To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments

[Der Alte]

Jesus said the Pharisees father was Satan the devil, they were children of Hades, and they taught false doctrines and the commandments of men:
"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12). To a Jew, leaven was a bad word. It meant the silent working of evil. At Passover they had to clean the leaven out of their houses. Leaven infects what it touches and turns it into something entirely different. It works silently and slowly, almost unnoticed."
"...He said, “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 5:20)."
"...The average person thought God was exactly like a Pharisee, so Jesus had to deprogram them from the religion they had learned. He called the Pharisees “sons of hell” (Matt. 23:15) and a “brood of vipers” (Matt. 23:33). He told them that their father was the devil (John 8:44). You can envision how stunned the multitudes must have been when they heard Him say this. They had been following the teachings of the Pharisees, who were their religious leaders in the synagogues. Yet, Jesus was performing miracles before their eyes and was calling them out as hypocrites."
“Fence Laws”
"The Pharisees counted all the commandments in the Law of Moses and came up with 613 laws. If those 613 Old Testament commands weren’t cumbersome enough, they invented 1,500 additional man-made restrictions called “fence laws” to keep people from sinning. They assumed that the best way to keep people from breaking God’s Law was to build a fence or a protective barrier around that Law, even though the Lord never told them to do this. Because there were hundreds of these rules, the people were burdened down and miserable trying to keep them all. Jesus told the Pharisees, “You weigh men down with burdens hard to bear, while you yourselves will not even touch the burdens with one of your fingers.”(Luke 11:46). The Pharisees taught you couldn’t carry “a burden” on the Sabbath, and they defined a burden as whatever you could carry on your little finger. Jesus made a play on words by saying, “You will not even touch the burdens with one of your fingers.” "
"Exodus 20:8-10 says, “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the Lord your God; you shall not do any work.” But what does “work” mean? To keep people from laboring on the Sabbath, the Pharisees felt it necessary to define work. And so they defined 39 types of prohibited work so that no one would break the fourth commandment. Here are some of their fence laws:
 You could not spit on the Sabbath because it would disturb the dust on the ground and you would become guilty of plowing.
 You could not swat a fly on the Sabbath because you would become guilty of hunting.
 A woman could not look at her reflection because she might see a gray hair and pluck it out, which would be doing work.
They created loopholes to get around some laws.
 If your house was burning down on a Sabbath, you could not carry clothes out of it. However, you were permitted to put on several layers of clothes as the house was burning, and you could leave without breaking their law because you were wearing them instead of carrying them!
 On the Sabbath day, you could not travel more than 3/5 mile from your house. However, you could leave food 3/5 mile from your home on the night before, which would make it permissible to travel twice the distance without breaking the law.

"Keeping these man-made fence laws actually became more important to them than keeping God’s Word. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees saying, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?” (Matt. 15:3) Jesus deliberately broke their fence laws to demonstrate that these commands did not come from God. It was as if Jesus was trying to create a gigantic chasm between them so that people could see the difference between truth and error. Jesus told them, “You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!” (Matt. 23:24). The Pharisees were extremely careful to not eat anything unclean, so they would strain their wine though a piece of cloth, just to make sure that a gnat didn’t get in it. They shuddered at the thought of swallowing a gnat. Jesus said that they strained out a gnat, the smallest unclean animal, but didn’t seem to notice when they gulped down a camel, which was the largest unclean animal. Clearly their man-made traditions and fence laws were the gnats they had been straining, while not noticing God’s Law that they were breaking."
continued at:
http://storage.cloversites.com/makinglifecountministriesinc/documents/Who were the Pharisees_2.pdf

​

​

This is a discussion forum. Discussion consists of two or more people talking to one another sharing their beliefs, thoughts, ideas etc. "Discussion" does not consist of copy/pasting large blocks of canned arguments from anonymous websites written by anonymous people with no stated expertise in Hebrew, Greek, Bible history etc. Here is a link to the Talmud Tractate Sabbath if you want to read what the Jews really believed about working on the Sabbath. http://www.nommeraadio.ee/meedia/pdf/RRS/Babylonian Talmud.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

​

This is a discussion forum. Discussion consists of two or more people talking to one another sharing their beliefs, thoughts, ideas etc. "Discussion" does not consist of copy/pasting large blocks of canned arguments from anonymous websites written by anonymous people with no stated expertise in Hebrew, Greek, Bible history etc. Here is a link to the Talmud Tractate Sabbath if you want to read what the Jews really believed about working on the Sabbath. http://www.nommeraadio.ee/meedia/pdf/RRS/Babylonian Talmud.pdf

So says the king of large copy & pasted posts of other people's comments, often much longer than mine. LOL.

BTW you haven't answered my post # 356 in this thread.

 

[Der Alte]

. . . [Irrelevant repetitive diatribe omitted] . . .
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Specious irrelevant objections. Trying to refute ancient Jewish writings from the NT is ridiculous. The ancient Jews did not have the NT to refer to! Even many Christians of Jesus day and many years afterward did not have the NT it was in the process of being written.
Note in this post the scriptures are highlighted in blue

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.

 

[ClementofA]

Linking to/quoting from a website maintained by an anonymous person with no stated qualifications relevant to this discussion e.g. Hebrew, Greek, Bible history etc.

​

1. The author's name was given, not anonymous.

2. The book is full of quotes from scholars.

3. You are no specialist scholar but quote them often, just as this book does.

4. Evidently you are trying to discredit a book that does what you yourself do continually (see 2 & 3 above).

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Der Alte]

So says the king of large copy & pasted posts of other people's comments, often much longer than mine. LOL.
BTW you haven't answered my post # 256 in this thread.

Some people do not know the difference between copying quotes from reference sources such as encyclopedias and historical sources such as the Talmud in support of a point of discussion and someone's entire "argument" consisting of a large block of "stuff" copy/pasted from an anonymous website, maintained by an anonymous person with no stated qualifications in Hebrew, Greek, Bible history etc.
Sorry, you did not write post #256 in this thread. That was posted by Vinsight4u.

 

[Der Alte]

Hebrews speaks of those who reject Christ as deserving a "sorer" punishment than death by Moses' law, i.e. stoning:
10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.
Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would suffer endless torments in fire, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is a sadist for all eternity.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Nothing here to address. Just some unsupported opinions tantamount to saying, "I'm right and you're wrong Am too! Nuh Huh!" Maybe your guy over at tentmaker's has a credible argument where he quotes a few scholars.

 

[ClementofA]

Specious irrelevant objections. Trying to refute ancient Jewish writings from the NT is ridiculous. The ancient Jews did not have the NT to refer to! Even many Christians of Jesus day and many years afterward did not have the NT it was in the process of being written.

​

Actually, you are the one who said "Jesus never contradicted these Jewish beliefs" (fables). If Jesus' beliefs as recorded in the Bible cannot be used to prove the Jews' fairy tales were myths, then how is it possible to do what you ask & prove by the Lord's words that He thought they were myths? As i pointed out, the Jewish beliefs were either not in the Word of God or they are against what He teaches. Scripture contains Jesus' beliefs and His beliefs go against the Pharisees' fairy tales. Therefore you err in saying "Jesus never contradicted these Jewish beliefs" (fables).

"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf​

 

[ClementofA]

Some people do not know the difference between copying quotes from reference sources such as encyclopedias and historical sources such as the Talmud in support of a point of discussion and someone's entire "argument" consisting of a large block of "stuff" copy/pasted from an anonymous website, maintained by an anonymous person with no stated qualifications in Hebrew, Greek, Bible history etc.
Sorry, you did not write post #256 in this thread. That was posted by Vinsight4u.

I was referring to you doing exactly what you criticize in this comment of yours:

"This is a discussion forum. Discussion consists of two or more people talking to one another sharing their beliefs, thoughts, ideas etc. "Discussion" does not consist of copy/pasting large blocks of canned arguments..."

The post referred to should have been # 356. My mistake. Sorry.

 

[Der Alte]

I was referring to you doing exactly what you criticize in this comment of yours:
"This is a discussion forum. Discussion consists of two or more people talking to one another sharing their beliefs, thoughts, ideas etc. "Discussion" does not consist of copy/pasting large blocks of canned arguments..."
The post referred to should have been # 356. My mistake. Sorry.

Guess you didn't read or could not understand my previous post. Have you ever studied at the post graduate level? Have you ever done research for a writing assignment at that level. I have done both. Here is an example of post graduate research and writing from.
A Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research by A.T. Robertson

(i) Nouns in the Predicate. These may have the article also. As already explained, the article is not essential to speech. It is, however, "invaluable as a means of gaining precision, e.g. theos en o logos"' As a rule the predicate is without the article, even when the subject uses it. Cf. 'ego anthropos eimi (Lu. 7:8).
This is in strict accord with the ancient idiom.' Gildersleeve {Syntax, p. 324) notes that the predicate is usually something new and therefore the article is not much used except in convertible propositions. Winer,^ indeed, denies that the subject may be known from the predicate by its having the article. But the rule holds wherever the subject has the article and the predicate does not. The subject is then definite and distributed, the predicate indefinite and undistributed. The word with the article is then the subject, whatever the order may be. So in Jo. 1 : 1, theos en o logos, the subject is perfectly clear. p.767​

Note how the author states a premise then quotes other scholars in support of that premise, which is what I do. You on the other don't research anything just copy/paste a canned argument by someone else.
.

 

[ClementofA]

Guess you didn't read or could not understand my previous post.

I understood it & responded according to how i have already explained to you.

As for my post re the Pharisees, I replied to your comment by saying (& i quote myself):

"Jesus said the Pharisees' father was Satan the devil, they were children of Hades, and they taught false doctrines and the commandments of men:"

Then i supported that comment of mine with the commentary quoted, including the Scriptures in it that agree with everything i said. Something that you do quite often.

If you don't like your beloved endless torment myth quotes by the Pharisees you love to quote in your weak attempts to support it being trashed by the Lord Jesus, i suggest you take that up with Him.

"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Der Alte]

1. The author's name was given, not anonymous.

By anonymous I mean who is the author, what are his qualifications on this subject? The book you linked to appears to be privately published. Anybody can do this, put some writings together, take it to a publisher, shell out a few hundred up to a few thousand dollars and voila you are a "published"author. But having something printed in a book does not make it worth reading.

2. The book is full of quotes from scholars.

Yes the "book" has many quotes from some people. Here is one.

Fire of Gehenna The second pillar in support of the doctrine of everlasting punishment is Gehenna. It is one of three words translated ―hell‖ in the New Testament. It is the most common, used twelve times. Hades is used eleven times, and Tartarus only once. William Barclay stated:

Gehenna…means the Valley of Hinnom, a valley to the southwest of Jerusalem. It was notorious as the place where Ahaz had introduced the fire worship of the heathen God Molech, to whom little children were burned.…2 Chronicles 28:2-4. Josiah had stamped out that worship and ordered that the valley should be forever after an accursed place…it became the place where the refuse of Jerusalem was cast out and destroyed. It was a kind of public incinerator. Always the fire smoldered in it, and a pall of thick smoke lay over it, and bred a loathsome kind of worm which was hard to kill (Mark 9:44-48). So Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnom, became identified in people‘s minds with all that was accursed and filthy, the place where useless and evil things were destroyed.¹⁴ See #1 Appendix V.
APPENDIX V 1 Vincent, Marvin. Word Studies in the New Testament- 2nd Ed. Mclean, VA: Mcdonald Publishing. 1888. Vol. I 40.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf​

There are some glaring problems with this quote. What is the name of the publication this is quoted from, where and when was it published should someone want more information? Who is William Barclay and why should we listen to him? I know the answer but many people do not. Just because some guy quotes it does not make it credible.
.....And there is the glaring error that the information about Gehenna is false and the writer of this book should know that. I have posted this evidence more than once.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); . . .
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism ​

3. You are no specialist scholar but quote them often, just as this book does.

I have never claimed to be a specialist or scholar, that is why I quote the experts, not random books online.

4. Evidently you are trying to discredit a book that does what you yourself do continually (see 2 & 3 above).

No, I am discrediting your posts because you don't do your own talking, everything you post is copy/pasted from some questionable website. I do my own talking, I state my premises and quote credible, verifiable, historical evidence which can be readily verified, to support those premises.​

 

[ClementofA]

Yes the "book" has many quotes from some people. Here is one.

Fire of Gehenna The second pillar in support of the doctrine of everlasting punishment is Gehenna. It is one of three words translated ―hell‖ in the New Testament. It is the most common, used twelve times. Hades is used eleven times, and Tartarus only once. William Barclay stated:

Gehenna…means the Valley of Hinnom, a valley to the southwest of Jerusalem. It was notorious as the place where Ahaz had introduced the fire worship of the heathen God Molech, to whom little children were burned.…2 Chronicles 28:2-4. Josiah had stamped out that worship and ordered that the valley should be forever after an accursed place…it became the place where the refuse of Jerusalem was cast out and destroyed. It was a kind of public incinerator. Always the fire smoldered in it, and a pall of thick smoke lay over it, and bred a loathsome kind of worm which was hard to kill (Mark 9:44-48). So Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnom, became identified in people‘s minds with all that was accursed and filthy, the place where useless and evil things were destroyed.¹⁴ See #1 Appendix V.
APPENDIX V 1 Vincent, Marvin. Word Studies in the New Testament- 2nd Ed. Mclean, VA: Mcdonald Publishing. 1888. Vol. I 40.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf​

There are some glaring problems with this quote. What is the name of the publication this is quoted from, where and when was it published should someone want more information?

Didn't you just post the answers to your own questions above? Namely:

"Vincent, Marvin. Word Studies in the New Testament- 2nd Ed. Mclean, VA: Mcdonald Publishing. 1888. Vol. I 40."

That reference is from the book.

.....And there is the glaring error that the information about Gehenna is false and the writer of this book should know that.

If there isn't a mistake in a book that size, i'd be surprised. No one said it was the inerrant Word of God.

No, I am discrediting your posts because you don't do your own talking, everything you post is copy/pasted from some questionable website.
​

Obviously that isn't true. The book i linked to has references to help people look up the quotes in the original sources, should they wish to do so. Likewise your JE articles do the same thing.

I do my own talking, I state my premises and quote credible, verifiable, historical evidence which can be readily verified, to support those premises.

Those are often from 2nd or 3rd hand sources, e.g. Jewish Encyclopedia (JE). How unbiased the JE is is debatable. Look for example at the article on the Pharisees. Compiled around 1900 it is also out of date, e.g. the Dead Sea Scrolls were not discovered yet.​

OTOH i've been known to post the original Greek from extrabiblical sources, rather than a mere biased opinion (IOW, what is often termed a translation). That original Greek is a primary source & as such is a more credible source than 2nd, 3rd & 4th hand sources.

 

[BukiRob]

They are literal events as Jesus tells them.
Jesus never made up any fiction nor have
need to.

You are correct, most humans need to make stuff up.
Jesus did not need to do so.

You do not have one iota of evidence to support the concept that the parables are literal.

The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" He replied, "Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

Matthew 13:10-13



Speaking in parables was not a new teaching tool for Yeshua to use; in fact, it was a common literary and speaking device for Greek Philosophers, as well as Rabbis, in YYeshua's time to communicate the point.

It is patently absurd to assume that the parables are or should be taken litterally.

 

[BukiRob]

What modern day rabbis and MJ believe is irrelevant! What did the Jews before and during the time of Jesus believe? I did not post anything about my culture. Guess you did not notice I quoted from two historic Jewish sources the 1915 Jewish Encyclopedia [JE] and the pre-Christian Talmud both available online and I provided links. I also compared what Jesus taught to what the historic Jewish sources say. If your believing rabbis and MJ friends are telling you something different than what I quoted they are either willfully disingenuous or woefully ignorant of Jewish history. For your information both the JE and Talmud are available online and I linked to both for those who are interested in documented Jewish history vice the revisionism one evidently gets from modern "believing rabbis" and MJ friends.

Wrong. But we have butted heads over this topic before. Pointless to discuss this with you.

No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.


It's funny that you a goy, are going to "teach" on what the "correct" view of the Talmud and by extension, what the Jewish view on the afterlife is... unfortunately for you, that view is NOT the prevalent view. Sadducees, for example, did not believe in the resurrection while the Pharisee's DID believe in the resurrection, and in fact, Yeshua would have been considered a Pharisee by his teachings.

The CLEAR unmistakable view found in the Talmud teaches the Olam Ha Ba: the World to Come, although this term is also used to refer to the messianic age.

MUCH of the Talmud contains SERIOUS Error as it is not a proper view of Scripture. The unmistable, clear OT view is there is 0 mention of Hell. NONE what so EVER.

 

[BukiRob]

As you said it is the Scriptures which contain the truth not man's opinions and traditions including yours.
When Jesus taught about eternal punishment, where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die etc. did He ever correct the false beliefs [according to you] that many Jews had about hell? He corrected their false teachings on many occasions "You have heard it said...but I say to you." But Jesus never once said their teaching on hell was false.

You can try to explain away all the Scriptures that support eternal punishment but alas you cannot.. Waterloo my foot! Fallible, finite man does not decide the character or nature of God.

Wrong yet again. The PUNISHMENT indeed is eternal. You have yet to explain how the sinner is alive when scripture plainly states that the result of the sinner being cast into the lake of fire is DEATH.

I eagerly await your answer. Considering that is, as I recall, the 3rd or 4th time Ive asked you this question and you have NEVER answered it.

Furthermore, please explain how it is that the righteous are raised from the dead where they will put on IMMORTALITY (eternal life) and their bodies are transformed into bodies that are incorruptible. Since we MUST PUT ON IMMORTALITY, we are by extension MORTAL apart from Messiah giving the gift of immortality. One does not take on something you already have....

Man is Mortal and as such when they are cast into the LOF they DIE that which is DEAD is DEAD, NOT ALIVE.

 

[SkyWriting]

Speaking in parables was not a new teaching tool for Yeshua to use; in fact, it was a common literary and speaking device for Greek Philosophers, as well as Rabbis, in YYeshua's time to communicate the point.
It is patently absurd to assume that the parables are or should be taken litterally.

I have determined that Jesus always told the truth, and not one of His stories were fictional.
Telling true stories to make a point goes to the beginning of time, further than even the Greeks.
God used true stories to teach men Truth. Jesus continues that tradition.
Thanks for the challenge.

 

[SkyWriting]

The PUNISHMENT indeed is eternal. You have yet to explain how the sinner is alive when scripture plainly states that the result of the sinner being cast into the lake of fire is DEATH.

"2nd death" scripturally.
No matter. There is no "time" in the Spirit world so everything is "Eternal" there.

 

[BukiRob]

I have determined that Jesus always told the truth, and not one of His stories were fictional.
Telling true stories to make a point goes to the beginning of time, further than even the Greeks.
God used true stories to teach men Truth. Jesus continues that tradition.
Thanks for the challenge.

Parables are a teaching tool. Nothing more, nothing less. You are trying to insert something to fit your predetermined argument and are avoiding what was commonly used by the population of the day.

The idea that you believe the parables are TRUE accounts is a pure fantasy of your own making.

28So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Clearly, since the judgment has not occurred this is a parable teaching a spiritual truth using an allegory since it is IMPOSSIBLE for this to have happened in the past.

 

[BukiRob]

"2nd death" scripturally.
No matter. There is no "time" in the Spirit world so everything is "Eternal" there.

Death is dead. That which is dead is not alive and is therefore NOT CONCEOUS

 

[Der Alte]

Didn't you just post the answers to your own questions above? Namely:

"Vincent, Marvin. Word Studies in the New Testament- 2nd Ed. Mclean, VA: Mcdonald Publishing. 1888. Vol. I 40."​

That reference is from the book.

Wrong! The quote I referred to was allegedly from William Barclay. The Vincent reference was a footnote by the Garry Beauchemin, who put the book together.
Here are Beauchemin's qualifications from his biography.

What makes Gerry confident He is qualified to write on this theme?
He has extensively reflected upon, read the works of others, and for many years wrestled with and studied the Scriptures on this theme. He has found solid Biblical evidence for his conclusion of hope. He has agonized for most of his life over hell and understands the contradictions it brings upon the Christian faith.
Gerry Beauchemin​

The book "Hope Beyond Hell" was published by Malista Press, Olmito Texas a thriving metropolis of 1,198 people.

If there isn't a mistake in a book that size, i'd be surprised. No one said it was the inerrant Word of God.

That is why real books, by real scholars are reviewed by competent scholars to ensure, as much as possible, that errors are corrected.

Obviously that isn't true. The book i linked to has references to help people look up the quotes in the original sources, should they wish to do so. Likewise your JE articles do the same thing.

Many of the "references" in your book do not provide enough information for proper research, i.e. title, author, publisher, publishing date and page numbers.
Quite wrong the quote I posted did not give the name of the publication/book, publishers name, the date or page number. So which of Barclay's many writings should one look for the quote in?

Those are often from 2nd or 3rd hand sources, e.g. Jewish Encyclopedia (JE). How unbiased the JE is is debatable. Look for example at the article on the Pharisees. Compiled around 1900 it is also out of date, e.g. the Dead Sea Scrolls were not discovered yet.

You still don't comprehend the difference between quoting primary standard sources, such as an encyclopedia and the Talmud which are scholastically recognized and an obviously self published book by a person with no stated qualifications.
Something being old does not automatically mean it is out dated. If anything in the DSS/Q scrolls refutes anything I quoted then it must be shown not just assumed.

OTOH i've been known to post the original Greek from extrabiblical sources, rather than a mere biased opinion (IOW, what is often termed a translation). That original Greek is a primary source & as such is a more credible source than 2nd, 3rd & 4th hand sources.

How many hours of Koine Greek have you had and what qualifies you to determine when a translation is "a mere biased opinion?" What I find is people who don't know an aorist from an aardvark presuming to correct the translation of the Greek text and funny how the supposedly "correct translation" always just happens to fit their heterodox assumptions/presuppositions.