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To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments

ClementofA

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I agree, and let me add:

If everyone is saved, there would be no need to tell them about the sacrifice and the magnitude of God becoming man to save them, because they would find out after they die anyway, and the actions people take, good or evil would make no difference in the end. This means that nothing anybody does in this life, has any meaning. If all are saved, regardless of believing and being baptised in the Spirit, then we have a bigger problem than sin; the problem of God having no sense of justice.

Universalism is an antichrist doctrine.

I don't see anyone here with a hope or belief in universalism saying what you do about it above. Please look up the definition of universalism so you don't misrepresent it again in the future.

From Webster's Dictionary:

"a theological doctrine that all human beings will eventually be saved"

From Wikipedia:

"Christian Universalism is a school of Christian theology which includes the belief in the doctrine of universal reconciliation, the view that all human beings will ultimately be restored to a right relationship with God..."

"...Christian Universalists disagree on whether or not Hell exists. However, they do agree that if it does, the punishment there is corrective and remedial, and does not last forever.[11]"

From Theopedia:

"Universalism is the theological view arguing that all persons will ultimately be saved."
 
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ClementofA

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Wrong X 4. Suppose someone who presents him/herself as a Christian witnessing to lost people, saying "There is no hell. There is no eternal punishment God will save everyone no matter what." Will that encourage lost people to repent? Or will it encourage lawlessness since, as some people say, everyone will be saved no matter what?
.....I saw a PSA some time ago a young lady was walking down a train track, a train was approaching in the background. Beside the train tracks was another young later who said, "She is my friend and I want to help her but I don't want to make here mad by telling her that's dangerous." Or something like that. Well we are the ones walking beside the track should we warn people or not?

No endless hell does not mean there is no hell. No endless punishment does not rule out punishment completely. Punishment for months, years or eons is not nothing.

Obviously an endless hell is not needed to motivate people to do be lawful. The threat of a child being grounded or spanked for lieing or stealing a cookie may work just as well.

When punishments are out of sync with what is just, such as endless sadism for stealing a cookie, millions of people will never even consider the Good News of Christ. Millions of others have forsaken being church members and quit believing in Jesus.

That may explain why many preachers today seldom, if ever, teach on the subject of endless hell, even though it is the official view of their denominations.

What has the threat of endless hell been associated with? The dawn of the Dark & Middle Ages, Inquisitions, Crusades, burning of heretics with fire, etc.

It's the 'God of the eternal Auschwitz doctrine' !
 
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Der Alte

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No endless hell does not mean there is no hell. No endless punishment does not rule out punishment completely. Punishment for months, years or eons is not nothing.
Obviously an endless hell is not needed to motivate people to do be lawful. The threat of a child being grounded or spanked for lieing or stealing a cookie may work just as well.
When punishments are out of sync with what is just, such as endless sadism for stealing a cookie, millions of people will never even consider the Good News of Christ. Millions of others have forsaken being church members and quit believing in Jesus.
That may explain why many preachers today seldom, if ever, teach on the subject of endless hell, even though it is the official view of their denominations.
What has the threat of endless hell been associated with? The dawn of the Dark & Middle Ages, Inquisitions, Crusades, burning of heretics with fire, etc.
It's the 'God of the eternal Auschwitz doctrine' !
That didn't take long. 15 pages. Godwin's law, ""As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."
Finite, fallible men do not decide what is just, moral etc for God. The argument usually goes something like this "I am moral, just, considerate etc. I think that eternal punishment is sadistic, and excessive. God must be moral, just, considerate etc. just as I am so He would not send anyone to eternal punishment."
I see this same argument over and over and over "The dawn of the Dark & Middle Ages, Inquisitions, Crusades, burning of heretics with fire." Or "When Christians were brought into the church, to make it more appealing to them they were allowed to keep their pagan beliefs about hell etc."
Long before the crusades and Greek Christians among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught about,
• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1
Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.
“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism
 
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ClementofA

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Long before the crusades and Greek Christians among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Why should i care? In ancient times there was also a belief in universalism & a belief in annihilationism, just like there was in the Early Church Fathers . It is the Scriptures that contain the truth, not man's opinions or traditions.

You can try to explain away all the Scriptures that support universalism, but you can't twist the character of God as revealed therein. That's where your position meets its Waterloo. God is Love, not a sadist. End of story.

The end.
 
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BukiRob

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Actually, there is no evidence that any parable was fiction based.
Why would Yeshua have to invent any story?
Average people need to synthesize a story.

Oh please, parables by nature are NOT to be taken literally
 
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BukiRob

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What made you think that was just a parable?
Have you bothered to read what occurs before and after? A parable before, a parable after.

Most of you dont even understand what the parable is about... its about the Jews and believing Goyim...
 
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BukiRob

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Much of this post is not factual. Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught about,
• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1
Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.
“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. . First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism
,


I will side what I have heard out of the mouth of believing rabbi's and messianic Jews thank you I think they are a bit more informed on their own culture than you
 
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Der Alte

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Why should i care? In ancient times there was also a belief in universalism & a belief in annihilationism, just like there was in the Early Church Fathers . It is the Scriptures that contain the truth, not man's opinions or traditions.
As you said it is the Scriptures which contain the truth not man's opinions and traditions including yours.
When Jesus taught about eternal punishment, where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die etc. did He ever correct the false beliefs [according to you] that many Jews had about hell? He corrected their false teachings on many occasions "You have heard it said...but I say to you." But Jesus never once said their teaching on hell was false.

You can try to explain away all the Scriptures that support universalism, but you can't twist the character of God as revealed therein. That's where your position meets its Waterloo. God is Love, not a sadist. End of story.
The end.
You can try to explain away all the Scriptures that support eternal punishment but alas you cannot.. Waterloo my foot! Fallible, finite man does not decide the character or nature of God.
 
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Der Alte

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I will side what I have heard out of the mouth of believing rabbi's and messianic Jews thank you I think they are a bit more informed on their own culture than you
What modern day rabbis and MJ believe is irrelevant! What did the Jews before and during the time of Jesus believe? I did not post anything about my culture. Guess you did not notice I quoted from two historic Jewish sources the 1915 Jewish Encyclopedia [JE] and the pre-Christian Talmud both available online and I provided links. I also compared what Jesus taught to what the historic Jewish sources say. If your believing rabbis and MJ friends are telling you something different than what I quoted they are either willfully disingenuous or woefully ignorant of Jewish history. For your information both the JE and Talmud are available online and I linked to both for those who are interested in documented Jewish history vice the revisionism one evidently gets from modern "believing rabbis" and MJ friends.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Have you bothered to read what occurs before and after? A parable before, a parable after.

Most of you dont even understand what the parable is about... its about the Jews and believing Goyim...

continue...
 
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ClementofA

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As you said it is the Scriptures which contain the truth not man's opinions and traditions including yours.
When Jesus taught about eternal punishment, where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die etc. did He ever correct the false beliefs [according to you] that many Jews had about hell? He corrected their false teachings on many occasions "You have heard it said...but I say to you." But Jesus never once said their teaching on hell was false.


If Scripture is the only infallible truth, why are we still talking about men's opinions?

When Jesus taught universalism He opposed any positions to the contrary that His listeners held.

Jesus taught aionion correction, not eternal punishment.

Re unextinguished fire, people in fire can be saved, as we see in the OT book of Daniel. God Himself is a consuming fire able to convict & purify men's souls for their own good. People that go into a fire can also come out of it. Fire that is unextinguished by man or rain, etc, may still eventually go out on its own due to lack of fuel. If you have a fireplace you can test this by lighting it up. Don't extinguish it & see if it goes out on its own.



Fallible, finite man does not decide the character or nature of God.

Scripture does. It says God is love. Not love until people die & then an eternal sadist to billions.

Jesus said to love your enemies. Endless torments would make Him the worst hypocrite of all time.
 
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ClementofA

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• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
...In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence.

It's better for a man not to be born, but to die inside the mother, than to live an evil life. The evil man will suffer God's corrective punishment for his salvation. If he died before being born he would be innocent & not needing such a disciplinary action.

A similar interpretation states:

"Better had Judas not been born? Mt. 26:24 This passage does not say that it would have been better for Judas if his mother had never conceived him, only that he not had been born. There is a big difference. Ec. 6:3 says, ―If a man begets a hundred children and lives many years...but his soul is not satisfied with goodness...I say that a stillborn child is better than he. It could be the same with Judas; ―Woe to that man…it would have been good for that man if he had not been born [but stillborn]."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

And for another take on the passage:

Was it better for Judas had he not been born
 
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ClementofA

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• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6

...In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence.

Being drowned is a rather light punishment, if it can even be considered bad. After all, everyone dies. And drowning is a relatively quick & painless death. Comparing that to an endless hell in fiery torments is ridiculous. It's like comparing a drop in the ocean to a universe full of water. Therefore Jesus' statement in Matthew 18:6 actually strongly opposes the doctrine of endless hell. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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Galilee63

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Final eternal Judgement Holy Purgatory Heaven and Hell period

Most of us whom have as Christians read Gods Holy Word with prayer to Jesus and The Holy Spirit God our Heavenly Father and asked for Holy Discernment have received it on these matters

Further Jesus has been appearing to His Holy appointed His Saints Nuns many of them each Century explaining that many souls are lost to Him in Judgement not having received His Mercy and they go to hell to satan and the evil spirits if The do not make Purgatory to be suffering the worst Holy Cleansing in fiery heat furnace temps unimaginable to us on earth and Jesus explained this in His Old and New Testament in relation to Prison and court systems meaning Purgatory Hell with someone taking you when old where you do not want to go and another being locked away after going to court

Court being God our Heavenly Fathers Judgement with Jesus and Holy Spirit so strart turning to Mother Mary including our Heavenly Mother Mary thru and with Jesus and Holy Spirit because after receiving Jesus Holy Spirit God my Heavenly Father and yours with Mother Mary into my heart I can tell you that most people at time of Judgement will be very very sad and disappointed that they did not take Hell or Purgatory seriously nor did they feel or think or read about our Blessed Heavenly Queen of Heavens Most Holy Role of God The Most Highs as Queen of Mercy thru God and by God my Heavenly Father Himself

Many many souls saved thru Mother Mary imploring to Jesus for His Mercy when they were on their way to Hell including some religious souls whom were given the verdict instantaneously knowing they deserved hell yet came back here out of unconsciousness because of Mother Mary imploring Jesus God and Holy Spirit humbly to take that soul and work with them here again not posting these Religious again too many
 
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2PhiloVoid

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And the billions of people who have died without knowing about hell? Too bad you weren't around for God to use to tell them about it.

Jesus NEVER mentioned hell. Not once. I mean, how dare he put peoples' souls in jeopardy by not telling them about it. Of course, I'm being facetious trying to make a point.

Eleven times Jesus spoke of the Valley of Hinnom (aka Gehenna), which is incorrectly translated "hell" in many bibles, and each time he was speaking to the people of Israel. He used a phrase the nation of Israel would have understood as divine punishment for an unrepentant nation. It was not thought of as individual hell fire and eternal torment; it was basically saying that judgment was coming to the nation. The eleventh occurrence is in Mt. 23:33 and just three verses later Jesus said, “Verily I say unto you, all these things shall come upon this generation.”

I actually agree with you on a general level about your interpretation of Mt. 23:33 and the actual application of Gehenna and so forth. However, where we differ, I sure, is in the overall contexts and connotations.
 
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Galilee63

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Because we all most of us have had the opportunity to turn to Jesus I am The Way The Life and The Truth to The Father Jesus said and Believe in The Good News and repentance of sins are to be done in My Name

To receive His Mercy now and at the hour of death in Final Judgement
 
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Galilee63

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Heaven Holy Purgatory and Hell the Abyss of Helll the gates of Hades will never prevail over His Church through Saint Peter and His Disciples Jesus said with God and The Holy Spirit a reminder to us all to keep turning to Jesus His Church His Sacred Heart and to receive continually His Blessed Holy Sacraments from Hearts open to Him in Love and gratitude
 
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SkyWriting

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Oh please, parables by nature are NOT to be taken literally

They are literal events as Jesus tells them.
Jesus never made up any fiction nor have
need to.

You are correct, most humans need to make stuff up.
Jesus did not need to do so.
 
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claninja

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They are literal events as Jesus tells them.
Jesus never made up any fiction nor have
need to.
You are correct, most humans need to make stuff up.
Jesus did not need to do so.

I think I get what you are saying, but correct me if I am wrong. The settings Jesus use are never fake. For example the parable of the sower: Farmers really do sow seed. The parable of the of the mustard seed or parable of yeast. All these are about real physical things. Therefore, the setting for the parable of the richman and lazarus is real.

Is that close?
 
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