, even if taken literally?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[lesliedellow]

You don't have to like it, but eternal torment seems to be the Bible's view. There is, for example, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

 

[Rajni]

1. In this case, it is not mentioned that it is a parable. Person names are included in parables.

Evidently they are.

2. Being rich need not be a ticket to hell. Matthew 19:23-26

Eh... I would say that that passage isn't very hopeful.

3. In heaven they are like angels of heaven. They neither marry or given in marriage. No relationships.

Not sure what this has to do with heaven's inhabitants seeing their unsaved loved ones in hellish torment. I mean, if one is going to put forth that the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is not a parable, then one has to be open to the possibility that it illustrates, which is that people in heaven will be seeing their loved ones suffering in hell.

body dies - first death
soul dies - second death

Death gets destroyed, so the effects thereof are, likewise, destroyed. Hence, everyone lives, and God wins.

 

[Der Alte]

You don't care if many scholars disagree with your opinion?
I spoke of many scholars, not just one.
Also they include ancient as well as modern scholars.

Irrelevant. A "scholar" giving his/her opinion about historical events, without providing credible, verifiable, historical evidence is no more compelling than any average person giving their opinion.

And BTW JPS translates OLAM as "of old" in Genesis 6:4. Does that sound like "for ever" to you?
JPS Tanakh 1917
The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; the same were the mighty men that were of old(OLAM), the men of renown. (Gen.6:4)

Irrelevant. The Hebrew word "Olam" occurs 414 times in the OT. Of that it is translated as "for ever" 335 times in the JPS. Are you familiar with the word "hyperbole?" Was Peter actually the devil or a rock when Jesus called him that? Were James and John literally sons of thunder when Jesus called them that. Was Herod actually a fox when Jesus called him one.

 

[victorinus]

eternal torment seems to be the Bible's view

then either God wants eternal torment or He can do nothing about it -
which one is it?

 

[Der Alte]

In any case, the duration, nature & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

Except for what Abraham told the rich man.

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. ​

Those being tormented in flames in Hades cannot escape.

We are told the rich man requested water. He seemed to think a few drops of water would ease his sufferings. Apparently this isn't served in "hell" (Hades), but whether or not alcohol & morphine is on the menu is not revealed. After all, God is omnipresent.

If a person were being tormented in flames, would they be thinking logically and coherently? Or would they ask for anything, the least little thing to relieve their suffering?

Luke 16:27-28 seems to show the rich man's concern for others. Perhaps he was beginning to have a change of heart. Supposedly that is the purpose of those in Hades recieving the word of the Lord, in this case via Abraham.

I guess we could sit around and think of all sorts of things that "supposedly" could or might happen. But what did Abraham say to the rich man's request?

NIV Luke 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. ​

So does this story do more harm than good for the endless tormenting god position, even if taken literally?

Wrong, again. It certainly disproves universalism.

 

[Der Alte]

They get out of "hell" in Revelation 20:13-15, if not sooner.​

In those verses does hades refer to the grave or to the place punishment?

Also at least one of those church fathers was a universalist, as were others:

Which one was that? Examples? If Universalism is God's plan why is there so little record of it in the past 2000 years or so.

Isaiah 55:11
(11) so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.​

If Universalism is God's purpose why hasn't God's word achieved His purpose more completely?
I have omitted the rest of your copy/paste. I do not respond to big blocks of copy/pasted arguments.

 

[Der Alte]

Your own quotes from the Pharisees prove your statement about them to be wrong.
For they disagree with your claim about them, namely your claim that they believed Gehenna to be "a place of everlasting torment of the wicked".
Your own quotes above prove that the Pharisees did NOT believe Gehenna to be "a place of everlasting torment of the wicked".
According to the Pharisees quoted they believed Gehenna to be a place of temporary punishment.

You are arguing with yourself. I have not specified either Pharisees or Sadducees. Were you to actually read my posts I said "Before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of fiery unending punishment and they called it both Gehimmom/Gehenna and sheol/hades." And I quoted credible, verifiable, historical evidence to support that position, which has never been refuted.